Nioh vs Sekiro : My patience dies twice

[Mr. Bambu]

The lightning isn't real lightning, read the Raikiri item description. It makes a distinction between real lightning and stuff that looks like it but is actually Yokai stuff.

Sorry.

 

[QrowBarr]

Well that's an oopsie.

Where does the 7-A tier come from tho?

 

[Dienomite22]

Raikiri's description isn't calling Yokai lightning not real lightning, it's saying that the person who made the description believe it's impossible for even a good swordsman to cut lightning so instead they interpret the legend as Dosetsu fighting a lightning based yokai rather than him actually intercepting a lightning bolt:

First part of Raikiri's description:

"In 1548, as Dosetsu napped beneath a tree in his home town of Bungo, a sudden storm swept in and Dosetsu intercepted a lightning bolt with his sword, Chidori. In reality, of course, even the finest swordsman couldn't possibly cut a bolt of lightning. Thus many interpret the legend as Dosetsu facing off against a Yokai such as a Nue or Raiju."

Paired Raiken description:

"Legend has it that when Tachibana Ginchiyo's father, Tachibana Dosetsu, succeeded at cutting lightning, the defeated lightning spirit transformed into a Raiken, and has served as the Tachibana family's guardian spirit ever since. It is said that every Raiken has a mate, and their true power manifests when they are paired."

Together we can conclude the Raikiri's description is made with a bit of uncertainity based off it's wording and not knowing Raiken was the spirit that Dosetsu defeated and Raiken was the "lightning" that Dosetsu cut. I believe you get Raikiri and Paired Raiken togther based off my memory so their descriptions are likely meant to compliment each other plus it wouldn't make sense that all other elements are real while lightning isn't.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well that's an oopsie.

Where does the 7-A tier come from tho?

More reasonable interpretation of "natural disasters"; 7A is the strongest natural disaster I could find reference of in Japan, a 9.1 earthquake. Merging the Yokai World isn't an AP feat.

@Dieno

It doesn't cast any uncertainty. Raikiri goes further in depth on the legend, Paired Raiken just expands on it. It does set a precedent for real lightning being different than a lightning yokai, thus the feat is invalid.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Mr. Bambu

Raikiri's description literally states "...Thus many interpret the legend as Dosetsu facing off against a Yokai such as a Nue or Raiju..." that's uncertainty and the Paired Raiken description tells us what Dosetsu cut was a spirit, not an actual lightning bolt "..succeeded at cutting lightning , the defeated lightning spirit transformed into a Raiken.." .

This doesn't mean yokai lightning is different from real lightning, just that the Dosetsu legend was mistaken in what was cut. It would be different if the statement was "...Thus many interpret the legend as Dosetsu cutting lightning from Yokai such as a Nue also known as Raiju..."

 

[Dienomite22]

Also, I can't find anything that would actually put in Umi Bozu in the tier 7 range. The descriptions doesn't say much feat wise outside of any tiny movement it does can sink a ship to the bottem of the ocean but other than that it says nothing so scratch Umi Bozu off that list.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I didn't say Umi Bozu was tier 7. Willing to bet he's Tier 8 pretty easily since fragging a normal ship is like 9A, and he does that thing where he leaps out of the water.

The Raikiri thing is well within the areas of reasonable doubt, as it also says nobody could possibly cut real lightning and that people believe real lightning is mistakeable for yokai lightning.

One statement literally calls the less expanded upon one into question. That's the beginning and end of it brother.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Regarding the Kicho (Yuki Onna) boss, we have no idea how long that took to freeze Kyoto. We are told it has begun randomly showing, and that's pretty much it.

 

[Dienomite22]

I used Umi Bozu as a reason to put William at tier 7 earlier so I was pointing out I was wrong their upon further research.

The descriptions about Dosetsu cutting lightning even taken alone isn't implying lightning and yakai lightning are different. Sorry to repeat what I'm saying over and over but it's simply saying "a lightning bolt can't be cut by even the most skilled swordsman so most interpret the legend as Dosetsu facing a lightning based yokai and that yokai was Raiken, a lightning spirit" and we know lightning based yokai can be cut and defeated in verse. Don't want to waste time going in circles about it so I'll just drop it here.

I don't remember the Yuki onna stuff in detail besides her description stating her grief turned kyoto into snow but if it's over an unspecified time then that shouldn't count for tier 7 either.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ah, right.

Yes it is. It creates a distinction between possible and impossible. It is i.possible to cut lightning, not impossible to cut a yokai. Thus everything else depends on the interpretation of this and that alone.

Yeah like I said, I'm feeling tier 8 early game. Might even make a BoG key since when we first see Umi Bozu up in leaving Kyushu we're told we couldn't possibly take it on.

 

[Dienomite22]

That's the thing, we are told what is being cut in the legend and it's a lightning spirit, not a lightning bolt or lightning bolt produced by a yokai. The descriptions tells us explicitly that lightning can't be cut and so commoners take the legends as Dosetsu battling a yokai that uses lightning such as Nue instead, not that Dosetsu cuts yokai lightning which the description would have specified if that were the case.

Will his profile be peak beginning, peak middle and peak late-game? or BoG, middle and late? The former should be easier to comprehend.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And that is your interpretation. See above for my take on this supposed feat.

Might need more keys than that. BoG, Early Game, Mid game, EoG.

 

[Dienomite22]

I see your take but I just can't understand how you got to that conclusion to be frank. Probably best to discuss this in the CRT whenever it get's put out.

I'm trying to think of a way that would make the that tiering fit nicely with the story, William's training and gear but I can't think of anything unless BoG is literally the starting prison, I don't know if that split would work but I probably have to sleep on it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fair enough I guess.

I mean. The story acknowledges that consumption of Amrita causes superior strength. BoG would basically be the Kyushu stuff.

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

Ashen One wins via barrel roll

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Hunter FRA.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Chosen Undead for the reasons below.

 

[QrowBarr]

Chosen Undead FRA.