[One More Mod Vote needed] Addition To A Lack Of Acrobatics In Kamen Rider Black Sun And Kamen Rider Shadow Moon

[Shadowslash125]

I saw that Black Sun and Shadow Moon lack the acrobatics ability even when they have shown the capabilities to do so. Just a quick CRT with some scans to back it up. Flips, rolls and jumping higher should qualify as acrobatics, so firstly, their jump height.
Black Sun can jump up 36ms while Shadow Moon can jump up 33ms respectively. Black Sun in particular has used this to pull off a rider kick against Shadow Moon.

Black Sun himself scales to Aoi in her kaijin form, who did this and this. Kaijin Form Shadow Moon can also scale to her since he did something very similar.

The two showcased their acrobatic skills when they fought each other for the first time in the series too.

Other scans pertaining to acrobatics:



There may be more but for the moment, these are the ones I've found to show acrobatics in their fights. But at the same time, I'm no expert in acrobatics stuff, so I might need other eyes to tell me whether they are or not. So uhh yea, that's that. Pretty short but possibly impactful CRT.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Agree with adding acrobatics to those two Riders cause I probably forgot to add them back then.

Although I would argue that several examples here should be removed or swapped out because they are not truly acrobatic feats, and while I did say that flips and rolls can be classified as acrobatics, they usually have to be performed in the air or in an impossible movement that normal people can't.

- Black Sun Vs Bilgenia: It just shows Black Sun being faster than Bilgenia in combat.

- Black Sun Vs Darom: They just wrestling around, no acrobat feats is shown.

- Black Sun Vs Spider: Almost the same as above, Black Sun dodging and avoiding Spider's attacks isn't enough to qualify as acrobatics.

Additionally, you could add this scene of Mantis Kaijin leaping around buildings.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Can it be swapped out now for this CRT or do I have to keep it as is?

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

simple yet effective, definitely agree with this

 

[Jamesthetaker]

You can now swamp it out so that people can evaluate it with more accurate evidence.

 

[Shadowslash125]

It has been swapped and the redundant ones have been removed.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah this is straightforward enough. I agree.

 

[Shadowslash125]

How many more agrees till I can add in the ability?

Edit: Also thanks for the quick agree.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Maybe like one more mod.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Aight.
While this CRT is urgent for an ongoing matchup with Black Sun and Shadow Moon, I can understand and can wait for one more mod.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bumpity Bump!

 

[IxaSaga2]

I agree with this

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bump

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bump

 

[Tllmbrg]

Black Sun can jump up 36ms while Shadow Moon can jump up 33ms respectively. Black Sun in particular has used this to pull off a rider kick against Shadow Moon.

This aspect of the CRT actually doesn't add anything, jumping high is not acrobatics (I should know, I removed it from there)

Black Sun himself scales to Aoi in her kaijin form, who did this and this. Kaijin Form Shadow Moon can also scale to her since he did something very similar.

First and last are fineish, albeit not that impressive. Second one isn't really acrobatics, I think it's just athleticism really.
Also off what basis would their acrobatics scale?

The two showcased their acrobatic skills when they fought each other for the first time in the series too.

As other noted this is just wrestling/hand to hand fighting that doesn't seem that acrobatic

Also not acrobatics, it's just a flying kick followed by him whaling on a creature, idk what here is the acrobatics

So imo unless the scaling is explained better there isn't good evidence for acrobatics

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Also off what basis would their acrobatics scale?

Mantis Kaijin's acrobat feats are done through her agile movements and speed.

Spoiler: Mantis Kaijin

葵自身が南光太郎から格闘術を学んでいたこともあって戦闘能力は非常に高く、初めて変身した際は理性を失ってブラックサンを襲撃。俊敏な動きとカマを振るっての攻撃でブラックサンを苦戦させた。また、小松俊介とともに「ゴルゴム党」本部から脱出するときも、施設内を掃討していたSATの隊員をカマによる攻撃で退けている。

当初は他の怪人と同じように、全身に力を込めて解放するイメージを持つことで変身していた。しかし、のちに光太郎を追ってゴルゴム党本部へ侵入した際、仮面ライダーBLACK SUNと同じように両の拳を右側に振り、力を込めて握りしめることで腹部にドライバーを露出。さらに左腕を反時計回りに旋回させ、右腕でドライバーのカマ状のパーツを中央部にセットすると同時に両腕を右斜め上に振り上げて怪人態に変身した。

このゴルゴム党本部での戦いでは、超高速で壁を走って銃弾をかわし、ゴルゴム党の上級怪人たちを次々に撃破。多勢に無勢で劣勢となるも、加勢に現れたクジラ怪人とノミ怪人に助けられて創世王の部屋へと進み、そこで新創世王と化していた南光太郎に対面することとなった。

Aoi's fighting ability is extremely high, as she learned martial arts from Kotaro Minami herself, and when she transformed for the first time, she lost her senses and attacked Black Sun. Her agile movements and attacks using her scythe gave Black Sun a hard time. Also, when she escaped from the Golgom Party headquarters with Shunsuke Komatsu, she used her scythe to fend off the SAT members who were sweeping the facility.

At first, like other monsters, he transformed by concentrating his whole body and imagining releasing it. However, later, when he followed Kotaro and infiltrated the Golgom Party headquarters, he swung both fists to the right and clenched them with force, just like Kamen Rider BLACK SUN, to expose the driver on his abdomen. He then rotated his left arm counterclockwise and placed the sickle-shaped part of the driver in the center with his right arm, while swinging both arms diagonally upwards to the right to transform into his monster form.

In this battle at the Golgom Party headquarters, he runs along the walls at super-speed, dodging bullets and defeating the high-ranking Golgom Party monsters one after another. Although he is outnumbered and at a disadvantage, he is saved by the whale monster and the flea monster who appear to help him and proceeds to the Genesis King's room, where he comes face to face with Kotaro Minami, who has transformed into the new Genesis King.
-Kamen Rider Zukan

Black Sun's Kaijin form is said to have some of the best fighting abilities among all Kaijins, along with overwhelming speed.

Spoiler: Black Sun's Kaijin Form

外皮は恐ろしく硬く、和泉葵を襲ったクモ怪人との戦いでは、背中に突き立てられた棘のような腕を逆に砕いている。スピードも圧倒的で、俊敏な動きでクモ怪人の攻撃を回避。両腕に巻き付いたクモ怪人の糸を力ずくで引きちぎるなど並外れたパワーもあわせ持っている。

戦闘ではおもにキック、パンチ、投げ、タックルといった格闘術を駆使。クジラ怪人やシャドームーンとの戦いでは、どちらも最後は馬乗りになってのマウントパンチで相手の戦意を喪失させている。

怪人の中でも屈指の戦闘力を持つが、1972年に起きた創世王との戦いでは、創世王が放つ念動力にまったく歯が立たず、左脚を破壊され、なすすべもなく敗北している。

Its outer skin is incredibly hard, and in the battle with the spider monster that attacked Izumi Aoi, it managed to shatter the thorn-like arm that was thrust into its back. Its speed is also overwhelming, and it avoids the spider monster's attacks with agile movements. It also possesses extraordinary strength, and is able to forcefully tear off the spider monster's threads that were wrapped around both of its arms.

In battle, he mainly uses kicks, punches, throws, and tackles. In his battles with the Whale Monster and Shadow Moon, he ends both of them by mounting them and punching them, causing them to lose the will to fight.

He has some of the best fighting abilities among the monsters, but in his battle with the Genesis King in 1972, he was no match for the Genesis King's telekinetic powers, his left leg was destroyed, and he was defeated without being able to do anything.
-Kamen Rider Zukan

Black Sun's Rider form is more powerful and faster than his Kaijin form.

Spoiler: Black Sun's Rider Form

当初は怪人の姿に変身していたが、自分を慕う少女、和泉葵がビルゲニアによって怪人にされたことを知り、怒りが頂点に達したことから覚醒。仮面ライダーBLACK SUNの姿に変身できるようになった。怪人態を上回るスピードとパワーを誇っており、ゴルゴムの幹部であるビルゲニアを圧倒するなど潜在能力は計り知れない。左胸の途切れた「∞」のマークは、仮面ライダーSHADOWMOONに倒された光太郎を復活させる際、葵が思いを込めて自ら噛んだ指で描き込んだもの。

At first, he transformed into a monster, but when he found out that Izumi Aoi, a girl who admired him, had been turned into a monster by Bilgenia, his anger reached its peak and he awakened. He was able to transform into Kamen Rider BLACK SUN. He boasts speed and power that surpasses that of his monster form, and his potential is immeasurable, as seen in overwhelming Bilgenia, a senior member of Golgom. The broken "∞" mark on his left chest was drawn by Aoi with her own bitten finger, with great emotion, when reviving Kotaro, who had been defeated by Kamen Rider SHADOW MOON.
-Kamen Rider Zukan

Black Sun and Shadowmoon are biologically similar, i.e., they are both Locust Kaijin but with different color (black and silver)

TL;DR, Black Sun/Shadowmoon is biologically superior to most Kaijins which is why they scale to Mantis Kaijin's acrobat feats. If you believe their acrobats are not impressive enough for a full-fledged acrobatic, we could put it as Limited.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Uhh scaling the scans via the acrobatics wiki and thanks to Jamesthetaker's post, I can say that they scale to Aoi via hypermobility and surface running and possibly self-momentum.

 

[DarkGrath]

Black Sun himself scales to Aoi in her kaijin form, who did this

Most of what has been mentioned in the OP isn't really acrobatics, but I'm fairly certain this in particular qualifies as acrobatics due to the details on surface running on the acrobatics page. But the quotes used to say these other characters should also be capable of the same feats are a bit lacklustre.

Its outer skin is incredibly hard, and in the battle with the spider monster that attacked Izumi Aoi, it managed to shatter the thorn-like arm that was thrust into its back. Its speed is also overwhelming, and it avoids the spider monster's attacks with agile movements. It also possesses extraordinary strength, and is able to forcefully tear off the spider monster's threads that were wrapped around both of its arms.

In battle, he mainly uses kicks, punches, throws, and tackles. In his battles with the Whale Monster and Shadow Moon, he ends both of them by mounting them and punching them, causing them to lose the will to fight.

He has some of the best fighting abilities among the monsters, but in his battle with the Genesis King in 1972, he was no match for the Genesis King's telekinetic powers, his left leg was destroyed, and he was defeated without being able to do anything.

This says Black Sun's Kaijin form is very fast and agile, and that he has very well above average fighting abilities among this designated group - which isn't really enough. I get the idea is "he is agile, Aoi did the acrobatics feat through being agile, therefore he should be capable of it too" is the argument here, but nothing says he's as agile as Aoi is.

At first, he transformed into a monster, but when he found out that Izumi Aoi, a girl who admired him, had been turned into a monster by Bilgenia, his anger reached its peak and he awakened. He was able to transform into Kamen Rider BLACK SUN. He boasts speed and power that surpasses that of his monster form, and his potential is immeasurable, as seen in overwhelming Bilgenia, a senior member of Golgom. The broken "∞" mark on his left chest was drawn by Aoi with her own bitten finger, with great emotion, when reviving Kotaro, who had been defeated by Kamen Rider SHADOW MOON.

This just says he's stronger and faster in his Rider form. Again, no direct comparison in his agility to Aoi is made.

I wouldn't be surprised at all, seeing the clips, if there were substantial feats of Black Sun and Shadow Moon doing things that qualify as acrobatics in the series. It's just that this isn't really good enough as a justification by itself. I'd suggest gathering more clips and cross-referencing them with the acrobatics page to substantiate this addition.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yah what Grath said basically

 

[Shadowslash125]

After rewatching all the episodes and cross-referencing them with the wiki, I noticed that there weren't any other feats that checked the box for acrobatics. While Kamen Rider usually features many acrobats, this series focuses on realistic stuff so they don't really expand on that aspect. Since the only ones I could scrape have been noted as not enough as well, it's unfortunate that this CRT is not going to be successful, which I understand and am completely fine with.

As for scaling with Aoi, who has shown to be an acrobat, I believe that this needs some explanation.
Kaijins are made by inserting stones derived from the essence of the Creation King into humans. These kaijins are even divided by the fact that there are minor and major Kaijins. Aoi here is a major kaijin, being able to go toe-to-toe with with Bilgenia, who also went toe-to-toe with both riders in their Kaijin forms. The reason we're saying that those two should scale to Aoi is that these two have kingstones implanted into them so that they can replace the now-dying Creation King. They're the only people who can become the creation king, who rejects any other kaijin who tries to take its place.
With this in mind, they're immensely stronger and more biologically superior in every way, outclassing every single kaijin in the series, and that's in their kaijin forms. Even the kaijins themselves can sense how powerful they are. Coupled with the fact that they evolved further by finally transforming into riders, the gap between the kaijins and these two are very wide.

Hence we were saying about these two scaling to Aoi (with Shadow Moon in white locust kaijin form showcasing it to an extent). I know this is probably not enough to get an agree to the CRT anymore, but I feel that I have to explain it regardless of whether it helps or not, since it's connected like that.

All in all, I'm fine with the decisions you two make and I'll act (or not act) according to your decisions.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I'm in the same boat as @Shadowslash125

The feats with Aoi and Shadowmoon are all I could find, given that this series is portrayed as a pseudo-realistic political series with little of Kamen Rider's usual action-packed screens.

The reason for scaling is pretty much explained by Slash above: Kaijin are created through a mineral created by the Creation King. Black Sun and Shadowmoon are created using the Kingstone, which is the same thing that will turn them into Creation King, hence, they are biologically superior to most Kaijins. The reason is a bit of a stretch, but it is what it is.

If you guys don't think this is enough to warrant acrobatics, I will concede.

 

[Tllmbrg]

If you guys don't think this is enough to warrant acrobatics, I will concede.

I would not no