Naruto: Kaguya's Dimensions

[Akiretsu]

Ok so, we all know Kaguya has 5 dimensions:

• Gravity

• Lava

• Ice

• Core

• Acid

But...has there been a consensus here where people agree or disagree about Kaguya creating them or not? Because that would make Prime Kaguya Planet level and By Extention, Madara.

If so, that should be listed in her Keys as well as Madara's.

Kaguya: Planet Level (Created 5 Separate Dimensions in Prime)

Madara: Planet Level (Equal to Prime Kaguya with all 9 Biju)

And before some of you get to talking that non-sense about Madara doesn't equal Prime Kaguya, remember, the Gedou Mazou (Kaguya's Body + Shinju) was nothing more than an empty Shell.

Also:







We know the story. They fought Juubi, Hags became it's Jinchuriki, it's power was broken into 9 pieces and scattered, Six Paths CT was used on it's Empty Body, End of Story.

Logically speaking, if all 9 Biju where to then come back together that would equate to Prime Kaguya's chakra. And before any of you try to pull at "Oh Madara only had 50% Kyuubi" non-sense, remember, Madara's own Chakra is more thn enough to compensate for Half of Kurama's not to mention he also had Hashirama's Sage Chakra.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

The thing is that Kaguya is specifically said to be much stronger than Madara so i don't think he can be powerscaled to her in any case.

She created her dimension with her TSB so no change in the reasoning is necessary.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

Dont forget the sand dimension. Anyways, I dont think there was ever any doubt that Kaguya created those dimensions. I mean there is a dimension that specifically allows her to drain the chakra of the IT victims, I doubt that occurs naturally...

The thing is we know she created those dimensions through her ETSB, so we cant scale her (or Madara's) regular AP from that.

Besides, I dont think I feel comfortable scaling Madara to Kaguya in any way tbh...

 

[Akiretsu]

1.)The thing is that Kaguya is specifically said to be much stronger than Madara so i don't think he can be powerscaled to her in any case.

She created her dimension with her TSB so no change in the reasoning is necessary.

1.)I actually reread through The Hags and Naruto Conversation in Vol. 70 and that's not stated. Hags said Madara was going after her power which is Rinnesharingan, but that's not a representation of chakra levels nor does that negate the fact that The 9 biju are Prime Kaguya's Chakra 100% which Madara has....

2.)I mean yeah, but Madara still should scale. Kaguya had the Chakra to utilize such a technique even in Prime, and thus so should Madara being he has the Chakra of her prime.

If you meant Sasuke's statement well then yeah....BZ just Had Madara absorb Chakra from IT which Naruto noted as being Far More than the Juubi's. Which would make Kaguya "Much Stronger than Madara" and thus by extension, her prime.

 

[Akiretsu]

1.)Dont forget the sand dimension. Anyways, I dont think there was ever any doubt that Kaguya created those dimensions. I mean there is a dimension that specifically allows her to drain the chakra of the IT victims, I doubt that occurs naturally...
2.)The thing is we know she created those dimensions through her ETSB, so we cant scale her (or Madara's) regular AP from that.

3.)Besides, I dont think I feel comfortable scaling Madara to Kaguya in any way tbh...

1.)Well, people have tried to use the fact that the Kamui Dimension was a Natural occurence to say such things. Obito didn't create it, its like it was Borm with his Sharingan.

2.)You actually can. It's chakra control. Read this, its word for word how Chakra control is explained in Naruto. So if Lets Say for ETSB, it requires 45% of Kaguya's Chakra, ok? That ETSB (The ability that erases an creates new Dimensions) is 45% of Kaguya's Chakra, I.E, 45% is enough to use a Planet level technique. Lets say instead, Kaguya loads up her 80 vaccum Palms jutsu with 45% of her Chakra. Would that Jutsu not contain Planet Level AP? Even databook says the Jutsu has the potential to be her strongest offensive Jutsu. That's obviously only possible via Chakra control as the link explains.

3.)Then what would you Call Madara having Prime Kaguya's Chakra (9 Biju)?

 

[HokageMangaVox]

The ETSB is useless in battle, and will not applied to Kaguya's AP since she needs the chakra of everyone under the Infinite Tsukuyumi to make such a thing:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111210761/4603797-8387705034-44632.jpg

 

[Akiretsu]

1.)The ETSB is useless in battle

2.)And will not applied to Kaguya's AP since she needs the chakra of everyone under the Infinite Tsukuyumi to make such a thing:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111210761/4603797-8387705034-44632.jpg

1.)How is it useless in battle? It's the same as a TSB, That is stated. She can use it either way she wants the same as the others can. The ONLY stated difference is the size. Lol.

2.)IIRC, Humanity didn't have Chakra when she first used It thus those Dimensions were created Prior, so no, she doesn't need IT chakra, and the technique likely uses most of her chakra so it's a tactical advantage to form it with IT Chakra instead of hers to preserve her own personal stamina + chakra.

 

[Gallavant]

And before any of you try to pull at "Oh Madara only had 50% Kyuubi" non-sense, remember, Madara's own Chakra is more thn enough to compensate for Half of Kurama's not to mention he also had Hashirama's Sage Chakra.

Fictional destructive capacity can multiply itself in nonlinear ways during combinations so no.

If fiction says A needs B then you can't just assume C will supplement B

 

[Akiretsu]

And before any of you try to pull at "Oh Madara only had 50% Kyuubi" non-sense, remember, Madara's own Chakra is more thn enough to compensate for Half of Kurama's not to mention he also had Hashirama's Sage Chakra.

Fictional destructive capacity can multiply itself in nonlinear ways during combinations so no.

Hey, Gallavant! Missed you at t5 man...but that aside, Ok, but Madara does still have 50% Kurama and All TB. It's not lie having the other Part world really make that much of a difference. Maybe Marginally.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A question if possible (and forgive me if breaking rules because I wish to have a logical answer to why this hasnt been considered officially):

As far as Kaguya and her dimensions go why isnt she considered Star Level? Ive heard ppl have asked that after I did myself and I got slammed in the face by a door basically. No one legitimately answered why it isnt being considered. I dont pay attention to Kaguya material that much so I wouldnt know this, however im not sure why it isnt being brought foward officially considering her dimensions have stars in them so if thats the case why dont we peg her above Planet level and put her in the star tier? Can i please have someone answer this for me?

 

[FinalBattleX01]

@Anime4Life2020

Because apparently Star Level Kaguya is "inconsistent" with the rest of the verse's power and that if she was that strong she could easily destroy Naruto and Sasuke. I think its ridiculous that we are blatantly ignoring something with so much backing buuuuuut it is what it is. So yeah, best not to bring this up again, or at least not for a while since over the past few days we have had a couple of threads about this.

 

[Akiretsu]

A question if possible (and forgive me if breaking rules because I wish to have a logical answer to why this hasnt been considered officially):
As far as Kaguya and her dimensions go why isnt she considered Star Level? Ive heard ppl have asked that after I did myself and I got slammed in the face by a door basically. No one legitimately answered why it isnt being considered. I dont pay attention to Kaguya material that much so I wouldnt know this, however im not sure why it isnt being brought foward officially considering her dimensions have stars in them so if thats the case why dont we peg her above Planet level and put her in the star tier? Can i please have someone answer this for me?

Well, I feel the same way. But Idk why thats the case. The most I can come up with is that he dimension size isn't stated so anything Higher than Planet Level is an Assumption, but I believe she should have a Planet Level, Likely Higher Tag in her Keys.

As Far as I understand, though, The "Stars" in the Dimensions aren't necessarily stars. We see in The Last that they can use Chakra to produce a sphere that can simulate what a star does but isn't necessarily a star. So with that you jump into assumptions again.

Edit: Actually...if that were the case, those "Chakra Stars" would have vanished when Kaguya was no more.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually there is a sun in her Dimension. Sasuke when traveling through her dimensions in Gaiden walks in view of a literal on screen sun, which is a star. Also I dont think its fair that we compare her creating abilities to that of Toneri and the others. they were forced to live in a moon so its natural they would make artifical stars to support life. Kaguya on the other hand created actual dimensions. There's no reason why the stars in her realms would be nothing short of real.

I wont argue this as much since its a recently dropped topic I just dont understand why its being called that. There's plenty of reasons why Kaguya didnt just immediately destroy T7 whether she was that strong or not.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

1.)How is it useless in battle? It's the same as a TSB, That is stated. She can use it either way she wants the same as the others can. The ONLY stated difference is the size. Lol.

2.)IIRC, Humanity didn't have Chakra when she first used It thus those Dimensions were created Prior, so no, she doesn't need IT chakra, and the technique likely uses most of her chakra so it's a tactical advantage to form it with IT Chakra instead of hers to preserve her own personal stamina + chakra.

1.) Difference size, doesn't equaled AP. Otherwise she wouldn't have make it that big, and used a little one.

2.) She didn't create a dimension when she first use IT. Human's having chakra or not is irrevelant to the ETSB used. We never saw how the dimensions were created, you are welcome to provide proof that she didn't need to use IT to create the ETSB in the past. Since it was stated that she needed to in the present after been in her prime no less. It can be argue that she use it on those other dimensions, as Momoshiki did when he use IT in the novels. Which appear in the Boruto Movie, the planet were the last battle takes place.

 

[Akiretsu]

1.)How is it useless in battle? It's the same as a TSB, That is stated. She can use it either way she wants the same as the others can. The ONLY stated difference is the size. Lol.
2.)IIRC, Humanity didn't have Chakra when she first used It thus those Dimensions were created Prior, so no, she doesn't need IT chakra, and the technique likely uses most of her chakra so it's a tactical advantage to form it with IT Chakra instead of hers to preserve her own personal stamina + chakra.

1.) Difference size, doesn't equaled AP. Otherwise she wouldn't have make it that big, and used a little one.

2.) She didn't create a dimension when she first use IT. Human's having chakra or not is irrevelant to the ETSB used. We never saw how the dimensions were created, you are welcome to provide proof that she didn't need to use IT to create the ETSB in the past. Since it was stated that she needed to in the present after been in her prime no less. It can be argue that she use it on those other dimensions, as Momoshiki did when he use IT in the novels. Which appear in the Boruto Movie, the planet were the last battle takes place.

1.)I didn't say the difference in size equal AP. The ETSB is stated to be the same as Naruto/Madara's/Obito's with the only difference being it's size which constantly expands and this is ******* obvious, so i didn't think i had to say it but the other difference is the power contained within. The small Ones Contain the power to obliterate forests and the ETSB the power to obliterate the world/Dimension.

2.)Vol. 71 - Chapter 681, Zetsu States that Kaguya was attepmting to take back her chakra that had been dispersed to Hags and Hamura, Afterwords, Had Indra and Ashura and had created Ninshu around that point in time. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO my good sir, Hokagemangvox, Kaguya's Dimensions were created LONG before Chakra was disperesed by Hags. so yeah...my scenario is correct. Kaguya has no ther techniques for creating Dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the power needed to create a full-sized star would in fact be extremely inconsistent with Kaguya's othervise displayed power level.

However, I suppose that listing it as a separate "Possibly 4-C via hax that is unusable for combat purposes" statistic might be an idea, if the rest of the staff would agree.

That said, are we absolutely certain that the star was not present in that pocket universe previously, and she simply accessed the planets situated there? It seemed to be left very unclear.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

That said, are we absolutely certain that the star was not present in that pocket universe previously, and she simply accessed the planets situated there? It seemed to be left very unclear.

Its safe to say that she created them. I mean there is a dimension that only exists to allow Kaguya (in particular) to absorb the chakra of the IT victims. I highly doubt that occurs naturally so Occam's Razor ftw...

Plus there's the fact that Zetsu said that she was creating a new "dimension", as opposed to "planet" or anything else, when she pulled out her ETSB.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will highlight this for more input.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

...Im a bit lost as to what we're debating here... Are we arguing whats in the OP or Star Level Kaguya? Cuz we only started the Star Level discussion to answer Anime4Life2020's question...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Much like Bleach, the size of the dimensions / worlds in Naruto are very inconsistent and unclear, and assuming they are any larger than Planet level without clear evidence would be very contradictory with feats. We have no idea how large Kaguya's dimensions are, so her current Stats should be fine.

 

[Antvasima]

It is the Star level hax for Kaguya part that I need help to evaluate. However, it would have to be kept separate from her general attack potency, for consistency's sake.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

@Matthew Schroeder

Im just gonna point out that we have evidence that her dimensions contain at least one planet, one moon, one star and outer space. So if we were gonna upgrade (not saying we are) Star would be the max we could reasonably say, but keeping it at Planet is equally unreasonable.

@Antvasima

Wouldnt it be better to make a separate thread about this then? Cuz I feel bad we've derailed the OP's original thread... I dont get why we dont just use it specifically for her ETSB. I mean it scales to literally nothing else (including her other attacks) and can be assumed to be the undisputed God Tiers full power... I really dont see where the inconsistency lies...

 

[Blade0886]

The OP seems to have missed the entire part where Madara was "converted" per say, into Kaguya. Black Zetsu absorbed chakra from the victims of the Infinite Tsukuyomi technique, and poured it into Madara's body. Madara himself was unable to handle this much chakra, hence why he started to blow like a balloon. But Kaguya herself manipulates that quantity of chakra just fine. So there is no way that Madara=Kaguya.

 

[Ragazz]

However, I suppose that listing it as a separate "Possibly 4-C via hax that is unusable for combat purposes" - it puts a time limiter on the enemy - win within the time limit or die, and yet its unusable for combat?

 

[Damico22]

So will Kaguya be upgraded to possibly star level

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Kaguya's Dimensions were created LONG before Chakra was disperesed by Hags. so yeah...my scenario is correct. Kaguya has no ther techniques for creating Dimensions.

1) Glad you understood.

2) We never saw how the dimensions were created, you are welcome to provide evidence that she didn't need to use IT to create the ETSB in the past. Because it was stated both in the manga and Fourth databook page 293, that she needed to use the chakra from the people under IT, to make the ETSB. Kaguya was not the first Alien with chakra, but was the first on Earth. Also, if she hadn't eaten the fruit until the human conflict, how was she able to make the dimensions with no Yin and Yang before the first IT like you implied above. Inconsistent. Or she did the same thing Momoshiki did, found a dimension use IT to kill everyone and took over the dimension as her own. Claiming that she created it is speculation, and inconsistent with the story. She did the same thing Momoshiki did in the novel, my good, Lady, Akiretsu. And even then, that is also inconsistent.

 

[Antvasima]

@FinalBattleX01

Yes. You are correct. It was a bad idea of me to use this thread for that purpose.

I will create a new thread instead.

 

[Akiretsu]

Madara would scale to Kaguya's ETSB though....Like, I just proved it. The ETSB is no different then any other Jutsu. Prime Kaguya created her dimensions, that would make Madara Her equal because he nearly has the full chakra of Prime Kaguya.

You guys not accepting makes no sense when you scale Naruto and Sasuke's other stats to SPCT.

http://www.naruto2.com/information/chakra_guide/Naruto-ChakraControlling.aspx

Saying she or Madara shouldn't scale due to contradiction of feats is one thing. Saying She wouldn't scale at all via AP is flatt out wrong. Ebisu Explains How jutsu and Chakra control Work (Check the Link).

ETSB takes a certain amount of Chakra to use. Kaguya's Stamina (The Key to all other Physical Stats) Is depleted by the amount of chakra it takes. So like I explained above, Say ETSB requires 45% of Kaguya's Chakra, that's the ability to create and destroy dimensions and create celestial Objects like Stars and Planets...What you guys are saying by saying this doesn't scale to Kaguya is "Naruto characters can produce Obsured feats without needing the energy that actually produces said feats".

I guess by that Logic, Naruto and Sasuke are ONLY Moon Level+ With SPCT, it doesn't scale to Durability/AP or anything else and tehre is much more. DOES IT MAKE SENSE FOR SOMEONE TO HAVE THE CHAKRA TO USE THESE TYPE OF TECHNIQUES YET NOT HAVE IT SCALED TO OTHER STATS VIA CHAKRA CONTROL?

It's been shown! It's been proven in Naruto! For god sakes the most recent example that basically throws this mechanic in your face is THE LAST!!!

If Naruto uses 25% of his Chakra on a Biju Bomb, Would, lets say a Rasengan, Not be equal to that same Biju Bomb VIA AP if he fueled it with 25% of his chakra?

If Sasuke uses 30% of his Chakra to Create PS, could he not use 30% of his Chakra to vitalize his body to increase his strength or Durability or speed (Not quantifiable but thats's how it works), or all at once?

Come on now...I can understand if it was like a Jutsu that really can't be scaled to like Genjutsu's Kirin, etc...but Kaguya can use ETSB out of her own Chakra. The same as Chibaku Tensei is used out of their own Chakra....Why wouldn' she scale baring the contradiction of other feats?

 

[Akiretsu]

Also. @Antvasima

It would still be usable in Battle. Kaguya can control her dimensions. What's to say she can't make her own stars go Supernova or Crash the planet into it? And it's not like it's not possible.

Tenseigan could control the orbit of the Moon equite Easily how ever it wanted.

 

[FinalBattleX01]

@Akiretsu

There was a thread about the Star Level Kaguya stuff a couple of hours ago, it didnt go through. Look at the new note on her page for clarification.

 

[Akiretsu]

Ok...so we're still operating with the ETSB being Planet level then, right?

So back to the point i'm trying to make with this thread. Kaguya's and other stats should be scaled to ETSB and other stats similarly how Naruto and Sasuke's Are scaled from SPCT.

 

[Akiretsu]

The OP seems to have missed the entire part where Madara was "converted" per say, into Kaguya. Black Zetsu absorbed chakra from the victims of the Infinite Tsukuyomi technique, and poured it into Madara's body. Madara himself was unable to handle this much chakra, hence why he started to blow like a balloon. But Kaguya herself manipulates that quantity of chakra just fine. So there is no way that Madara=Kaguya.

I mentioned that. And for whatever reason Kaguya can manipulate that amount no problem, That doesn't negate the fact tht the the 9 Biju which Madara has = Prime Kaguya's Chakra level.

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew Schroeder mentioned that it was an outlier (compared to her general displayed destructive capacity, having her arm severed by Naruto, and being defeated by a Low 5-B attack).

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Is inconsistent with both, the storyline included. Akiretsu claims that she created the dimensions before anyone had chakra on Earth, but that is impossible since she gain the power after eating the fruit on Earth. You could argue that she created them after, but its still stated that she needed the chakra from everyone under IT in both manga, and databook. (Fourth databook page 293) to create a ETSB, and since we don't know how the dimensions were created it can be argue that she did the same thing Momoshiki did when he claim a stolen dimension for his own.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

In any case, this discussion seems to go in circles. Perhaps it would be best if I closed it?

 

[Akiretsu]

1.)Is inconsistent with both, the storyline included.

How is that?

2.)Akiretsu claims that she created the dimensions before anyone had chakra on Earth, but that is impossible since she gain the power after eating the fruit on Earth.
I said before Hags spreaded Chakra and that happened AFTER she ws already sealed.

3.)You could argue that she created them after, but its still stated that she needed the chakra from everyone under IT in both manga, and databook. (Fourth databook page 293) to create a ETSB.
Yeah and that was for this time around and my scenario easily backs that up because the dimensions were there before Hags spreaded chakra which means SHE DIDN"T NEED THE CHAKRA IN THE FIRST PLACE. Like I said, If she used ETSB out of her own Chakra it would have been much much easier to seal her considering her stats would be likle below that of Naruto and Sasuke's due to the reduction of Stamina!

4.)And since we don't know how the dimensions were created it can be argue that she did the same thing Momoshiki did when he claim a stolen dimension for his own.
That makes no sense. We know she can create Dimensions Via ETSB. Unless you want to say Kaguya is a Reality Warper who can control the reality of ANY dimension as she pleases, then she created those Dimensions.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Momoshiki, Toneri , etc... All belong to her clan yet no one can create a TSB without eating the fruit. She can't have made a ETSB without having the powers. Maybe you can try this inconsistency in Comic_Vine they will sure say, Yes without thinking about it. We also don't have evidence that is a 100% real star, as you know the moon core had an artificial sun created by her race. This thread is pointless, unless you have prove it will go on in circles.

 

[Antvasima]

Calm down. We have already decided that Kaguya will not get an upgrade in the other discussion earlier today. This is starting to get out of hand, so I will close the thread.