Octopath Traveler revisions

[Knowzn]

Knowzn/sandbox 2

vsbattles.fandom.com

Profile rewrites. I've tried to keep Champions of the Continent and Octopath Traveler 2 stuff out of them as much as possible because,

1- That's way too much stuff for me to keep track of at the same time.

2- That's way too much stuff for anyone to evaluate at the same time.

So, yes, profiles are still very outdated, but hey, it's a step.

Continuing, P&A changes aside, I like listing statistical changes (or lack thereof) in CRTs, so,

Haven't touched AP, Durability, LS, Speed, etc. beyond making them presentable for the time being.

Stamina: Changed it to Superhuman; see the profiles (or rather a profile) for justification.

Range: Quite self-explanatory changes, really.

Spoiler: Intelligence

Left this on "TBD" because I don't think I have any strong views on this. I'll just lay whatever loose thoughts I have here and hope it goes somewhere.

I think Cyrus, albeit barely, would be fine to list as an Extraordinary Genius.

Now the rest, admittedly, none of them go beyond what is classified as Genius by their feats (except Cyrus), but when you add the second part of their intelligence section, their journey to the mix, I think, they'd be best represented with "At least Genius in and out of combat" or something to that effect.

And these would be my proposals, I guess, if you can even call them that.

Spoiler: Weaknesses

First of all, removed all "Doesn't have infinite stamina/ammo/materials" or all their variants. For the rest, I'll just skip the rewrites,

Ophilia
"As a spiritual servant of the gods, Ophilia is a pacifist by nature. She would only resort to combat as a last resort and has been shown to let her guard down against his sister for instance."

This is not necessarily wrong; it's just very headcanon-y. Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither is stated nor shown in-game, both these sentences are just speculations about her character.

Tressa
"She is initially naive with the outside world, but she learns over time."

This becomes irrelevant by the end of her storyline.

Olberic
"Has felt depressed and often struggled to seek a reason for his life."

"Felt depressed once" isn't a weakness. Latter half of the sentence is not entirely wrong but becomes irrelevant by the end of his storyline.

Primrose
"Due to her dark past, Primrose has been shown to be shy or uneasy in large crowds. She can also grow quite sensitive when seeing innocent people being injured"

To be honest, I've no idea what either of these is referencing to. And honestly, they both (especially former) sound kinda out of character for her so bit confused.

Therion
"Can be quite cocky and reckless at times; has a tendency to underestimate his foes such as Heathcote."

I think listing down that he is "noticeably prideful" would be fine, but anything else is honestly a stretch. For instance, in the Heathcote example, I don't think most people would expect some random 80-year-old-looking butler to keep up with them in combat and best them in their profession.

H'aanit
"H'aanit has shown to be rather naive at times."

Don't remember any evident cases of this. Removed it.

Alright, with that outta way, can I please ask for something to be done with the overabundance of profiles? Saying there is a profile for anyone that has more than 2 lines of dialogue is barely an overexaggeration here (I mean, literally, some don't even have that), and all of these profiles are extremely barebones.

I think that all profiles except those of Galdera, Lyblac, and Aelfric should be deleted. Those three are, like, the only ones that matter. The rest can always be remade by people interested in working on them. Though, then again, I don't think random animals, trees, NPCs, or whatever should be profiles.

And that's all for now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm unsure about Extraordinary Genius, but if everyone has evidence to be Genius, which Cyrus and Alfyn are especially qualifications for those, I can support those. As for weaknesses, I basically felt the need to list some details and/or most if not all are heavily reliant on early game yes; including Primrose and Ophelia's. In the first chapter, it is noticeable that she said nothing when all those other dancers were expressing jealousy. As for Ophelia, she is brave enough to fight monsters sure, but we don't see her fight human characters regularly until chapter 4 against Matthias. She was ambushed by Lianna who stole the flame to give to Matthias; and oblivious about Archbishop Josef's fate. And while I can understand people not seeing it as a weakness, she was teaching kids why violence was wrong in the second chapter iirc. Which gives the impression about her "Pacifist characteristic."

 

[Knowzn]

snip

Thank you for the response.

Intelligence: Yeah, I think we’re pretty much on the same wavelength here in the sense that neither of us have any strong views on this. To quickly go over things,

Genius ratings are less about their own feats (which, don't get me wrong, would still land a good chunk of 'em in similar ratings) but more about the fact they have been imparted with knowledge that encompasses 11 other jobs on top of everything.

The Extraordinary Genius rating pretty much boils down to whether or not Cyrus—who can instantly ascertain the whole life narrative and weaknesses of anything he meets, learning their skills like how to train a tiger to be docile and not dangerous in the least, to the point where he can teach this to someone else in moments, all by merely scrutinizing them—is considered superhuman enough or not.

Weaknesses: I think we’re largely on the same page here too? I'll just briefly sum up my opinions about Ophilia then. Overall, I don’t really disagree with your interpretation of her character; I disagree with taking it a step further and listing it as a weakness, which, I think, has different implications altogether.

I take it you agree with everything else?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Thank you for the response.

Intelligence: Yeah, I think we’re pretty much on the same wavelength here in the sense that neither of us have any strong views on this. To quickly go over things,

Genius ratings are less about their own feats (which, don't get me wrong, would still land a good chunk of 'em in similar ratings) but more about the fact they have been imparted with knowledge that encompasses 11 other jobs on top of everything.

The Extraordinary Genius rating pretty much boils down to whether or not Cyrus—who can instantly ascertain the whole life narrative and weaknesses of anything he meets, learning their skills like how to train a tiger to be docile and not dangerous in the least, to the point where he can teach this to someone else in moments, all by merely scrutinizing them—is considered superhuman enough or not.

Weaknesses: I think we’re largely on the same page here too? I'll just briefly sum up my opinions about Ophilia then. Overall, I don’t really disagree with your interpretation of her character; I disagree with taking it a step further and listing it as a weakness, which, I think, has different implications altogether.

I take it you agree with everything else?

Seems legit, and yeah everything I haven't mentioned seems agreeable

 

[Armorchompy]

Stun isn't Paralysis, we don't really have a power for it so just listing as status effect is fine.
I'm not sure why the inventory is supposed to be dimensional storage? Why can't they just be carrying the stuff
I'm not sure I understand the Galdera NPI stuff? NPI makes sense as a whole but I don't really know what a Shield Point is, and why strengthening it with souls implies it is itself made of souls.
Enhanced Senses - ghosts are pretty commonly visible in media. Is there evidence these are invisible to most?
Immortality Negation doesn't fit imo, destroying ghosts, undead and constructs is just a matter of AP (and NPI in the first's case) unless they're explicitly said to not be killable through that.

Rest seems fine. I really like how you set up pics/quotes

 

[Spinoirr]

The flood feat should have a Calc

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The flood feat should have a Calc

There are actually better feats for Galdera to scale from via Champions of the Continent + Octopath Travler 2, but that's going to be saved for later.

 

[Armorchompy]

is it tier 2

these games always get to tier 2 somehow

 

[Knowzn]

Stun isn't Paralysis, we don't really have a power for it so just listing as status effect is fine.

Noted.

I'm not sure I understand the Galdera NPI stuff? NPI makes sense as a whole but I don't really know what a Shield Point is, and why strengthening it with souls implies it is itself made of souls.

Shield Points are game mechanics in the same way Boost Mode is.

Lyblac’s soul healing specifically restoring shield points and nothing more across multiple titles, which, when supplemented with Galdera consistently (and pretty much constantly) using souls to modify his own shield points, only draws one picture, me thinks.

Enhanced Senses

I don't think there is any mention of whether or not they're visible. Wouldn’t proving they are invisible be evidence for neutral vision instead, though? Enhanced Senses page differentiates them.

Immortality Negation

I'm confused here. Do you have issues with them "destroying" it (wording, I mean), or do you not think killing beings who are already dead qualifies as immortality negation of type 7 by itself? Or is this just about type 2?

Inventory

Honestly, I've seen a few others do it like that and just thought it was fine to list it as such, so long as items do exist in-universe. I'd be fine to drop it; it's not that big of a deal. Beyond that, I'm not sure how to respond to your point. At face value?

I don't think it's physically possible for them to carry tens of thousands of items with them, especially for someone like Primrose or Tatloch, who's just ballin' 24/7.

Rest seems fine. I really like how you set up pics/quotes

Thank you, and Thank you!

is it tier 2

these games always get to tier 2 somehow

Nothing definitive yet, but around there at minimum, yeah.

 

[Armorchompy]

Lyblac’s soul healing specifically restoring shield points and nothing more across multiple titles, which, when supplemented with Galdera consistently (and pretty much constantly) using souls to modify his own shield points, only draws one picture, me thinks.

Hmm, I suppose that's fair.

I don't think there is any mention of whether or not they're visible. Wouldn’t proving they are invisible be evidence for neutral vision instead, though? Enhanced Senses page differentiates them.

Those types listed on the ES page are extremely old (9 years old, in fact) and haven't been touched since the page was made, I wouldn't bother with them (basically everything listed in the "enhanced vision" subtypes would be invisible to a normal person). Apologies if that's confusing, I didn't know they were there. I probably should remove them at some point.

I'm confused here. Do you have issues with them "destroying" it (wording, I mean), or do you not think killing beings who are already dead qualifies as immortality negation of type 7 by itself? Or is this just about type 2?

The latter, if you shoot a zombie in the head (in a setting where that kills them of course) you're not negating its type 2/7 immortality, you're just going beyond the boundaries of what it can keep it alive through. Skeletons and especially ghosts are less well defined, but I wouldn't assume that sheer AP doesn't do it (unless their undeath is stepping into the boundaries of deathless immortality but that's a whole other thing).

Honestly, I've seen a few others do it like that and just thought it was fine to list it as such, so long as items do exist in-universe. I'd be fine to drop it; it's not that big of a deal. Beyond that, I'm not sure how to respond to your point. At face value?

I don't think it's physically possible for them to carry tens of thousands of items with them, especially for someone like Primrose or Tatloch, who's just ballin' 24/7.

I dunno, I think you just assume gameplay mechanics for that sort of stuff, I wouldn't do this stuff as dimensional storage unless there was dialogue clarifying it as an in-canon thing.

Nothing definitive yet, but around there at minimum, yeah.

that makes sense

 

[Knowzn]

Those types listed on the ES page are extremely old (9 years old, in fact) and haven't been touched since the page was made, I wouldn't bother with them (basically everything listed in the "enhanced vision" subtypes would be invisible to a normal person). Apologies if that's confusing, I didn't know they were there. I probably should remove them at some point.

I see. I'm fine with removing that then. Thank you for your clarification.

(unless their undeath is stepping into the boundaries of deathless immortality but that's a whole other thing).

Huh. Might have a thing or two to say about that in later threads. I'm fine with removing Immortality Negation from profiles then, but for future reference, what would you consider a negation of those types (2/7)?

I dunno, I think you just assume gameplay mechanics for that sort of stuff, I wouldn't do this stuff as dimensional storage unless there was dialogue clarifying it as an in-canon thing.

I think I may have a dialogue acknowledging their existence and their usage/effects as in-canon things, but I guess that wouldn’t be enough without explicit mention of something akin to dimensional storage?

 

[Armorchompy]

Huh. Might have a thing or two to say about that in later threads. I'm fine with removing Immortality Negation from profiles then, but for future reference, what would you consider a negation of those types (2/7)?

If it's being negated as in "you would normally survive a stab to the head, but i'm using special powers so a stab to the head kills you", that's immortality negation. But if it's just beating them to death nothing (Well, NPI for the ghosts)

I think I may have a dialogue acknowledging their existence and their usage/effects as in-canon things, but I guess that wouldn’t be enough without explicit mention of something akin to dimensional storage?

The existence of the items? Probably not IMO.

 

[Knowzn]

Figures.

So, uhh, is this enough of an input, or do I need to get one more?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure how else to interpret "99 of everything, elixers, ethers, potions, ect" without Dimensional Storage. That's just the norm we have for a lot of Adventure/RPG protagonists with big utilities unless we have a giant caravan pulled by horse behind them like FE Merlinus. It's not like the characters are physically carrying them all like this.

Dimensional Storage sounds less assumptive than the above and calculating lifting strength based on that.

 

[Armorchompy]

You just don't assume anything, literally no major game verse's profile do anything other than that. The items exist and the game doesn't have any inventory management mechanics so it lets you carry all of them. Not every gameplay mechanic needs to be indexed.

 

[Knowzn]

You just don't assume anything, literally no major game verse's profile do anything other than that.

I don’t think this is a valid assertion. Just from the top of my head, Mario, Sonic (by extension, NiGHTS), Minecraft, and SMT are all major game verses that index items or inventories in one way or another, be it Hammerspace, Dimensional Storage, or Summoning. And you could find a whole lot more if you were to search for it, probably.

Other than that, this is just staff having minor disagreements on indexing things, so I don’t think there is any point in involving myself as a blue name. I'll excuse myself.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don’t think this is a valid assertion. Just from the top of my head, Mario, Sonic (by extension, NiGHTS), Minecraft, and SMT are all major game verses that index items or inventories in one way or another, be it Hammerspace, Dimensional Storage, or Summoning. And you could find a whole lot more if you were to search for it, probably.

Mario and I think Sonic have proper backing for it, Minecraft probably shouldn't but at least inventory is like, the core of the game there rather than a side mechanic not given much thought, SMT... does SMT have it? Looked at a few profiles and I can't find it.

 

[Knowzn]

Mario and I think Sonic have proper backing for it

Apologies but I don’t get how “Hammerspace (Various power-ups and items)” or “Hammerspace (Can store Chaos Emeralds and Rings in such a space. Additionally, he has reached into his enemies personal hammerspace to take access their weapons.)” proves anything beyond they’re just carrying stuff with them, and what is presented here doesn’t, quite honestly.

I think a cutscene acknowledging their existence and usage/effects would be much closer to the “dialogue clarifying it as an in-canon thing" example you've given than what is above, for example.

Minecraft probably shouldn't but at least inventory is like, the core of the game there rather than a side mechanic not given much thought

I think that’s quite arbitrary, rationalizing some because they’re "core mechanics and given much thought" and others not so much. I do get that you think it probably shouldn't be there, but still.

Looked at a few profiles and I can't find it.

P5’s cast has it under summoning, at least.

 

[Armorchompy]

Apologies but I don’t get how “Hammerspace (Various power-ups and items)” or “Hammerspace (Can store Chaos Emeralds and Rings in such a space. Additionally, he has reached into his enemies personal hammerspace to take access their weapons.)” proves anything beyond they’re just carrying stuff with them, and what is presented here doesn’t, quite honestly.

You can visibly see him reach into nothing and pull stuff out and even interact with others', that's like, extremely specific.

I think a cutscene acknowledging their existence and usage/effects would be much closer to the “dialogue clarifying it as an in-canon thing" example you've given than what is above, for example.

Ok, to be clear, acknowledging what's existence and usage. Because if it's the inventory, sure. But I don't think just "yeah items exist" means anything in regard of them being stored supernaturally.

P5’s cast has it under summoning, at least.

Again, that's because "as shown on multiple occasions where large items and equipment are pulled out of nowhere and used despite being missing in both gameplay and cutscenes"

"we can clearly see this visually happening even outside of gameplay in a non-stylized artstyle" is what's making the power, not the existence of items in general.

 

[Knowzn]

Sorry for the (very) late reply. Had a flu, and I really couldn’t be bothered with VSBW stuff in the meantime. Feeling a bit better now.

Response

It's just visuals? Then,

• Pretty much the entirety of the Inventor skills (just to give a few examples).
• How everyone always has a boat that’s like three times their size in their pocket, or how Thurston literally carries a Pitbull around his pocket, or how Thurston again, carries an entire steam engine in his pocket across islands just to attack Partitio (this could be him literally carrying that though, looking at the sprites, idk).
• How this mountain of meat big enough to feed an entire village is canonically just a fragment of the total amount of meat Ochette carries around, which she just pulls from thin air when asked to, and how she continues to pull meats from thin air to eat across the entire game (this is just one example).
• And a bunch of other things like that.

This is like most you’re going to see in a pixel art game, tbh. If these are enough, cool. If not, then I don’t really think there is anything else that I can say that can convince you anyway.

 

[Knowzn]

Bump? I guess?

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah I don't wanna halt this for a minor thing, if you wanna do dimensional storage do it ideally with a possibly.

 

[Knowzn]

Yeah I don't wanna halt this for a minor thing, if you wanna do dimensional storage do it ideally with a possibly.

Eh, I’ll take it. Though, I’ll definitely be re-proposing adding DS solidly in later threads.

Thank you for your continued input here, Armor. Much appreciated. I’ve applied the changes. All that remains are profile deletions. On that note,

.

Medeus, can I ask you to handle the profile deletions, if you have the time?

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

As a Main Therion because **** purple chests, I agree with the proposals

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, I only recently noticed that proposal. Actually, I'd rather not be too blunt in nuking all of those profiles who aren't the 8 protagonists + Lyblac, and Aelfric. I would prefer to keep all the chapter bosses as they are fairly iconic and memorable. All the chapter 4 bosses especially are quite impactful on the respective stories and I'd like to keep them. And all members of the Obsidians are also memorable for Primrose's story. And how could we forget Chapter 3 Alfyn's Miguel? I can understand that some bosses such as Chapter 3 H'aanit having a boss just called Dragon or Mystery Man and Shady Figure not being much of an impression. There's also Mikk and Makk making a comeback in Octopath Traveler 2. I know they may not be the most important profiles, but they're still harmless. Furthermore, we got sillier profiles from other game verses, and random temple bosses from Legend of Zelda series. So Early/Mid game bosses should be fine especially for reference points of eventual early/mid game protagonist keys that should preferably be implemented in the future.

Unless you're mainly talking about the other. In that case, I can agree some blank or one off NPC profiles can go. I would propose keeping the following characters:

• Graham Crossford, as he is quite iconic among many other paths, eventually becomes the Redeye, and was someone who almost defeated Lyblac
• Erhardt, for pretty obvious reasons. As sub-boss in Chapter 3 for Olberic's story and helps him in the story of Chapter 4 as a memorable ally
• Pretty much the gods in general, they are very iconic in Octopath Traveler's lore. Even if we do not meet most of them, much like what the Golden Goddesses + Hylia are to Legend of Zelda. I didn't even finish making all of them and I know Aelfric is the most memorable, but they are all pretty iconic for other reasons. Especially, Winniheld, Steoorra, Dreisang, and Balogar. They are all super-bosses who fight the party to test if they are worthy of their class empowerments and as the chosen ones to face Galdera.

Ones I basically agree with maybe getting rid of are.

• Alaic, for obvious reasons
• Grieg the unbreakable, just a cannon fodder opponent who lost off screen by an unknown opponent.
• Bernhard the Beasthunter, another cannon fodder opponent who lost off screen by an unknown opponent.
• Wallace Wildsword, while better than the previous 2, he is still another offscreen jobber who loses presumably to Archibold the Crusher in the first round
• Conrad the Impaler, also has a stated track record, but still another offscreen loser in the end

Ones I'm unsure about are. But for the most part, lean towards with keeping ones we actually get to see fight as opposed to just being bested offscreen and becoming tag along at best.

• Leon Bastralle, he is an ally in Tressa's story and notes rivalry with Graham Crossford, and optional superboss who can also be a powerful summon for Ophelia or Primrose. But unsure how much impression in leaves
• Victorino, a miniboss fought before the tournament in chapter 2, but fairly easy and one off.
• Joshua Frostblade, the first opponent fought in the tournament
• Archibold the Crusher, is the second opponent in the tournament before facing the chapter boss Gustav
• Geoffrey Azelhart, he dies in the prologue of Primrose's story, but has iconic memorability of his might.
• Z'aanta, pretty much plays a similar role to Leon Bastralle, but for H'aanit's story.
• Linde, while an iconic as H'aanit's main animal friend, pretty much just becomes a weak summon throughout most of the game though.

I agree some profiles might have lowballed stats if we can fight better feats and/or scaling sources, but I still prefer to have profiles given the wikis goal is to grow/expand. And most of them still have decent placeholders that can hold off till we find better things to improve them. And it's an achievement for any wiki contributor to mention their page creation list. I haven't kept track of how many profiles I made, but even so. Also the last thing I want is that time when Tllmbrg kept doing everything to ruin our 30,000 page count celebration.

 

[Knowzn]

I still prefer to have profiles given the wikis goal is to grow/expand. And most of them still have decent placeholders that can hold off till we find better things to improve them. And it's an achievement for any wiki contributor to mention their page creation list. I haven't kept track of how many profiles I made, but even so. Also the last thing I want is that time when Tllmbrg kept doing everything to ruin our 30,000 page count celebration.

Y'know, regardless of what I may think on the matter, I can at least sympathize with your feelings on the matter; I wouldn’t mind taking a more conservative approach here, then. Things just got real, lmao.

Furthermore, we got sillier profiles from other game verses, and random temple bosses from Legend of Zelda series. So Early/Mid game bosses should be fine especially for reference points of eventual early/mid game protagonist keys that should preferably be implemented in the future.

I don’t think “we got sillier ones” is any reason to keep upping the silliness. And eventual early/mid game keys won’t really have anything to do with any of them directly. I do get the general point though, and eh, sure, I don't mind keeping chapter boss profiles, but I still don’t think we need profiles for random wildlife (i.e. Ghisarma, Blotted Viper, Hróðvitnir, Lord of the Forest, Ancient One, Venomtooth Tiger, Lizardman Chief, Dragon, Ogre Eagle), like, the only reason they are chapter bosses at all, is because party happened to conveniently run into them; a good chunk of these are reduced to random encounters on CotC, even. You tell me if those really need a profile.

I’d also say those who don't leave an impression can be deleted, but there’s not really any metric for that. I think Mystery Man and Shady Figure can still be deleted, though; they're barely characters, if you can call them that.

Graham Crossford

I mean, Graham is a pretty important character all around, no arguments there, but the thing about Graham is that there is barely anything to index, really. You could scale him somewhere, sure, but he has like, almost no P&A to go off of.

Gods

The thing about gods is that except for Aelfric, none of them do anything, really. This again falls into the no real P&A to go off of territory; you’d just have 7 profiles with very, very minimal changes to each other, which could happen, I guess. Balogar, Dreisang, Steorra, and Winnehild are all fine with me, but those don’t have a profile in the first place. I'll probably write one for Balogar though; he kinda goes hard design-wise.

Rest

I don't think we need to individually go through each of them. Those who are playable in CotC (Leon, Erhardt, Z’aanta, Joshua, and Grieg) can stay. The rest honestly have no reason to. Linde too; she's just a summon.

 

[Spinoirr]

Bump

 

[Knowzn]

So, uh, been a while, eh? About this, everything—except for trimming down profiles—has already been applied. And as for that,

The idea itself is accepted; we just disagree with Medeus when it comes to where we trim down the fat. So, I'll sort that out with Medeus somewhere along the way and leave the deletions whenever I get around to revising the verse page (to another CRT, in other words).

Overall, as far as this thread goes, I'd consider it concluded. I’ll request that this be closed.

Here is the very cool and based new thread btw.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Will close this via OP request.