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Obito Uchiha vs Anakin Skywalker - who is best/worst written character?
- Thread starter Seventy96
- Start date
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are we talking exclusively Anakin or Vader/Anakin in general
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TBH, I dunno about better written since they're basically the same character, but I would say Anakin's fall was more believable. Obito was pretty much pure incorruptible goodness as a kid while Anakin had shown a side of evil many times more throughout the clone wars.
On the flip side though, I would say Vader was more evil than Tobi. They acted the same way and had the same role, but you didn't see Tobi threatening Kisame, Nagato or Kabuto nor did you see him snapping Zetsu necks.
Lastly for this, Anakin's fall to evil was due to character flaws, Obito only joined the dark side after he had nothing left to live for as the only person other than Minato, who he truly wanted to protect and prove himself to (and get with), who believed in him, was killed right before his eyes by someone Obito gave everything he could give (his eye) to in order to keep her safe since he thought he was about to die. He was already a blacksheep in his own clan for his lack of talent as well. Anakin on the other hand had plenty of friends and prestige, and chose to be evil to protect one thing (his wife and coming family) out of many, but was ultimately redeemed by that one thing (Luke).
I think it's debatable.
On the flip side though, I would say Vader was more evil than Tobi. They acted the same way and had the same role, but you didn't see Tobi threatening Kisame, Nagato or Kabuto nor did you see him snapping Zetsu necks.
Lastly for this, Anakin's fall to evil was due to character flaws, Obito only joined the dark side after he had nothing left to live for as the only person other than Minato, who he truly wanted to protect and prove himself to (and get with), who believed in him, was killed right before his eyes by someone Obito gave everything he could give (his eye) to in order to keep her safe since he thought he was about to die. He was already a blacksheep in his own clan for his lack of talent as well. Anakin on the other hand had plenty of friends and prestige, and chose to be evil to protect one thing (his wife and coming family) out of many, but was ultimately redeemed by that one thing (Luke).
I think it's debatable.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I agree. Anakin is definitely a great character.
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Amakin easily if we're talking about Clone Wars
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Even ignoring the Clone Wars, Anakin's fall in just the films alone is far more believable than Obito. Obito had, at most, something like 2-3 years of indoctrination by Madara and saw Rin die and was willing to commit genocide, kill his teacher, murder infants, destroy Konoha, condone the massacre of the Uchiha, etc.
Anakin grew up in slavery for the first nine years of his life, was forced to leave his slave mother behind, was groomed by the most powerful and cunning Sith in a thousand years for 13 years, raised as an outsider to his peers, distrusted by the Jedi Order, raised and taught by an inexperienced, newly promoted, Knight, lost his hand, was encouraged to ignore his visions, witnessed his mother's death (after implied torture and suffering) then went on to fight a war for several years just to be disrespected and distrusted by the Jedi Council after so many years of work and suffering, visions of his wife and unborn child dying and finally snapped when the only person he could turn to was the grandfatherly figure that had groomed him, after witnessing a Jedi Master (the one that liked him the least) attempt to murder said figure.
It was only then that Anakin snapped, destroyed the Jedi Temple and fought Obi-Wan to the death, all while his mind was eroded and corrupted by an eldritch power (the Dark Side). This is all just from the films alone, and not including anything from the Clone Wars series.
Obito went from 0 to 11,000 in just a few years, with it weakly being handwaved later on as "Oh Zetsu manipulated everything and the Sharingan screws up your psychology with attachment" whereas Anakin steadily developed into falling from grace and had clear signs of it from the beginning.
Anakin grew up in slavery for the first nine years of his life, was forced to leave his slave mother behind, was groomed by the most powerful and cunning Sith in a thousand years for 13 years, raised as an outsider to his peers, distrusted by the Jedi Order, raised and taught by an inexperienced, newly promoted, Knight, lost his hand, was encouraged to ignore his visions, witnessed his mother's death (after implied torture and suffering) then went on to fight a war for several years just to be disrespected and distrusted by the Jedi Council after so many years of work and suffering, visions of his wife and unborn child dying and finally snapped when the only person he could turn to was the grandfatherly figure that had groomed him, after witnessing a Jedi Master (the one that liked him the least) attempt to murder said figure.
It was only then that Anakin snapped, destroyed the Jedi Temple and fought Obi-Wan to the death, all while his mind was eroded and corrupted by an eldritch power (the Dark Side). This is all just from the films alone, and not including anything from the Clone Wars series.
Obito went from 0 to 11,000 in just a few years, with it weakly being handwaved later on as "Oh Zetsu manipulated everything and the Sharingan screws up your psychology with attachment" whereas Anakin steadily developed into falling from grace and had clear signs of it from the beginning.
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I love Obito, but he was done a bad hand by the writing in the 4'th Shinobi World War arc. I think he needs his own Clone Wars equivalent story to make his fall into darkness much more understandable.
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> Even ignoring the Clone Wars, Anakin's fall in just the films alone is far more believable than Obito
Anakin goes from being the hero of the galaxy to murdering children and attempting to justify it to Obi Wan by saying "from my point of view the jedi are evil"
Anakin's turn in the PT is not believable because the context is absolutely contrived.
it's the expanded universe and series that make Anakin's fall actually believable
the films do a wonky job at it.
Anakin goes from being the hero of the galaxy to murdering children and attempting to justify it to Obi Wan by saying "from my point of view the jedi are evil"
Anakin's turn in the PT is not believable because the context is absolutely contrived.
it's the expanded universe and series that make Anakin's fall actually believable
the films do a wonky job at it.
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Anakin goes from being the hero of the galaxy to murdering children and attempting to justify it to Obi Wan by saying "from my point of view the jedi are evil"
Clone Wars makes it more gradual and we barely see 'hero of the galaxy' Anakin in the films. Film Anakin was in a clear downward spiral from Day 1.
Anakin's turn in the PT is not believable because the context is absolutely contrived.
The only thing contrived about it, would be Anakin's force visions being a thing in AoTC and then RoTS. Anakin was never depicted as particularly close or fond of the Temple in the films (to my memory anyways) so the only issue is how he willingly killed children.
However, he was being corrupted by the dark side, running on the fear of his wife and unborn child dying and very clearly lost a great deal of trust in them due to Windu attempting to kill an unarmed 'defenceless' Palpatine.
I agree more time could have been spent on Anakin going from "muh family must be saved" to "let's massacre some kiddos" but I wouldn't call it contrived, considering all of the elements at play for his fall.
And yeah, wonky writing made it harder for the actors to sell Anakin's fall, even if it makes (mostly) sense in the context of the writing and script.
And, even with the above criticism, I would still claim Anakin's fall is more believable than Obito's, even if I agree that murdering children is a serious whiplash.
Clone Wars makes it more gradual and we barely see 'hero of the galaxy' Anakin in the films. Film Anakin was in a clear downward spiral from Day 1.
Anakin's turn in the PT is not believable because the context is absolutely contrived.
The only thing contrived about it, would be Anakin's force visions being a thing in AoTC and then RoTS. Anakin was never depicted as particularly close or fond of the Temple in the films (to my memory anyways) so the only issue is how he willingly killed children.
However, he was being corrupted by the dark side, running on the fear of his wife and unborn child dying and very clearly lost a great deal of trust in them due to Windu attempting to kill an unarmed 'defenceless' Palpatine.
I agree more time could have been spent on Anakin going from "muh family must be saved" to "let's massacre some kiddos" but I wouldn't call it contrived, considering all of the elements at play for his fall.
And yeah, wonky writing made it harder for the actors to sell Anakin's fall, even if it makes (mostly) sense in the context of the writing and script.
And, even with the above criticism, I would still claim Anakin's fall is more believable than Obito's, even if I agree that murdering children is a serious whiplash.
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Yes. Anakin has an advantage of having a more explanative backstory. But I feel like a lot of people just downplay Obito's life and his story.
As similar as they are, a key difference between Anakin and Obito is that Anakin was a grown ass man when he turned. Obito was barely into his teens. So not only would he be highly emotional (bonus points for being an Uchiha), but he's super impressionable as well.
Obito, like Naruto never knew his parents. It's never explained what happened to them, but we can assume they died when he was an infant. He was pretty talentless, and not good at much. Despite him being an Uchiha, who are naturally protegees, and geniuses. Anakin was literally born from the force, with the highest latent potential of anyone in his universe. Lets not forget Anakin still had a parent, even if he was a slave and later separated from her.
Obito was also actively fighting in the Third Shinobi World War, and it's heavily implied that he was killing people he didn't know. If I'm not mistaken, Anakin wasn't a child solider. Nor was he a talentless nobody.
So far. Obito is a child soldier, who is talentless, in a clan of protegees. Said clan ostracizes him for this, and on top of that he's shunned from the rest of the village due to the animosity towards the Uchiha. It's also implied he dealt with bullying in his youth as well.
The fact that he dealt with all of this, and was still so much like Naruto is a serious feat.
Finally, he awakens his Sharingan, something he'd been working so hard to acquire. Only to sacrifice himself to save Kakashi. In his "last moments" Obito gives Kakashi one of his Sharingan, witch were so special to him. So he could not only protect himself, but Rin as well.
I should also point out that Rin wasn't just Obito's crush, but arguably his best friend. (Anyone who unironically believes he turned because of the "friendzone" needs to see a doctor. There's something very wrong with your brain)
Fast forward, he wakes up in a cave where the first thing he sees is an old man who looks like the Grim Reaper. ONly for Obito to discover that it's in fact this evil manipulative genius who he probably thought was dead for many decades.
He spends possibly close to a year recovering in this cave (going off how his hair grew) where he was trained by Madara. And very likely spoonfed his ideology.
Then comes the time when Obito escapes the cave. And he arrives at just the right time to see Kakashi, the man he'd given something precious of his to in order to protect himself, and his best friend shoving a raikiri though Rin's chest. And this was at juuussst the right instant without context.
And here when he killed the Mist Anbu, this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Not the "enitre reason for Obito's change" like many idiots claim.
Not much is shown after this. But we do know that Obito would go on to spend a full 17 or so years in near-total isolation. His only "companion" being Zetsu. I can only imagine solitude for that long ****** up his mind even further.
TLDR: Obito's fall is very much so believable. You just need to look a little deeper into his story, and look past all of the misplaced hatred people have for the character.
All this said, he's still a bad dude to the core. But nowhere near to the extent of Vader.
As similar as they are, a key difference between Anakin and Obito is that Anakin was a grown ass man when he turned. Obito was barely into his teens. So not only would he be highly emotional (bonus points for being an Uchiha), but he's super impressionable as well.
Obito, like Naruto never knew his parents. It's never explained what happened to them, but we can assume they died when he was an infant. He was pretty talentless, and not good at much. Despite him being an Uchiha, who are naturally protegees, and geniuses. Anakin was literally born from the force, with the highest latent potential of anyone in his universe. Lets not forget Anakin still had a parent, even if he was a slave and later separated from her.
Obito was also actively fighting in the Third Shinobi World War, and it's heavily implied that he was killing people he didn't know. If I'm not mistaken, Anakin wasn't a child solider. Nor was he a talentless nobody.
So far. Obito is a child soldier, who is talentless, in a clan of protegees. Said clan ostracizes him for this, and on top of that he's shunned from the rest of the village due to the animosity towards the Uchiha. It's also implied he dealt with bullying in his youth as well.
The fact that he dealt with all of this, and was still so much like Naruto is a serious feat.
Finally, he awakens his Sharingan, something he'd been working so hard to acquire. Only to sacrifice himself to save Kakashi. In his "last moments" Obito gives Kakashi one of his Sharingan, witch were so special to him. So he could not only protect himself, but Rin as well.
I should also point out that Rin wasn't just Obito's crush, but arguably his best friend. (Anyone who unironically believes he turned because of the "friendzone" needs to see a doctor. There's something very wrong with your brain)
Fast forward, he wakes up in a cave where the first thing he sees is an old man who looks like the Grim Reaper. ONly for Obito to discover that it's in fact this evil manipulative genius who he probably thought was dead for many decades.
He spends possibly close to a year recovering in this cave (going off how his hair grew) where he was trained by Madara. And very likely spoonfed his ideology.
Then comes the time when Obito escapes the cave. And he arrives at just the right time to see Kakashi, the man he'd given something precious of his to in order to protect himself, and his best friend shoving a raikiri though Rin's chest. And this was at juuussst the right instant without context.
And here when he killed the Mist Anbu, this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Not the "enitre reason for Obito's change" like many idiots claim.
Not much is shown after this. But we do know that Obito would go on to spend a full 17 or so years in near-total isolation. His only "companion" being Zetsu. I can only imagine solitude for that long ****** up his mind even further.
TLDR: Obito's fall is very much so believable. You just need to look a little deeper into his story, and look past all of the misplaced hatred people have for the character.
All this said, he's still a bad dude to the core. But nowhere near to the extent of Vader.
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a key difference between Anakin and Obito is that Anakin was a grown ass man when he turned.
Anakin's turning was a gradual process that took place over the course of nearly several years in the films, and implied to have been occurring prior to Attack of the Clones.
So not only would he be highly emotional (bonus points for being an Uchiha),
I mentioned this, and dismissed it. I don't recall it being mentioned until pretty late into the 4th War arc so it felt more contrived than anything in Anakin's fall to me.
Anakin was literally born from the force, with the highest latent potential of anyone in his universe.
And it caused him intense stress and was a point of manipulation for Palpatine. He was pressured as the Chosen One, had his ego become bloated thanks to Palpatine (while others such as Obi-Wan tried to temper it, often hurting his feelings) and made it so much easier for the Dark Side to consume him (I am the Chosen One, so I must be right with the Force.)
Lets not forget Anakin still had a parent, even if he was a slave and later separated from her.
Who was a slave for years after, who he last saw when he was 9 and who died in capitivty, suffering. You can argue all day about it, but Naruto itself has this as a conflict between Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto lost his parents as an infant (like, presumably, Obito) whereas Sasuke lost his as a young child.
As Sasuke argued, Naruto doesn't understand what it feels like to lose somebody you care about. Naruto and Obito learned this lesson at around the same age (albeit, Sasuke just left rather than dying but from Naruto's perspective it was as good as dead due to Orochimaru).
Obito was also actively fighting in the Third Shinobi World War, and it's heavily implied that he was killing people he didn't know. If I'm not mistaken, Anakin wasn't a child solider.
Disney-wise, Anakin has been doing missions since his early teens and been in life-or-death situations.
In Legends? Anakin was in life-or-death fights at the age of 12, and his first kill (against a sapient) was at the age of 13.
Said clan ostracizes him for this, and on top of that he's shunned from the rest of the village due to the animosity towards the Uchiha. It's also implied he dealt with bullying in his youth as well.
To memory, Anakin was ostracized and bullied by his peers in the temple due to his old age and status as the Chosen One. So, the same story but for different reasons.
Mind you, this contributes to Palpatine claiming the Jedi are jealous of Anakin's power.
He spends possibly close to a year recovering in this cave (going off how his hair grew) where he was trained by Madara. And very likely spoonfed his ideology.
If we go based on comics and novels for Legends and Disney, Anakin has been groomed one-on-one by Palpatine since he was about 12 years old. Having even done missions by himself as Palpatine's company.
Not much is shown after this. But we do know that Obito would go on to spend a full 17 or so years in near-total isolation. His only "companion" being Zetsu. I can only imagine solitude for that long ****** up his mind even further.
Isolation which he chose. Madara died shortly after Rin's death, and Obito had all of the power and ability in the world to just go back to Konoha. We also know he's been manipulating the Akatsuki and Kiri since his early teens, interacting with others to manipulate them.
He wasn't in 'solitude', he just didn't trust anyone with letting them into his mind or heart, intending on using everybody for his plans.
Regarding his crimes, Obito was already committing genocide in his early teens, attempted baby murder when he was only 13-14 and tried to destroy the entirety of Konoha (murdering his teacher and his wife and causing their child's life to be screwed). Which, to me, is a tad more abrupt than Anakin (a jaded child soldier turned adult general) being manipulated since he was a young child, corrupted by the eldritch Dark Side and then turned against the Jedi completely before he went as far as to believe it was 'right' to genocide them.
I don't know, Obito just seemed like he took to mass-murder and crimes against humanity a little too easily.
Anakin's turning was a gradual process that took place over the course of nearly several years in the films, and implied to have been occurring prior to Attack of the Clones.
So not only would he be highly emotional (bonus points for being an Uchiha),
I mentioned this, and dismissed it. I don't recall it being mentioned until pretty late into the 4th War arc so it felt more contrived than anything in Anakin's fall to me.
Anakin was literally born from the force, with the highest latent potential of anyone in his universe.
And it caused him intense stress and was a point of manipulation for Palpatine. He was pressured as the Chosen One, had his ego become bloated thanks to Palpatine (while others such as Obi-Wan tried to temper it, often hurting his feelings) and made it so much easier for the Dark Side to consume him (I am the Chosen One, so I must be right with the Force.)
Lets not forget Anakin still had a parent, even if he was a slave and later separated from her.
Who was a slave for years after, who he last saw when he was 9 and who died in capitivty, suffering. You can argue all day about it, but Naruto itself has this as a conflict between Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto lost his parents as an infant (like, presumably, Obito) whereas Sasuke lost his as a young child.
As Sasuke argued, Naruto doesn't understand what it feels like to lose somebody you care about. Naruto and Obito learned this lesson at around the same age (albeit, Sasuke just left rather than dying but from Naruto's perspective it was as good as dead due to Orochimaru).
Obito was also actively fighting in the Third Shinobi World War, and it's heavily implied that he was killing people he didn't know. If I'm not mistaken, Anakin wasn't a child solider.
Disney-wise, Anakin has been doing missions since his early teens and been in life-or-death situations.
In Legends? Anakin was in life-or-death fights at the age of 12, and his first kill (against a sapient) was at the age of 13.
Said clan ostracizes him for this, and on top of that he's shunned from the rest of the village due to the animosity towards the Uchiha. It's also implied he dealt with bullying in his youth as well.
To memory, Anakin was ostracized and bullied by his peers in the temple due to his old age and status as the Chosen One. So, the same story but for different reasons.
Mind you, this contributes to Palpatine claiming the Jedi are jealous of Anakin's power.
He spends possibly close to a year recovering in this cave (going off how his hair grew) where he was trained by Madara. And very likely spoonfed his ideology.
If we go based on comics and novels for Legends and Disney, Anakin has been groomed one-on-one by Palpatine since he was about 12 years old. Having even done missions by himself as Palpatine's company.
Not much is shown after this. But we do know that Obito would go on to spend a full 17 or so years in near-total isolation. His only "companion" being Zetsu. I can only imagine solitude for that long ****** up his mind even further.
Isolation which he chose. Madara died shortly after Rin's death, and Obito had all of the power and ability in the world to just go back to Konoha. We also know he's been manipulating the Akatsuki and Kiri since his early teens, interacting with others to manipulate them.
He wasn't in 'solitude', he just didn't trust anyone with letting them into his mind or heart, intending on using everybody for his plans.
Regarding his crimes, Obito was already committing genocide in his early teens, attempted baby murder when he was only 13-14 and tried to destroy the entirety of Konoha (murdering his teacher and his wife and causing their child's life to be screwed). Which, to me, is a tad more abrupt than Anakin (a jaded child soldier turned adult general) being manipulated since he was a young child, corrupted by the eldritch Dark Side and then turned against the Jedi completely before he went as far as to believe it was 'right' to genocide them.
I don't know, Obito just seemed like he took to mass-murder and crimes against humanity a little too easily.
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> Clone Wars makes it more gradual and we barely see 'hero of the galaxy' Anakin in the films. Film Anakin was in a clear downward spiral from Day 1.
Which is the problem, if you need a separate medium to make something in the films work then there's something wrong with the films.
> The only thing contrived about it, would be Anakin's force visions being a thing in AoTC and then RoTS. Anakin was never depicted as particularly close or fond of the Temple in the films (to my memory anyways) so the only issue is how he willingly killed children.
the latter is exactly why it's contrived and lazy, Anakin from literary standpoint fits the archetype of a tragic Villain or Hero, the idea behind this and according to Lucas is the larger subtext of how someone good can become evil, which is why It's meant to be "Tragic" because we don't want this to happen to Anakin, we cant believe it's happening to this good person, in the context of the films there's nothing tragic about it, it's as plain as day, in Attack of the Clones alone we see how Anakin is Brash,Selfish, arrogant, Emotionally Manipulative, authoritarian and disregard for rules, Anakin has no business being Dellusioned with the Jedi at this point, these are character flaws that people attempt to use to justify his turn but that completely misses the point of Anakin's character, these are all character traits dark sider users have, are we going to imply Palpatine,Darth Maul and every other Sith are tragic Figures?
Anakin's drive to save Padme as a crux for why he turns completely evil to doesnt work either, Anakin is entirely placing this entire life on a guess made by Palpatine a person he later finds out is the Sith lord orchestrating everything, including the war that's keeping him and his wife apart and stopping him from going with her to keep their baby safe on Naboo, Anakin could have turned in Palpatine or let him die thus completing his destiny and retiring from the Jedi order with Padme.
Anakin as a character is broken in the films, it's the expanded universe and series that really flesh this out.
so TLDR imo
Obito >movie Anakin
EU Anakin>Obito
Which is the problem, if you need a separate medium to make something in the films work then there's something wrong with the films.
> The only thing contrived about it, would be Anakin's force visions being a thing in AoTC and then RoTS. Anakin was never depicted as particularly close or fond of the Temple in the films (to my memory anyways) so the only issue is how he willingly killed children.
the latter is exactly why it's contrived and lazy, Anakin from literary standpoint fits the archetype of a tragic Villain or Hero, the idea behind this and according to Lucas is the larger subtext of how someone good can become evil, which is why It's meant to be "Tragic" because we don't want this to happen to Anakin, we cant believe it's happening to this good person, in the context of the films there's nothing tragic about it, it's as plain as day, in Attack of the Clones alone we see how Anakin is Brash,Selfish, arrogant, Emotionally Manipulative, authoritarian and disregard for rules, Anakin has no business being Dellusioned with the Jedi at this point, these are character flaws that people attempt to use to justify his turn but that completely misses the point of Anakin's character, these are all character traits dark sider users have, are we going to imply Palpatine,Darth Maul and every other Sith are tragic Figures?
Anakin's drive to save Padme as a crux for why he turns completely evil to doesnt work either, Anakin is entirely placing this entire life on a guess made by Palpatine a person he later finds out is the Sith lord orchestrating everything, including the war that's keeping him and his wife apart and stopping him from going with her to keep their baby safe on Naboo, Anakin could have turned in Palpatine or let him die thus completing his destiny and retiring from the Jedi order with Padme.
Anakin as a character is broken in the films, it's the expanded universe and series that really flesh this out.
so TLDR imo
Obito >movie Anakin
EU Anakin>Obito
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Which is the problem, if you need a separate medium to make something in the films work then there's something wrong with the films.
It isn't a problem. 'Hero of the Galaxy' Anakin isn't much of a thing in the films. It was more of a Clone Wars development.
in Attack of the Clones alone we see how Anakin is Brash,Selfish, arrogant, Emotionally Manipulative, authoritarian and disregard for rules, Anakin has no business being Dellusioned with the Jedi at this point, these are character flaws that people attempt to use to justify his turn but that completely misses the point of Anakin's character, these are all character traits dark sider users have, are we going to imply Palpatine,Darth Maul and every other Sith are tragic Figures?
The entire argument is about who has the more realistic downfall, and you just admitted here that Anakin has all of the traits of someone who falls to the dark side.
He's disillusioned by the Jedi, because Yoda (the grandmaster of the entire order) basically told him to just cope with his visions, and it resulted in his mother being tortured to death. What other motivation do you require for Anakin to resent and dislike the Jedi Order's ways?
Anakin is entirely placing this entire life on a guess made by Palpatine a person he later finds out is the Sith lord orchestrating everything, including the war that's keeping him and his wife apart and stopping him from going with her to keep their baby safe on Naboo,
Palpatine has been grooming and gaining Anakin's trust since he was a young child. I don't even know what you mean by a 'guess' either, Palpatine outright states that Plagueis could save others from death and Anakin had been suffering visions of Padme's demise (reflecting from his mother's tortured death) long before Palpatine spoke with Anakin.
Anakin actively wanted access to the Jedi Archives to gain access to knowledge regarding force healing, and was denied it.
Yoda had already dismissed Anakin's worries over deaths/suffering in his visions before, stating Anakin had to let go of his attachment/grief.
It was either: Ignore his visions (which resulted in mother being tortured to death all alone) or learn from Palpatine to save his wife and unborn child.
Anakin could have turned in Palpatine or let him die thus completing his destiny and retiring from the Jedi order with Padme.
Anakin has the power to see the future, had forseen his mother's death and failed to save her due to trying to ignore said vision. Why would he think he can just retire from the order and live with Padme when he thinks she's going to die and only the force could save her?
Obito >movie Anaki
Obito had dozens of chapters and episodes to build him up, explain his motivations and establish him as having a realistic good-to-evil fall.
Film Anakin had three movies, two if you don't count Phantom Menace (where he was mostly a background character, a young child and was mainly building up to its events screwing with him in AoTC).
Factoring in the plot, the characters, action scenes, etc...Anakin had far less time to develop than Obito did, yet arguably was much better handled writing-wise.
It isn't a problem. 'Hero of the Galaxy' Anakin isn't much of a thing in the films. It was more of a Clone Wars development.
in Attack of the Clones alone we see how Anakin is Brash,Selfish, arrogant, Emotionally Manipulative, authoritarian and disregard for rules, Anakin has no business being Dellusioned with the Jedi at this point, these are character flaws that people attempt to use to justify his turn but that completely misses the point of Anakin's character, these are all character traits dark sider users have, are we going to imply Palpatine,Darth Maul and every other Sith are tragic Figures?
The entire argument is about who has the more realistic downfall, and you just admitted here that Anakin has all of the traits of someone who falls to the dark side.
He's disillusioned by the Jedi, because Yoda (the grandmaster of the entire order) basically told him to just cope with his visions, and it resulted in his mother being tortured to death. What other motivation do you require for Anakin to resent and dislike the Jedi Order's ways?
Anakin is entirely placing this entire life on a guess made by Palpatine a person he later finds out is the Sith lord orchestrating everything, including the war that's keeping him and his wife apart and stopping him from going with her to keep their baby safe on Naboo,
Palpatine has been grooming and gaining Anakin's trust since he was a young child. I don't even know what you mean by a 'guess' either, Palpatine outright states that Plagueis could save others from death and Anakin had been suffering visions of Padme's demise (reflecting from his mother's tortured death) long before Palpatine spoke with Anakin.
Anakin actively wanted access to the Jedi Archives to gain access to knowledge regarding force healing, and was denied it.
Yoda had already dismissed Anakin's worries over deaths/suffering in his visions before, stating Anakin had to let go of his attachment/grief.
It was either: Ignore his visions (which resulted in mother being tortured to death all alone) or learn from Palpatine to save his wife and unborn child.
Anakin could have turned in Palpatine or let him die thus completing his destiny and retiring from the Jedi order with Padme.
Anakin has the power to see the future, had forseen his mother's death and failed to save her due to trying to ignore said vision. Why would he think he can just retire from the order and live with Padme when he thinks she's going to die and only the force could save her?
Obito >movie Anaki
Obito had dozens of chapters and episodes to build him up, explain his motivations and establish him as having a realistic good-to-evil fall.
Film Anakin had three movies, two if you don't count Phantom Menace (where he was mostly a background character, a young child and was mainly building up to its events screwing with him in AoTC).
Factoring in the plot, the characters, action scenes, etc...Anakin had far less time to develop than Obito did, yet arguably was much better handled writing-wise.
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I'll get back to this later. Did you seriously try and claim that Anakin murdering children is somehow not worse than any of Obito's crimes? Let alone standing by while Tarkin kills billions? There's so much wrong with your above arguments, I'm unsure on how to begin. What is your point exactly? To argue that Obito's life and suffering doesn't matter?
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Anakin was more evil IMO.
All similarities aside, and crimes aside, Obito had a more benevolent goal and was much less of a psychopath. You didn't see him threatening Nagato, Kisame or anyone else, or cracking Zetsu necks like you would see with Vader.
While both of them caught on to their master's manipulations and just said "**** it, I'll be bad", Obito was manipulated by Madara only after he had lost his closest friend to the person he trusted basically half his power to (and he didn't even really like Kakashi that much), and wasn't even going to come back at first. He may have liked Minato but I doubt that matter anywhere near as much as Rin. He otherwise had no one and only became truly evil when he had nothing to lose.
Anakin was manipulated by Sidious after Windu's death, where he still had good friends in Obi-Wan and some members of the order (the only one to really bully him was Windu himself. Otherwise Anakin was respected by everyone in the order), a loving wife and good future prospects, and was renowned as a hero to the galaxy. He chose to be an evil ************ instead of trying to fight Palpatine, who at this point, anyone could see is an evil sociopath at this point, once he first, is basically told in roundabout way that knowing how to save Padme was a lie, and second, is ordering him to slaughter. A fight he very likely could've won (even by this wiki's standards, at least in canon) considering Palpatine was exhausted from fight with Windu.
I like Vader way more btw.
All similarities aside, and crimes aside, Obito had a more benevolent goal and was much less of a psychopath. You didn't see him threatening Nagato, Kisame or anyone else, or cracking Zetsu necks like you would see with Vader.
While both of them caught on to their master's manipulations and just said "**** it, I'll be bad", Obito was manipulated by Madara only after he had lost his closest friend to the person he trusted basically half his power to (and he didn't even really like Kakashi that much), and wasn't even going to come back at first. He may have liked Minato but I doubt that matter anywhere near as much as Rin. He otherwise had no one and only became truly evil when he had nothing to lose.
Anakin was manipulated by Sidious after Windu's death, where he still had good friends in Obi-Wan and some members of the order (the only one to really bully him was Windu himself. Otherwise Anakin was respected by everyone in the order), a loving wife and good future prospects, and was renowned as a hero to the galaxy. He chose to be an evil ************ instead of trying to fight Palpatine, who at this point, anyone could see is an evil sociopath at this point, once he first, is basically told in roundabout way that knowing how to save Padme was a lie, and second, is ordering him to slaughter. A fight he very likely could've won (even by this wiki's standards, at least in canon) considering Palpatine was exhausted from fight with Windu.
I like Vader way more btw.
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Did you seriously try and claim that Anakin murdering children is somehow not worse than any of Obito's crimes?
Where did I even begin to claim this? All I said is that Obito's corruption and crimes were more abrupt than Anakin undergoing manipulation and corruption since he was a young child.
Let alone standing by while Tarkin kills billions?
This thead is about Anakin, not Darth Vader. Vader watching Tarkin blow up Alderaan was 20+ years after Anakin fell.
What is your point exactly? To argue that Obito's life and suffering doesn't matter?
This comment is oddly personal sounding to me.
No, I'm not arguing that Obito's 'life and suffering doesn't matter'. I am arguing that Anakin has better writing than Obito. The topic of the thread.
The overall pacing, development and reasoning behind Anakin's fall is superior, to me, even with just the films. This is due to Anakin:
To compare, what happened to Obito?
Let me put it this way, Obito is like...if Darth Maul murdered Anakin's mother in the Phantom Menace, Anakin was trained by Dooku for less than a year and then he went onto slaughtering the entire Jedi Temple and razing worlds by the time he was 14. Yet in the actual story, Anakin only tasted the darkness against the Tuskens, slaughtering a tribe of creatures he considered to be animals. It was years after this, that he started to slaughter what he considered sapients, to save his wife.
Overall, Obito's lack of morality and willingness to slaughter his own village from a under year of experience is just bizarre, compared to Anakin who underwent many years of steady descent.
Where did I even begin to claim this? All I said is that Obito's corruption and crimes were more abrupt than Anakin undergoing manipulation and corruption since he was a young child.
Let alone standing by while Tarkin kills billions?
This thead is about Anakin, not Darth Vader. Vader watching Tarkin blow up Alderaan was 20+ years after Anakin fell.
What is your point exactly? To argue that Obito's life and suffering doesn't matter?
This comment is oddly personal sounding to me.
No, I'm not arguing that Obito's 'life and suffering doesn't matter'. I am arguing that Anakin has better writing than Obito. The topic of the thread.
The overall pacing, development and reasoning behind Anakin's fall is superior, to me, even with just the films. This is due to Anakin:
- Being a slave since he was born
- Having to leave his mother behind for freedom
- Being raised by the Jedi Order
- Trained by an inexperienced Knight
- Having his constant visions of his mother dying be dismissed by the Jedi Grandmaster
- Discovering his mother was tortured to death, causing him to go on a rampage
- Having to deal with the Jedi Order's general distrust for him from day one
- A strained relationship with Obi-Wan, the only person he is ever shown to like in the Order besides Qui-Gon (Film-wise)
- Constant visions of his pregnant wife dying
- Fighting in, and ending, a galactic-wide war
- Witnessing Mace Windu, somebody who has never been positive towards Anakin, who has constantly distrusted him, a Jedi Master of extreme ability and repute attempt to murder an unarmed, 'defenceless' man instead of taking him to face justice
- Finding his only option is to either join the Sith Lord to save his wife or let his wife and child die.
To compare, what happened to Obito?
- He MIGHT be an orphan
- He MIGHT have been an outcast as a Uchiha
- He saw Rin die at Kakashi's hand
- Was mentored by Madara for under a year, who then died
Let me put it this way, Obito is like...if Darth Maul murdered Anakin's mother in the Phantom Menace, Anakin was trained by Dooku for less than a year and then he went onto slaughtering the entire Jedi Temple and razing worlds by the time he was 14. Yet in the actual story, Anakin only tasted the darkness against the Tuskens, slaughtering a tribe of creatures he considered to be animals. It was years after this, that he started to slaughter what he considered sapients, to save his wife.
Overall, Obito's lack of morality and willingness to slaughter his own village from a under year of experience is just bizarre, compared to Anakin who underwent many years of steady descent.
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Good to know you really haven't looked into Obito;s story...like at all.
Those arent "Mights". Those were facts. And You purposely fail to elaborate on that. So let me spell it out for you.
Obito WAS an orphan.
Obito WAS an outcast from not just the Uchiha, but everyone. His clan was disliked by the village, and were naturally protegees and geniuses within.
He didn't just see her die at Kakashi's hand. Kakashi was Obito's rival, who he still didn't even like that much. He entrusted half of his ocular power, witch he'd worked for years to finally aquire. Only to see him murdering his best friend/crush out of context. Imagine if Anakin saw Obi-Wan shoving a lightsaber through Padme's chest? You think he wouldn't snap right then and there?
It's surprising how easily a child's mind can be indoctrinated isn't it? Your comparisons to Anakin at the same age are invalid. Anakin was only groomed from the background, and never a full bown apprentice of Sidious untill he was a grown man. What you fail to grasp is that children's minds are much more accepting of indoctrination and corruption. I've got no doubt that Anakin would've turned to the dark side very quickly if he was taken as a full sith apprentice at a younger age.
Madara isn't just some generic evil guy. He's literally Naruto's Darth Sidious. He mentioned somewhere that he prefers to corrupt idealistic people like Obito, because they feel negative emotions much more strongly.
And as much as he likes to claim otherwise. Vader and Anakin are still technically the same person. That's kinda like saying Obito isn't responsible for killing Konan because he was pretending to be Madara/Tobi at the time. Tomato, Tamato. Anakin/Vader watched as billions died.
Overall. I find your inability to read more into Obito's story bizzare.And I'm pretty sure if Anakin were to
A: Have half his body crushed, and give his lightsaber to Obi-Wan
B: Wake up in a cave with Darth Sidious, and be extensively trained by him for over a year.
C: Escape the cave, and watch Obi-Wan stab the lightsaber he gifted through Padme's chest.
He'd very easily turn to the dark side.
My point? Obito's fall is believable.
Lets also not forget that Anakin had much more to live for than Obito did. Despite some aminosity from the Jedi Order, he was still regarded as a galactic hero, and highly respected. In his later years, he had a good relationship with Obi-Wan, and a loving wife, with a child on the way. Lets not forget he still had the highest latent force potential ever recorded. In the end he still CHOSE to be a villain.
Obito had none of that.
Those arent "Mights". Those were facts. And You purposely fail to elaborate on that. So let me spell it out for you.
Obito WAS an orphan.
Obito WAS an outcast from not just the Uchiha, but everyone. His clan was disliked by the village, and were naturally protegees and geniuses within.
He didn't just see her die at Kakashi's hand. Kakashi was Obito's rival, who he still didn't even like that much. He entrusted half of his ocular power, witch he'd worked for years to finally aquire. Only to see him murdering his best friend/crush out of context. Imagine if Anakin saw Obi-Wan shoving a lightsaber through Padme's chest? You think he wouldn't snap right then and there?
It's surprising how easily a child's mind can be indoctrinated isn't it? Your comparisons to Anakin at the same age are invalid. Anakin was only groomed from the background, and never a full bown apprentice of Sidious untill he was a grown man. What you fail to grasp is that children's minds are much more accepting of indoctrination and corruption. I've got no doubt that Anakin would've turned to the dark side very quickly if he was taken as a full sith apprentice at a younger age.
Madara isn't just some generic evil guy. He's literally Naruto's Darth Sidious. He mentioned somewhere that he prefers to corrupt idealistic people like Obito, because they feel negative emotions much more strongly.
And as much as he likes to claim otherwise. Vader and Anakin are still technically the same person. That's kinda like saying Obito isn't responsible for killing Konan because he was pretending to be Madara/Tobi at the time. Tomato, Tamato. Anakin/Vader watched as billions died.
Overall. I find your inability to read more into Obito's story bizzare.And I'm pretty sure if Anakin were to
A: Have half his body crushed, and give his lightsaber to Obi-Wan
B: Wake up in a cave with Darth Sidious, and be extensively trained by him for over a year.
C: Escape the cave, and watch Obi-Wan stab the lightsaber he gifted through Padme's chest.
He'd very easily turn to the dark side.
My point? Obito's fall is believable.
Lets also not forget that Anakin had much more to live for than Obito did. Despite some aminosity from the Jedi Order, he was still regarded as a galactic hero, and highly respected. In his later years, he had a good relationship with Obi-Wan, and a loving wife, with a child on the way. Lets not forget he still had the highest latent force potential ever recorded. In the end he still CHOSE to be a villain.
Obito had none of that.
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Anakin, very easily. Both in the movies and Clone Wars.
It is not like Anakin enjoyed murdering the children; he was crying in Mustafar and making excuses after all. Anakin was 100% convinced that if he doesn't do anything then his wife and future children are going to die, because the visions happened with his mother too. According to the Jedi code, Anakin is to ignore his visions and abandon his wife, and he is taught and instructed to suppress his emotions by the Jedi, he is also convinced that the Jedi are hypocritical, and self-righteous and that they are as power-hungry as anyone else due to Palpatine's manipulation. Despite being one of the most powerful Jedi and a war hero, he can't get unrestricted access to the archives to research how to save his wife, nor can he get promoted to a master, attributing this to the Jedi Council's distrust.
After he attacked Mace (after seeing him trying to execute a seemingly defenseless man to initiate a coup) and the Jedi are declared traitors, his only path is to side with Palpatine. And Palpatine told him that he needs to give in completely to the Dark Side and to show no mercy if he hopes to save Padme. This is why he personally murdered the children; letting the clones handle it would be showing hesitation and allowing Padme to die.
This is much more coherent than Obito attempting to commit genocides and scheme to start wars so he can have a dream world where he spends time with his 13 years old crush. (Not sure how he started the Bloody Mist era by using Genjutsu on the Fourth Mizukage, even though he is a perfect Jinchuriki)
It would be understandable if he wanted revenge or to watch the world burn, but the long-term planning and the absurd collateral damage it involves is non-sensical. His villain arc is underwhelming writing-wise as well:
Anaking already murdered children at that point to avenge his mother.Shadowbokunohero said:
It is not like Anakin enjoyed murdering the children; he was crying in Mustafar and making excuses after all. Anakin was 100% convinced that if he doesn't do anything then his wife and future children are going to die, because the visions happened with his mother too. According to the Jedi code, Anakin is to ignore his visions and abandon his wife, and he is taught and instructed to suppress his emotions by the Jedi, he is also convinced that the Jedi are hypocritical, and self-righteous and that they are as power-hungry as anyone else due to Palpatine's manipulation. Despite being one of the most powerful Jedi and a war hero, he can't get unrestricted access to the archives to research how to save his wife, nor can he get promoted to a master, attributing this to the Jedi Council's distrust.
After he attacked Mace (after seeing him trying to execute a seemingly defenseless man to initiate a coup) and the Jedi are declared traitors, his only path is to side with Palpatine. And Palpatine told him that he needs to give in completely to the Dark Side and to show no mercy if he hopes to save Padme. This is why he personally murdered the children; letting the clones handle it would be showing hesitation and allowing Padme to die.
This is much more coherent than Obito attempting to commit genocides and scheme to start wars so he can have a dream world where he spends time with his 13 years old crush. (Not sure how he started the Bloody Mist era by using Genjutsu on the Fourth Mizukage, even though he is a perfect Jinchuriki)
It would be understandable if he wanted revenge or to watch the world burn, but the long-term planning and the absurd collateral damage it involves is non-sensical. His villain arc is underwhelming writing-wise as well:
- He declares war against the Kage, instead of say assassinating a Kage and causing distrust, or keep trying to kidnap Naruto and Killer B to extract their Biju.
- Despite the war arcs being almost half the chapter length of Shippuden, and having multiple months of ceasefire and timeskip between the declaration of war and the war starting, the entire things ends in less than three days
- He didn't actually have a plan for the war besides the Zetsu clones fodders he fails to utilize effectively (the spore things used against the Mizukage to save Sasuke is OP). It turns out that Kabuto created an army of regenerating zombies with unlimited Chakra without Obito's knowledge, and Kabuto threatened Obito into letting him fight on his side. Without Kabuto, the overwhelmingly under-prepared Obito would be toast.
- Obito's involvement in the war arc also refuted Madara being a 5D chess genius. Obito had no intention to revive Madara, and Madara had no way to predict Kabuto abusing Edo Tensei. Madara's manipulation was not good enough to make Obito loyal to him, but Obito went through all lengths to fulfill the broad lines of his plans, so no Madara is not Naruto's Darth Sidious.
(That is Black Zetsu) - Obito attacks Konan because she wants to keep the Rinnengan eyes in tact for some reason, and survives her trap because it turns out he can use the secret Izanagi technique, and that he had two Sharingan eyes all along. (ninjas don't want depth perception?) After getting the Rinnengan and saying that it is itching for battle, he barely utilizes it at all. He doesn't utilize his Wood Release either.
- It turns out that extracting Biju from Jinchuriki, a process that took multiple days, is not necessary to awaken the Ten Tails; you just need a little Chakra all along (makes the whole kidnapping and genocide things kinda pointless). So Obito gets the 9 tails Chakra from undead of pseudo-Jinchuriki twins, and he got 8 tails Chakra from one of its tentacles.
- He never really believed what he was spewing out, and deep down he just wanted to be that kid who became Hokage.
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"Obito attempting to commit genocides and scheme to start wars so he can have a dream world where he spends time with his 13 years old crush"
This line right here completely invalidates your argument, and shows that you very clearly didn't pay attention.. If all he wanted was to be with Rin, why the **** didn't he revive her with Edo-Tensei, or manipulate Nagato into using Rinne-Tensei on her? You probably also think he's a pedophile as well don't you?
Youtube comments-tier debater right here peeps.
This line right here completely invalidates your argument, and shows that you very clearly didn't pay attention.. If all he wanted was to be with Rin, why the **** didn't he revive her with Edo-Tensei, or manipulate Nagato into using Rinne-Tensei on her? You probably also think he's a pedophile as well don't you?
Youtube comments-tier debater right here peeps.
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Your point? Nobody actually thinks Obito is a good guy.Aernasilver said:
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Haha that never gets old.
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I mean, I paid reasonable attention to chapter 606.
Obito: [Answering Madara's question on whether he was showing mercy to Kakashi] No... It was fine either way. Whether he lives or dies in this world... Because he will exist in the world we will create... Along with Rin. Teach me how to create the dream world, Madara.
So yeah... Obito could've achieved his dream by putting himself in a powerful pleasant Genjutsu. He alternatively could've revived Rin. He unironicly and canonically would probably dream of being a super-talented genin (talent >>> hardwork), marrying Rin, and becoming Hokage. This is extremely creepy, but whether you consider this pedophilia is up to you, though I guess the feudal military society demands children to mentally grow up faster.
I am not claiming to have figured out Obito. For that matter, I am not claiming that it is possible to figure out what the heck Obito was thinking in the first place.
Obito: [Answering Madara's question on whether he was showing mercy to Kakashi] No... It was fine either way. Whether he lives or dies in this world... Because he will exist in the world we will create... Along with Rin. Teach me how to create the dream world, Madara.
So yeah... Obito could've achieved his dream by putting himself in a powerful pleasant Genjutsu. He alternatively could've revived Rin. He unironicly and canonically would probably dream of being a super-talented genin (talent >>> hardwork), marrying Rin, and becoming Hokage. This is extremely creepy, but whether you consider this pedophilia is up to you, though I guess the feudal military society demands children to mentally grow up faster.
I am not claiming to have figured out Obito. For that matter, I am not claiming that it is possible to figure out what the heck Obito was thinking in the first place.
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I'm not even going to dignify this youtube-tier comment with a response. At least the people above are capable of debating in a logical fashion.Crimson7867 said:
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Then convince me that Obito is in fact a "garbage character". And you're going to need to do a proper job at it. I've heard, and debunked the Rin arguments, and all of their variants several times over.
Going by your brief comment history. I can see you getting yourself banned from the wiki in some months time. I meet new users like you all the time. So I've got pretty low expectations.
Going by your brief comment history. I can see you getting yourself banned from the wiki in some months time. I meet new users like you all the time. So I've got pretty low expectations.
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I've removed Crimson's comments. Report inbound.
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I like Anakin in general.
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Obito honestly needs his own story equivalent to the Clone Wars. You can look at the bigger picture, infer, and make headcannon as much as you like. But bad writing is still bad writing. This is why Anakin was poorly received before the Clone Wars was made.
