Orcus CRT

[Qawsedf234]

So the page for Orcus has some issues I want to tackle now

AP

His current justifcations are

• Can control the space-time of multiple layers of the Abyss.

• Comparable to Demogorgon

• other demonic lords, who can control the form and workings of their entire infinite layers, some of whom can also control multiple infinite layers, as well.

Now my issues with the following are this

• Orcus has never once controlled multiple layers of the Abyss. So this is just not provable and needs to be removed

• He is not comparable to Demogorgon. Every single time they've fought Demogorgon has crushed or defeated Orcus. Here's just some random examples that I currently have on hand: Defeats Orcus in a 1 vs 1 fight and forces him to another Abyss layer,he defeats Orcus and four other Demon Lords at once, and when Demogorgon claimed his title as Prince of Demons he defeated Orcus when he had dozens of other Demon Lords fighting Demogorgo

• This is actually completely fine imo. Orcus and Graz'zt are rough equals and Graz'zt controls three entire Abyss Layers

So my recommendation is this

• Remove the "controlling multiple Abyss layers" thing

• Change "Comparable to Demogorgon" to "Capable of fighting Demogorgon"

For his first key his AP is 2-C based on this

• While not as powerful as his former self, he was perfectly capable of fighting against deities such as Maanzecorian

This is fine since he did actually fight the god and it was rated as an Intermediate deity. But adding scans of this would be a good idea.

For his avatar... well it needs to be nerfed hard. His avatar's challenge rating is a 22 and his main body (when not in the Abyss) is rated at 28. As such my suggestions are this

• His avatar becomes "At least 6-C"

• His main body becomes "At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B, possibly much higher" when out of the Abyss

Speed

• While I'm mostly fine with the infinite speed ratings, his avatar rating is far to low. It needs to be changed to At least Hypersonic+, with High Hypersonic+ reactions" based on the call lightning calc

Powers

Orcus currently has multiple powers that he shouldn't have.

• Precognition: Orcus was never a greater deity. In fact its very likely he wasn't even a full blown god honestly. Know why? He was killed by Kiaransaleewho was a Demigod. Precognition is only possessed by Greater Gods and no one else without the use of magic spells
• I don't believe he has evidence of Mid-Godly. At least, not to the same degree as full deities. His should become something similar to Demogorgon's Regenerationn rating of "Mid, Mid-Godly overtime". Since its not combat applicable.
• Probability Manipulation: He does have this, but only after he ascended and he no longer possesses godhood
• Death Manipulation and Existence Erasure: As before he would have this (although in a super limited amount), but only as a god. Which he no longer is.

So my suggestions

• Change his AP reasonings and nerf his combat Regenerationn
• Speed upgrade for his lower keys
• Give Orcus a new key for his Lesser God and Out of the Abyss form
• Give Orcus a new key for his brief stint as a god. If not then he needs a lot of his power removed.
• No matter what he needs to have his Precognition removed

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also Demogoron needs similar treatment. With adding a Out of the Abyss key and changing his avatar form.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Spatial Manip and Time Manip as abilities are perfectly fine, should probably just have anything with "something something multiple layers of the abyss Graz'zt" since he's our scaling point for the 2-C side of Demon Lords.

And yeah, direct scaling to Demogorgon should go. While Demogorgon doesn't instantly flay alive a creature like Orcus, he does use him as a mop when clearing out dozens of other demon lords. So just "Can harm" is fine, or direct scaling to Graz'zt (I should get to work on that page).

Speed I agree with, probably just a **** up in an edit somewhere that he hasn't already gotten this.

I actually disagree for some of the Power Section. Legendary Resistances do indeed offer him Probability Manip to some extent, so he should maintain them at base. As for Mid-Godly... Tenebrous? I dunno what all he would qualify as but when you have things such as that it seems fair to just go along with the whole "these guys are exactly like gods in power but slightly less". Death Manip he absolutely has since the Wand of Orcus is a thing and Blasphemy is an at-will for Balors much less powerful than Orcus. Dunno about EE. Precog can be removed.

While we're on the subject, other Demon Lords will have to have the same alterations made if needed...

Malcanthet needs Infinite speed added, she doesn't seem to have a key for an assumed Aspect/Avatar yet either.

...and that's literally it. Now! I wanna say that I plan a CRT for all demons in the near future for standard abilities held by all of them.

 

[Dragonstitch]

I agree with this. Though in 4e he has shown Resistance Negation.

Also how do treat alternate ending from modules? Since in one of the endings of E3: Prince of undeath, if the player's fail to stop orgus he steals the Raven Queen's powers with the shard of evil.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Spatial Manip and Time Manip as abilities are perfectly fine

I have no issue with those powers. Just that statement that he can control multiple Abyss layers. He's hasn't shown that he can and there's lore wise backing it.

So just "Can harm" is fine, or direct scaling to Graz'zt (I should get to work on that page).

Both of those are what we should do. Rather than just direct Demogorgon scaling

As for Mid-Godly... Tenebrous?

Sure, but I was mainly talking about his normal Abyss Lord key. Tenebrous is his ghostly post-god form.

Malcanthet needs Infinite speed added, she doesn't seem to have a key for an assumed Aspect/Avatar yet either.

Yeah. They all need a Aspect and a out of the Abyss key. Since they're much weaker when they have no layer to draw power from.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> Also how do treat alternate ending from modules?

Possible keys/rating. Like with Orcus' last key.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright, then, Sertrous as an example. He left the Abyss but he was still reduced to nothing and then reformed as a consciousness much much later, and the only reason he didn't come back was due to just not having practically any followers.

And yeah, Aspects should default to At least Low 6-B, possibly 6-B for the weaker demon lords and stronger ones (i.e., all the bigwigs) should keep the High 6-A.

 

[Crabwhale]

I completely disagree with everything here

Seems fine to me.

 

[Xulrev]

I actually 100% agree with everything Bambu said, and was coming into this thread prepared to say it(minus the Malcanthet stuff).....

So what I'm saying is Bambu sucks for stealing my thunder the OP looks entirely accurate, I can't say anything looks wrong at all.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And yeah, Aspects should default to At least Low 6-B, possibly 6-B for the weaker demon lords and stronger ones (i.e., all the bigwigs) should keep the High 6-A.

Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt sure since they're out of Abyss CRs are all in the 30s. But the others should be either 6-C or Low 6-B.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So everyone is fine with the proposed changes with Orcus and Demogorgon correct?

 

[Qawsedf234]

The proposed ratings being

Orcus

• Aspect: Varies. High 8-C to 6-C

• Out of the Abyss: High 6-A

• In the Abyss: 2-C

• Lesser God (will also get the mentioned god powers): 2-C

• Tenebrous: 2-C, 2-A with the last word

• Last Word + Wand: 2-A

Demogorgo

• Aspect: Varies. High 8-C to 6-C

• Out of the Abyss: High 6-A

• In the Abyss: 2-C

• Lesser God: At least 2-C

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Approve of the ratings proposed for the reasons we spoke about over Discord.