On the matter of below absolute zero temperatures

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Recently, I have read some information that suggests that temperatures below absolute zero (0 Kelvin, the theoretical temperature point at which all atomic activity tends to cease) may have bizzare properties that warrant discussion. Here is a summary of some of the information in question:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature

Now, I'm no theoretical physicist (depending on who you ask), but I think this could merit some revisions to the official Absolute Zero page, as well as the Absolute Zero Feats in Fictio page. There are also certain characters who contend with below absolute zero temperatures, such as numerous characters from the Saint Seiya and Devil May Cry series.

I thought it might be wise to ask for a professional opinion on the matter first, but after being curtly dismissed I decided it might be wise for the whole community to make their own decisions on the matter.

 

[DontTalk]

Below absolute zero isn't something that exists in the definition of temperature that we (and with that I mean mostly me) commonly use.


Things can be sub-zero in terms of a definition of temperature that deals with the order of atoms, but not in the definition of temperature that is the average energy of all particles.

So in other words this below absolute zero thing has more energy than a usual absolute zero state and if you bring a system with below absolute zero temperature in contact with a system that after that definition has positive temperature the energy will flow from negative temperature to positive temperature (which I think is what they mean with negative temperature being hotter than positive in your article).


So all in all it simply is a different definition than from what we normally need to consider, which practically gives different results for which temperature something has.

For example something that has negative temperature after that definition has positive temperature after the definition of average kinetic energy of the particles.


So as long as we keep in mind which definition of temperature we are talking about there aren't really contradictions, I think.


For the purpose of our Absolute zero page it is probably irrelevant. I doubt any "below absolute zero" attacks in fiction are actually supposed to use that definition and if they they would actually be demonstrated as kinda warm instead.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@DontTalk

I see, thank you very much for your input! However, what has puzzled me is that there are characters who deal with such things that are clearly intended to be cold. To provide an example, Dante and Nero from the Devil May Cry series fight against Frosts, demons that can flash freeze areas and use molecular displacement methods to move from place to place quickly.

Furthermore, that article mentioned that "negative temperature is a strictly quantum phenomenon" in most systems. Do you that the relevant characters could warrant the addition of "resistance to subatomic and quantum manipulation" to their profiles? For the sake of context, consider that highly advanced methods of energy and spatial manipulation as well as many other unorthodox methods of hax are commonplace in the Saint Seiya and Devil May Cry verses.

 

[DontTalk]

I don't think resisting negative temperature after that definition warrants resistance to such things.

Attacking something with negative temperature, after that definition, would do more or less the same as when you attack someone with fire (aka. it heats things up). That alone would probably not match the depcitions of things.


Though whether you can actually put particles in such a state without at least dissolving the molecules is something I don't know.


That said I wouldn't assume it to be that definition for any verse, no matter how scientific it tries to appear, unless it is specifically explained to work that way.

Most of the time I would think authors mostly try to be impressive by breaking the scientific possibilities that way (which for a scientific verse is just as likely as for an unscientific)

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

That makes sense. Thank you for your time and help, DontTalk! I'm glad we could discuss this civilly. Would it be alright if I kept this thread open in case anyone else had anything else to add?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Saint Seiya characters can indeed release energy at temperatures below absolute Zero. Thanatos literally states "You will need a cold hundreds of times colder than Absolute Zero to affect me."

And the Absolute Zero attacks are described as being literally - 273.15 celsius.

 

[Blanked]

^isn't that just flowery language? I have it hard to believe unless it's clearly written the value or maybe a feat that proves it. Because that kind of things might as well be simply bragging around.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@William

Next to nothing in Saint Seiya is flowery language. This is the series where characters describe all of their powers in detail. The Absolute Zero is explained in length in series to be the temperature of - 273.15 celsius, where even the atoms stop moving, and thus nothing can withstand it. Of course, a High-Enough Cosmos and strength allows characters to withstand or even shrug it off.

Some examples of dialogue in the original Saint Seiya manga:

"We Gold Saints move at 300,000,000 meters per second. In other words, we reach the Speed of Light. If I felt like it, I could go around the world 7.5 times in but a second." - Leo Aiolia explaining the Gold Saints' speed

"Much like water freezes at 0┬║ Celsius and alcohol freezes at - 15.5┬║ Celsius, the Cloths also freeze at certain temperatures. The Bronze Cloth freezes at - 150┬║ Celsius, and the Silver Cloth freezes at - 200┬║ Celsius... However, the Gold Cloth cannot be frozen unless through a temperature lower than - 273┬║ Celsius. In other words, to defeat me you need to reach the Absolute Zero." - Aquarius Camus explaining the Aurora Execution

"My Lightning releases a shock of over 1,000,000 volts." - Shaina, Silver Saint explaining her attacks.

"While I can only release 75 punches per second, she releases 90. The only way for you to beat her is for you to reach the Speed of Sound, firing 100 punches in but a second." - Marin, talking to Seiya in the very early chapters

"My chains shall always reach and attack my opponent, even if he is found 2,000 Light-Years away." Andromeda Shun about his attack.

"Shiryu, you have a weakspot you are not aware of. While performing your Rising Rozan Dragon Fist, you unconsciously lower your guard for but 0,001 seconds. During that brief time period, you expose your heart." - Dohko, to Shiryu.

"Behold my ultimate attack, the Galaxian Explosion, which can shatter the very galaxy itself / all the stars of the galaxy." - Literally any Gemini in the series upon using GE.

Saint Seiya is built upon exposition and characters narrating everything. So if Thanatos shrugs off an attack that has been proven to be an Absolute Zero technique, and then claims Hyoga would need an air hundreds of times colder to affect him, then it is true.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

IIRC Tokisada also was killed by Hyoga's Absolute Zero shenanigans.

 

[DontTalk]

@Matthew: (In case your response was in regards to one of my answers) Well, I am not saying that the author doesn't mean what he says.


I am just saying that he probably didn't mean it in the definition that the linked pages about negative temperature talk about, which only works in special quantum systems (you couldn't easily put normal stuff into that state, without first disintegrating it) and the attack with it would work fundamentally different than what a absolute zero attack does (it would be better to compare it to a heat ray in that respect).


So I don't think the author meant it like that, but probably meant it in the more commonly known definition of absolute zero, where absolute zero means the particles have (almost) no kinetic energy.

In other words he probably meant it as an impressive physics breaking phenomenon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Colder than Absolute Zero means exactly what it means in fiction. It may be impossible in real life physics aside from special circumstances, but faster than life movement performed by humanoids is also impossible.

 

[DontTalk]

Colder than Absolute Zero means exactly what it means in fiction.

That is a tautology. I don't understand what you mean to say?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It means it's colder than Absolute Zero. Physically impossible through logical real life science? Yes. Physically impossible under make believe fiction? Somehow, no.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, I am not denying that it is possible in fiction.

As said it is perfectly possible that he can break science that way, plently of characters do.


The question that is debated here is what we can infere from something in fiction being ÔêÆ27315 ┬░C. Something for which we have to think about how things with that temperature behave.


If we for example say that particles at positive temperatures vibrate and as they get colder they vibrate less and less. Now when they reach absolute zero they don't vibrate at all (possibly I idealize here).

So what do the particles to at ÔêÆ27315 ┬░C? Still don't move? Or maybe they move less than standing still? Or do they move more, but in an ordered fashion?


All possibilities. All that my point was is that we can not really infer what particles do at ÔêÆ27315 ┬░C, unless the fiction directly tells us.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In Saint Seiya what happens is that below Absolute Zero temperature can freeze types of particles that survive in Absolute Zero, due to characteristics like Orichalcum metal and divine cosmos.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, in that case you know that it can bypass/overpower freezing resistance up to and including those that even protect against absolute zero.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

If we start changing profiles for characters with resistance to below absolute zero temperatures, we must also add such things to the pages of Dante and Nero. The verse has several advanced types of hax, as my blogs prove, even if they don't introduce it through loads of exposition.

@Matt

Don't forget the fact that some Saint Seiya characters may have quantum manipulation, which is pertinent to that article.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Higher level characters can manipulate quantic particles like quarks, gluons, photons, etc.

Also, in Saint Seiya: Omega, the cold beneath Absolute Zero was sufficient to freeze Tokisada, who isolates his atoms from space-time, meaning he can't be hurt.