NEP page thing

[Astral_Trinity439]

So this wording from the NEP page has been bugging me for a damn while:

Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. These characters often have some form of Paraconsistent Physiology due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.

I don't get why "opposing existence" would be a property of NEP2 when we take NEP2 as beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence.

Also, on another note, even "preceding" existence wouldn't be NEP2, no? That is still something NEP1 can also show/have.

This has been there ever since I first joined vsbw. I noticed it back then too but I forgot later and then became too lazy :v

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

I don't get why "opposing existence" would be a property of NEP2 when we take NEP2 as beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence.

Because the beyond of existence and nonexistence isn’t absolute, not even Tier 0 is. You need to be nonexistent to even argue Nep 2; that is the reason why it is there.

Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.

Also, on another note, even "preceding" existence wouldn't be NEP2, no? That is still something NEP1 can also show/have.

Same reason as above, it isn’t there to show how to argue Nep 2 transcendence, but to show that the character in question, with transcendence over being and nonbeing, is nonexistent.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Because the beyond of existence and nonexistence isn’t absolute, not even Tier 0 is. You need to be nonexistent to even argue Nep 2; that is the reason why it is there.

Even if we take into account tier 0, we cannot ignore the fact that just on the same page, they describe existence and nonexistence (NEP1) as a duality (opposite of each other). So saying that NEP2 opposes existence as well feels... redundant

Same reason as above, it isn’t there to show how to argue Nep 2 transcendence, but to show that the character in question, with transcendence over being and nonbeing, is nonexistent.

Misunderstandings can still happen tho. It would be better to just change or remove it to avoid misunderstandings.

So while both of these can be valid for NEP2 as well, they are also equally valid for NEP1, so including them only in the NEP2 section is weird

 

[I'm_here_to_teach]

So this wording from the NEP page has been bugging me for a damn while:


I don't get why "opposing existence" would be a property of NEP2 when we take NEP2 as beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence.

Also, on another note, even "preceding" existence wouldn't be NEP2, no? That is still something NEP1 can also show/have.

This has been there ever since I first joined vsbw. I noticed it back then too but I forgot later and then became too lazy :v

I mean wouldn't completely lacking something be its opposite kind of like darkness completely lacking light.

though this would still be classified under nep 1 but it would still be under the logical contridictions of each other.

Nep 2 would completely lacks the dual form of existence as a state outside and lacking the logical contridiction(at least how i take nep 2 outside of true or false as its own thing hence it cant be under nep 1).

I will say this it should probably be updated to sound better cause it does sound very redundant and should be cleared up.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I mean wouldn't completely lacking something be its opposite kind of like darkness completely lacking light.

though this would still be classified under nep 1 but it would still be under the logical contridictions of each other.

Nep 2 would completely lacks the dual form of existence as a state outside and lacking the logical contridiction(at least how i take nep 2 outside of true or false as its own thing hence it cant be under nep 1).

it would lack both existence and nonexistence yeh, if that's what u mean by dual form. And in such a case just saying "oppose existence" at the end of NEP2 is weirder without going further into details.

I will say this it should probably be updated to sound better cause it does sound very redundant and should be cleared up.

Exactly lolz

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Exactly lolz

If you want, you can create a staff thread to remove that or improve it. I don’t see how someone would be against that. And yeah, that part wasn’t adding anything relevant, it would cause more misunderstanding than help, since the point about needing to be nonexistent was already made clear in “character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence” and “characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence.”

 

[I'm_here_to_teach]

it would lack both existence and nonexistence yeh, if that's what u mean by dual form. And in such a case just saying "oppose existence" at the end of NEP2 is weirder without goin

I mean existence would just be in refence to 1 and 0 but obviously thats not clear in the page at all. It should be rephased to opposes dualism of existence or something along those lines

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, i think, you can be NEP2 while still opposing existence, cause NEP2 is either you are

1. NEP and not participated within the framework of existence (1) and nonexistence (0)

2. Being even more nonexistent compare to the framework of nonexistent

Obviously case 1 is out of the question, though in case 2 you can be NEP2 while still exist as opposition to the framework of existence or predecing it, if the verse established such system

Though i can understand the wording is confusing, it was also confused me sometime in the past bruhh

But anyway, better call supergeniuses on this

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Well, i think, you can be NEP2 while still opposing existence, cause NEP2 is either you are

1. NEP and not participated within the framework of existence (1) and nonexistence (0)

2. Being even more nonexistent compare to the framework of nonexistent

Obviously case 1 is out of the question, though in case 2 you can be NEP2 while still exist as opposition to the framework of existence or predecing it, if the verse established such system

Wouldn't it be better to change the wording to "oppose the duality of existence and Non-existence" or etc.
It would be ideal to only describe it in proeprties unique to itself that can also be shown by NEP1, to avoid confusion.

Though i can understand the wording is confusing, it was also confused me sometime in the past bruhh

Lolz

But anyway, better call supergeniuses on this

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

 

[Vietthai96]

Wouldn't it be better to change the wording to "oppose the duality of existence and Non-existence" or etc.

This is still case 1, what i said is about case 2 in which you can be NEP1 while existing as opposition to existence or preceding existence

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Obviously case 1 is out of the question, though in case 2 you can be NEP2 while still exist as opposition to the framework of existence or predecing it, if the verse established such system

1 isn’t out of the question, since it’s impossible to truly transcend the logical negations of existence and nonexistence. Even with a statement like ‘not participating within the framework of existence (1) and nonexistence (0),’ you still participate in them, because you either exist or do not exist. They are dualities that will always apply to all things, making it impossible not to participate in them.

 

[Vietthai96]

1 isn’t out of the question, since it’s impossible to truly transcend the logical negations of existence and nonexistence. Even with a statement like ‘not participating within the framework of existence (1) and nonexistence (0),’ you still participate in them, because you either exist or do not exist. They are dualities that will always apply to all things, making it impossible not to participate in them.

That why NEP2 can grant you Paraconsistent Physiology, cause it is illogical to exist in such a way

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think the way the sentence is formulated makes it quite clear that these things are neither necessary nor sufficient requirements, but merely common correlation.