Natural Weaponry CRT

[Tllmbrg]

Right now the criteria to get it is:
"The ability to use one's own body as a weapon, or manipulate materials from one's own body in order to form weapons and use them in combat."

The bold part is fairly vague and technically allows for stuff like Slappy vomiting is okay to label as that, which I think is rather absurd due to it ending as overlapping with Organic Manipulation so I think this part pf the description should be edited.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Antvasima

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

My apologies for calling for you so much today, but what do you think about this?

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I agree that somebody vomiting should count as Natural Weaponry.

The ambigious wording should probably go.

 

[Tllmbrg]

The ambigious wording should probably go.

How would you word it then

 

[SamanPatou]

It was proposed awhile ago to rename the power Bodily Weaponry, so it would cover even artificial characters who have blades and such on them but aren't "natural".

The bolded part in the op could use a rephrasing, yes.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

stuff like Slappy vomiting

Context for this example; This version of Slappy here instead of having normal blood, has green blood that is "boiling hot". He can shoot this out like a projectile through his nostrils or via "vomiting". Kinda like some versions of the Xenomorph or the Bombardier Beetle.

He doesn't have Natural Weaponry by spewing out his lunch or something stupid like that.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Natural weaponry is typically used for claws and the like, but it is not restricted to such. This definition does allow for Slappy's ability to fall under it. He's just shooting something out of his body to use as a weapon. It'd be like saying an animal that can shoot venom out of it's body like a snake or a Velvet Worm to use as a weapon wouldn't qualify for Natural Weaponry because it isn't swiping with claws or biting with teeth. It's silly.

"Organic Manipulation is the ability to generate, shape and manipulate organic matter, that is the matter that possesses carbon in its chemical structure, also present in all life. Superset of Biological Manipulation, but without being limited to control the properties of living beings, if not of any matter that is composed of carbon, including: oil, ink, sugar, alcohol, food (organic), natural poisons, wax, and more."

Then there is simply overlap. There are real-life snakes that can shoot venom from their mouths, should this not qualify for natural weaponry? What's so bad about there being overlap? It's not uncommon for abilities to overlap in some scenarios, so why is this example specifically bad?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Then there is simply overlap. There are real-life snakes that can shoot venom from their mouths, should this not qualify for natural weaponry? What's so bad about there being overlap? It's not uncommon for abilities to overlap in some scenarios, so why is this example specifically bad?

They'd get it for fangs anyways
Then get poison manipulation for their venom

 

[SamanPatou]

Context for this example; This version of Slappy here instead of having normal blood, has green blood that is "boiling hot". He can shoot this out like a projectile through his nostrils or via "vomiting". Kinda like some versions of the Xenomorph or the Bombardier Beetle.

I believe Blood and Heat Manipulation would fit better than Natural Weaponry

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

I believe Blood and Heat Manipulation would fit better than Natural Weaponry

Why isn't it Natural Weaponry. That is the big question here.

 

[SamanPatou]

Because the concept of the page is strictly related to body parts that can be used as weapons, not everything the body can produce or do, as they are covered by a pletora of other abilities.
Like, even someone's fists can be natural weapons, but we don't give it to all martial artists.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you finished a plan of approach regarding how we should handle this, Saman.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Because the concept of the page is strictly related to body parts that can be used as weapons, not everything the body can produce or do, as they are covered by a pletora of other abilities.
Like, even someone's fists can be natural weapons, but we don't give it to all martial artists.

No it isn't, and it hasn't strictly been for things like that since it was made. Ever since it was created it always had the "manipulate materials from one's body in order to form weapons and use them in combat". Which would include things like acidic blood and whatnot. For **** sakes, Xenomorphs are listed as notable users, the dudes with acidic blood.

As for the second part, I haven't seen any sensible, non-nooby user give a human character NW just because they have arms or teeth. Not to mention it is very well different from say, Xenomorph blood or something more mundane like bear claws.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Also, can we please stop with the "this power overlaps with this other power, therefore it is bad" mentality? You can say that with any power and be just as valid. It isn't a good argument.

 

[SamanPatou]

The Xenomorph is listed as a user because it has claws, a sharp tail and a weaponized tongue.

Using body materials to make weapons from nothing is already Weapon Creation, but even we have other abilities that better cover stuff the your body produces, such as Blood manip, Poison Manip, Bone Manip, heck even elasticity, body control and ten thousand things can be used for those who use their body to, idk, harden the skin and make hits stronger, change size to increase strength, powerful blows that create tornadoes and so on.

Natural Weaponry shouldn't encompass every possible way the body can be used as a weapon.

So have you finished a plan of approach regarding how we should handle this, Saman.

I don't have a precise draft, but my main idea is to rename the page "Bodily Weaponry" and rewrite it to make it clear it encompasses only claws, fangs, beaks, tentacles, tails, shells, spikes, vines, blades and whatever is already on the character body and can be used as a weapon.
Then we let our specific power pages cover additional ways the body can be weaponized, either by producing matter, altering its structure and so on.

 

[SamanPatou]

Also, can we please stop with the "this power overlaps with this other power, therefore it is bad" mentality? You can say that with any power and be just as valid. It isn't a good argument.

It isn't bad, but it's unnecessary, we have specific power pages for a reason.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't have a precise draft, but my main idea is to rename the page "Bodily Weaponry" and rewrite it to make it clear it encompasses only claws, fangs, beaks, tentacles, tails, shells, spikes, vines, blades and whatever is already on the character body and can be used as a weapon.
Then we let our specific power pages cover additional ways the body can be weaponized, either by producing matter, altering its structure and so on.

Thank you. That seems to make sense to me.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

The Xenomorph is listed as a user because it has claws, a sharp tail and a weaponized tongue.

How do you know exactly?

Using body materials to make weapons from nothing is already Weapon Creation, but even we have other abilities that better cover stuff the your body produces, such as Blood manip, Poison Manip, Bone Manip

"Note that this ability is not the same as Weapon Creation, as this is the ability to create weapons from materials naturally formed in the body, rather than from the soul or other types of energy. Furthermore, while this ability is inherently related to Body Control, as well as Hair Manipulation, Bone Manipulation, and other respective abilities, characters with this ability are typically limited to only manipulating their bodies to create weapons."

The page itself makes it clear that it shouldn't be confused with Weapon Creation. The sole difference between this shit and traditional [x] ability is because it comes from the body, otherwise why even have the power unless we are seriously just gonna make it "the claws and teeth" profile.

heck even elasticity, body control and ten thousand things can be used for those who use their body to, idk, harden the skin and make hits stronger, change size to increase strength, powerful blows that create tornadoes and so on.

The first example is an actual example of NW. The last two are just stretching the original definition of the power.

It isn't bad, but it's unnecessary, we have specific power pages for a reason.

No it is bad. It is a broad, lazy argument that you can slap onto any power and be equally valid. We shouldn't expect to cover everything with our pages, and this is all also ignoring how the power works, the mechanics of the power, which is just as important as the effect when determining what power a dude's ability fits under.

 

[Tllmbrg]

For the record I would like to mention that body control as a power has its own issues in where it's basically several powers combined but limited to only affect the user, I'd be in favor of nuking it all together but that not here or there

Anyways I'm with Patou, I just personally prefer to have Natural Weaponry only apply to the examples he brought above as that is well how the power is mostly understood
I don't think there's really anything deep here to argue, I just prefer it that way.
I say we just put it to a vote

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree with that, yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with that, yeah.

With Saman's suggestions?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It was directed at Tllm, but yes, as part of Tllm's post was agreeing with Saman.

So aye.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is good then. I think that we should go with Saman's take that I quoted above.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What Saman suggested seems reasonable.

 

[SamanPatou]

snip

Instead of bringing on the debate about the current semantics on the page (something I could do but I don't deem useful) I believe we should just reword the page to make it more clear and strict in what it is, because it being confusary and overlapping with other things is simply not good.

Just let me say that listing specific powers and broader powers just to indicate the same thing isn't lazy at all, it's efficient and avoids bloating the page with unnecessary stuff.
Because with the same logic you can give energy manipulation/projection to everyone who controls fire, electricity, wind, vibrations, temperature, healing etc... because at the end of the day they all involve controlling some form of energy.
Likewise give mind manip to those who only control one or just a few of the following: memory, emotions, perception (sometimes), mind reading etc...

As I said, we have power pages for specific and popular abilities to better narrow down what characters can do when they only do something specific.


Anyway, I'll start working to restructure the page in order to include only actual bodily weapons such as those I mentioned in my previous post, since there are tons of examples anyway, as the ability doesn't stop at "claws and teeth".

 

[FinePoint]

@SamanPatou How about this?

 

[SamanPatou]

It's perfect, thanks!

 

[Lou_change]

I am sorry for commenting here without asking but giving something blood manipulation for having literal boiling blood and spitting it out please don’t tell me you think a horned lizard should have blood manipulation or the hairy toad which literally breaks its own bones to use as claws should have bone manipulation both I believe fit natural weaponry better. Also why is organic manipulation coming up at all don’t you guys remember this discussion?

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, a supernatural doll spewing out supernatural boiling blood is indeed blood manip, and the hairy toad thing seems more like a desperate measure this poor creature has.
But the thing is, the page is going to be restructed to feature only actual natural weapons, we are clearing this misconception.

 

[Lou_change]

I suppose that makes sense but are we supposed to just ignore that the frogs(I messed up earlier apologize) do it and I don’t think any concern is needed it besides using it for self defense it is believed to use it to climb and swim better and can quickly recover they are even considered retractable because of that another example is the tarantula which is put better than I could here would now just be hair manipulation under that new definition but I guess the slappy thing is fair.

 

[SamanPatou]

The frog's bones seem to be more makeshift weapons rather than actual natural weapons, it can use them for this purpose and survive/recover, but don't seem to be actually meant for that in the first place.

The tarantula's hair would be a combination of Natural Weaponry, as they are physical things on the tarantula itself meant for self-protection, and Poison Manip for being embedded in poison.

The biggest difference between Natural weaponry and bone/blood/hair/whatever manipulation is that the so-called weapons must be weapons in the first place, without the character actively modifying or manipulating them to turn them into weapons.

 

[Lou_change]

survive/recover, but don't seem to be actually meant for that in the first place

I mean it had to evolve to use this technique on didn't just learn to one day and it became common knowledge frogs don't really do that kind of thing and this technique it considered unique in our world no other animal really does this.

The biggest difference between Natural weaponry and bone/blood/hair/whatever manipulation is that the so-called weapons must be weapons in the first place, without the character actively modifying or manipulating them to turn them into weapons

In that case I agree

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we have accepted Saman's suggestions here. Is somebody willing to work on applying them in practice?

 

[SamanPatou]

I mean it had to evolve to use this technique on didn't just learn to one day and it became common knowledge frogs don't really do that kind of thing and this technique it considered unique in our world no other animal really does this.

Are its bones sharp in the first place or does the frog need to actually break them?
If the latter is the right one and they are retractable, I'd say it's body control and regeneration if it heals.

I think that we have accepted Saman's suggestions here. Is somebody willing to work on applying them in practice?

I will look for more images and write a draft once I get the time, probably in a few days.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[SamanPatou]

Here's the draft of the new Bodily Weaponry page, let me know your thoughts.

 

[Antvasima]

It looked good to me, except for that you should never add categories to sandbox pages. It messes up our wiki structure.

I also centered and resized the Mega Man image.

 

[Tllmbrg]

This draft looks good yah

 

[Antvasima]

Here's the draft of the new Bodily Weaponry page, let me know your thoughts.

@Damage3245 @Mr._Bambu

What do you think?