My Hero Academia: Souls and Vestiges

[Mazdoesstuff]

So in MHA, I took a reread and found more interesting information regarding the vestiges and their role within the story. Although the vestige world isn’t necessarily touched upon, we still obtain new information, especially with the recent chapters of MHA, with All For One getting attacked in the vestige world.

One thing that I’d like to correct is that we only consider manipulating vestiges or controlling via a vestige as Mind Manipulation, and while I don’t disagree with that being an ability counted with it, I think describing it as solely that is disingenuous and limiting. First off, we must define what a soul is, which is, according to the dictionary:

“the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal”

This accurately fits the vestiges because not only do they resemble the humans and have willpower, Deku states that the long-dead OFA predecessors are alive within the vestige world.

Who will gain new abilities from this?

Deku will gain Resistance to Soul Manipulation due to him being able to resist Shigaraki’s attempt at stealing his quirk

Shigaraki will get Soul Manipulation from being able to steal Deku’s quirk AND vestige via AFO, and Resistance to Soul Manipulation for being able to resist AFO’s influence in the vestige world

All For One will get Soul Manipulation for obvious reasons, as he is literally able to devour vestiges

Star and Stripe will get Limited Soul Manipulation for her being able to manipulate her own vestige, so that it would destroy other vestiges in the vestige world even after her death

Let me know your thoughts on these changes.

 

[Damage3245]

Deku will gain Resistance to Soul Manipulation due to him being able to resist Shigaraki’s attempt at stealing his quirk

This doesn't make sense to me. Shigaraki was attempting to steal his Quirk, not his soul.

Vestiges aren't the "souls" of Quirk-holders in the spiritual sense. More like a copy of them; hence why All For One can give his Quirk away and not really be impacted by it. It's not him, just an echo of him.

Shigaraki and All For One shouldn't get Soul Manipulation either. There being a vestige of the person they've stolen the ability from doesn't mean they're manipulating those people's souls and there's no reason to think they could manipulate the souls of people who don't have Quirks either.

 

[Therefir]

Has it ever been confirmed that souls really exist in MHA? Because even if they are not just vestiges, it doesn't mean that they are the real souls of users who have died, or if souls even exist here.

All Might being in the world of vestiges contradicts that they are the real souls of the users, but at the same time All Might has a weird connection to his vestige, making the whole thing more mystical than it should be.

 

[Therefir]

I was planning to create a CRT to delete Deku's Multiple Selves Type 2 (Multiple Souls), but I think we can discuss that here.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Has it ever been confirmed that souls really exist in MHA? Because even if they are not just vestiges, it doesn't mean that they are the real souls of users who have died, or if souls even exist here.

Rody’s quirk is stated to be a soul link between him and his bird

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

All Might being in the world of vestiges contradicts that they are the real souls of the users, but at the same time All Might has a weird connection to his vestige, making the whole thing more mystical than it should be

All Might hasn’t really shown any signs of being a sentient consciousness within the vestige world. His vestige exists there, but it isn’t active, which is likely because he’s still alive

 

[Therefir]

Damage3245 is right about AFO, it's not like he could manipulate the "souls" or "vestiges" of the Quirkless, because they can't/don't have any in the first place.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Damage3245 is right about AFO, it's not like he could manipulate the "souls" or "vestiges" of the Quirkless, because they can't/don't have any.

That doesn’t debunk his ability being Soul Manipulation, it would just need to be made Limited, or it would need to be specified that he can only do it to people with an ability?

 

[Therefir]

Nowhere is it implied that the vestiges are souls, you would be implying that the people AFO stole their Quirks are soulless now.

All Might hasn’t really shown any signs of being a sentient consciousness within the vestige world. His vestige exists there, but it isn’t active, which is likely because he’s still alive

The vestige of Star was perfectly conscious while her true self was still decaying.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Souls do actually exist in some way via Rody’s quirk being a literal soul projection. So they are real.

But that doesn’t mean much since no one really interacts with the souls that much.

Only way this results in anything is if we consider vestige copies of souls to be comparable to normal souls, but even then AFO can only affect them one way and only to a tiny piece of the overall soul. He can take your quirk and you as a person will be fine, as shown with Ragdoll, so the piece of soul he takes isn’t really anything noteworthy.

Only person really interacting with souls would be Star when she commands New Order to rebel and she actually destroys the vestiges while tearing into AFO/Shigaraki. But again, these are vestiges, not the whole thing.

So while there might be traces of soul manipulation present, the scale is ridiculously miniscule since it’s limited to tiny pieces of the soul that contain the “individuality,” rather than memory, personality, life, emotion, etc. which is present in Rody’s quirk. So no, no soul manipulation for anyone.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Essentially, AFO is just snagging the extra bit of Soul that results from having a quirk rather than the individual’s soul in its entirety. So it’s ridiculously limited to a meaningless extent for a fight either offensively or defensively, unless he later in the manga actually makes the threat of killing someone by taking their entire self rather than just their quirk.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Can anyone somehow provide a debunk for how the OFA vestiges are perfectly conscious and sentient being and alive within the vestige world, even far after their death

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I've actually been gathering up scans on this subject for a rework of All For One's page.
The only highlights that matter include:

• According to Yoichi, one's "essence" — their consciousness — is hardwired into their Quirk Factor in the form of a "shade"
• All For One explains to Izuku and Nana that a person's consciousness lingers behind in their Quirk Factor and described himself and his brother as being able to "meddle with Quirks"
• All For One's will and consciousness within his Quirk is powerful enough to briefly overpower Tomura's own will and speak through his body
• His phantom consciousness is powerful enough to overpower Tomura's own will and completely commandeer his body in what he describes as a "symbiotic relationship"

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Can anyone somehow provide a debunk for how the OFA vestiges are perfectly conscious and sentient being and alive within the vestige world, even far after their death

Quirks are echoes of the soul. The actual people are dead and gone, but quirks are basically mini-copies that can be interacted with in ways that the entire soul cannot be.

AFO can take a vestige/mini-soul, he can’t take an entire soul. So against any other verse, this ability is meaningless

 

[Therefir]

I still think they are nothing more than copies with their experiences, the real users and their souls are long gone.

 

[Damage3245]

Quirks are echoes of the soul. The actual people are dead and gone, but quirks are basically mini-copies that can be interacted with in ways that the entire soul cannot be.

AFO can take a vestige/mini-soul, he can’t take an entire soul. So against any other verse, this ability is meaningless

I agree with this.

Vestiges aren't souls. Vestiges are vestiges.

There's no direct implication of Soul Manipulation unless we really stretch the definition.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I still think they are nothing more than copies with their experiences, the real users and their souls are long gone.

This basically.

The person is gone, their quirk remains.

Quirks are “individuality,” they represent the person in their entirety.

So Quirks are essentially just mini-souls, copies, of the larger soul they belong to.

AFO can only interact with that mini-soul, not the bigger soul.

 

[Therefir]

I think the word you are looking for is most likely "conscience" rather than mini-soul.

In real life we haven't confirmed that souls exist, but we do have consciousness, which is what I think the vestiges are.

I was planning to create a CRT to delete Deku's Multiple Selves Type 2 (Multiple Souls), but I think we can discuss that here.

That being said, I don't think Deku should have Multiple Selves Type 2, Type 1 already covers what the vestiges are.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

That being said, I don't think Deku should have Multiple Selves Type 2, Type 1 already covers what the vestiges are.

I’m indifferent to any changes regarding Multiple Selves, mainly because it’s a useless ability for the most part

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I think the word you are looking for is most likely "conscience" rather than mini-soul.

That being said, I don't think Deku should have Multiple Selves Type 2, Type 1 already covers what the vestiges are.

I think mini-soul/copy fits better since the quirks are exactly that. They’re just small versions of the overall soul that exist in a specific way.

They can learn, grow, develop, teach and share everything that he alive person did, but aren’t actually them beyond being a Quirk represented in a mental space.

So “conscience” I feel downplays them a bit since it doesn’t take into account just how autonomous they are, even to the point of being able to overwhelm a hosts vestige to take control of the body.

Best words for them are obviously “vestige” and “echo” but it was getting repetitive.

 

[Therefir]

You may be right, the vestiges have proven to be in some sense spiritual/mystical, with the first user knowing something is going on with AFO despite being hundreds of miles away.

I guess Multiple Selves Type 2 can stay for now, until further information is revealed.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Oh my, I just came across something in my re-read of the war arc.

In chapter 304, when Deku is talking to the vestiges, they are talking about the mechanics of OFA.

As stated by the First, “Those fragments of consciousness came about with the quirk factors of the second through seventh successors. THAT is what One For All contains.”

Basically what we all know, quirk factors are their own, separate thing from the main body/soul.

But then he says this: “Yagi is the sole exception. Only he imbued One For All with a true piece of his consciousness.”

All Might doesn’t have a Quirk, so his vestige isn’t actually a vestige at all. He doesn’t have the Quirk FOR there to be a vestige.

All Might’s LITERAL SOUL is in One For All. It TOOK part of his soul from him as it stayed with him to make a vestige. So actual Soul Manipulation eventually might not be off the table if OFA can do that.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

And actually, this makes a lot of sense. OFA kills people by burning up their life force. They cannot handle more than one quirk for long periods of time. This is reflected with cracks on the body and eventually death of old age.

But look at this from a SOUL perspective. One For All’s main purpose, it’s function, is FITTING into its new body. It wants to BECOME part of its host, as it does with Deku and All Might. It wants to take the soul of the host and make them a vestige, to become their quirk.

But what if you already have a quirk? Your soul is already split, a piece of it is contained within your quirk factor. Your cup is already full.

But One For All doesn’t recognize that. All it knows is that it wants to be YOUR quirk. So it takes from your soul again. And people can’t handle that, so their life force is burnt away.

OFA directly lowers your life span by removing pieces of your soul, thinking you need another vestige, when you already have one. That’s actual soul manipulation being done on the host. It’s like a parasite trying to help you, but killing you if you don’t fit all the qualifications.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

i love how you address two quotes that mention the "consciousness" and continue to reference the soul.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

i love how you address two quotes that mention the "consciousness" and continue to reference the soul.

The “consciousness” being referenced is literally just the soul. The piece of “soul” that is kept in the quirk factor. Then saying consciousness is just dancing around what they really are, which are souls/echoes of souls. The biological functions of quirks are tied to the spiritual functions as well, so they don’t have to explicitly say soul for us to know what’s going on.

And what is a soul but consciousness? Isn’t that one of the leading factos of souls, that they contain your consciousness and is why you’re conscious in the first place? Cause now we’re getting into a debate on how souls operate in MHA in the first place.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The “consciousness” being referenced is literally just the soul.
...
Then saying consciousness is just dancing around what they really are, which are souls/echoes of souls.

The kanji used not only to describe the "consciousnesses" within One For All but also the "raw spirits" Shigaraki spoke of is 意識, "isshiki", in direct reference to the mind. Moreover, All For One explains to Izuku and Nana that all Quirks contain the consciousness of their former owners, comparing Quirks to cells that house their own memories in this regard, and references a medical phenomenon in which patients of organ transplants are reported to experience shifts in emotions and tastes, a real world phenomenon that links the body and the brain.

OFA directly lowers your life span by removing pieces of your soul

Completely unsubstantiated.

OFA kills people by burning up their life force. They cannot handle more than one quirk for long periods of time. This is reflected with cracks on the body and eventually death of old age.

The reason One For All shortens its already powerful users' life spans is because their vessel is already taken up by a pre-existing Quirk, and adding numerous more Quirks would cause this vessel to shatter. The concept of a "vessel" is directly related to power, rather than something as bogus as the vessel being full of one's soul or whatnot. One For All, evidently, places a heavy burden on the body of its users with its power, potentially even destroying their bodies if they aren't properly trained, and Shinomori unwittingly drove himself to his death by overfilling his vessel by amassing strength non-stop for eighteen years. He already possessed a Quirk, Danger Sense, and adding two other physical mutations on top of the accompanying Quirk Factors only spelt doom for his body; furthermore, One For All strengthens the Quirks of its many users exponentially, meaning his already completely full and calm vessel suddenly experienced a skyrocket in liquid volume. That is the very reason why strong, Quirkless individuals are the only ones capable of perfecting One For All and drawing out its full potential; a vessel born without a Quirk is effectively empty, meaning One For All can comfortably shape itself around the user, rather than attempting to force itself into the user's body alongside their original Quirk.

Basically what we all know, quirk factors are their own, separate thing from the main body/soul.

No- no, Quirk Factors are part of the body, alongside their parent Quirk.

But what if you already have a quirk? Your soul is already split, a piece of it is contained within your quirk factor. Your cup is already full.

Why would removing a part of one's person fill up their cup even more?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

also...