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Muzan Kibutsuji vs Chrollo Lucilfer

LordUrien935

LordUrien935

1,969
323
Soon as I saw that Muzan was 8-A I had to make this. It's too damn thematic- dark, charming leaders who both command a group with exactly 12 members each? Chrollo has preparation and has all the abiliites ever showcased in the entire series, including the ones from Shalnark and Kortopi. Both have full knowledge of each other, and Chrollo has written his fortune out before the fight.

Chrollo's abilities: Unnamed Teleportation attack, Indoor Fish, Fun Fun Cloth, Lovely Ghostwriter, Black Voice, Sun and Moon, Double Face, Order Stamp, Gallery Fake, Convert Hands.

Speed is equalized.

Battle takes place in a crowded park.

Victory via incap or death.

UncomfortablePessimisticCougar-size restricted
Muzan manga


Chrollo Lucilfer: 7 (EmperorRorepme, Torein, Ionliosite, Strawboi, SpookyShadow, ChosenOrDeath, Tonygameman)

Muzan Kibutsuji:

Inconclusive:
 
Chrollo with preparation is scary force. In a crowded park he can turn those people into bombs which can harm 8-As. If he had prep he could've presumably dome this already. Muzan does have ranged attacks however I doubt he could attack omnidirectional.

Chrollo is undoubtedly the better hand to hand combatant and if he gets Black Voice off it's pretty much game over.

Indoor Fish depends on the setting.

He can make fake clones of himself to fool Muzan too.

I'd give this to Chrollo. Muzan's abilities are still lethal but I doubt he'll be able to give his blood to Chrollo. Hisoka only got a few blows the entire fight of I'm recalling correctly.
 
Don't see a calc so baseline probably?

Also yeah I forgot that Indoor Fish can only be used in a closed environment.
 
HxH 8-A is 145 tons of TNT, that's 2.07 times higher than Kimetsu 8-B+ calculation. That's not enough to stomp, so the battle is fair I think?

Muzan should get this due his hax, I remember someone talking about summon, where he can summon some Upper moons. I didn't read anythint from 120 and above so I don't know if this is true
 
Muzan is just baseline 8-A since he's way stronger than Kokushibo who is way stronger than Doma who is 70.1 Tons while being weakened by poison.
 
So upscales from 8-B+, baseline I guess

I can see Muzan being at least 2 times stronger than Doma, it's pure logic, Hashira are on that level and few of them had troubles with Muzan while individually they can equally fight with Kizuki

If Chrollo's AP is one shot worthy then regen saves Muzan
 
Muzan was simultaneously taking on four pillars. Two of which are comparable to Doma or Kokushibo and two other pillars comparable to Akaza at the same time and winning while having a nonchalant expression on his face.

Muzan also technically one shots via his blood. One cut and Chrollo's cell would rupture and he would turn into a mush of flesh.
 
Muzan wins.

Chrollo is not capable of ensuring a win against Hisoka except by using the largest number of abilities he ever had to use at one time, and he made sure to avoid direct combat at all costs. The problem is that Chrollo can't avoid direct combat here.

Not only is Muzan immortal with Mid-High regen, but one scratch from Muzan's AoE tentacles is enough to kill Chrollo, and Muzan can sense Chrollo's presence to boot so there is not much room for trickery. Muzan can also omnidirectionally split his upper body into 1800 pieces of flesh in order to regenerate elsewhere if he needs to.
 
You're forgetting one thing. He used the largest number of abilities to ensure a 100% victory which means literally 0% chance of Hisoka winning the fight. That was why he used that quantity of abilities.

As far as this fight goes there's literally no reason why Chrollo cannot avoid hand to hand combat. First of all he already knows about the blood. Second one scratch isn't enough to kill Chrollo Muzan needs to get his blood into him. Also if Chrollo can hide from Hisoka who's senses can find people who use perfect Zetsu he can definitely hide from Muzan who can only sense people's accurate location if they have his blood.

Mid High Regenerationn doesn't matter. It's countered by Shalnarks ability so even in hand to hand combat in which Chrollo is superior he can easy either put Muzan in the fun fun cloth and incapacitate him by shrinking his size or put Shalnarks Black Voice on him which grants him full control over Muzan.

Chrollo can trick Muzan by making various clones of himself. Have Muzan pursue them and then catch him off guard.

He won't have a chance to split his body up because he's lost control over his body or is sealed in a cloth and that doesn't matter either way it only delays the inevitable.
 
Having to run around searching for abilities and borrowing abilities from the Troupe means that Chrollo is unable to guarantee a win through direct combat against Hisoka, because he always tries to minimize the number of abilities needed.

Chrollo has no way to hide against the tentacle barrage by using meat shields as a distraction (if he even has time to make meat shields).

Muzan already demonstrated the ability to inject his blood by scratching with his tentacle. So yes, getting one scratch from the AoE spam is all it takes to win. This is enough to make Muzan more likely to win.

Gon before learning Nen used instinctive Zetsu to hide from Hisoka and Hisoka doesn't have detection feats, and Zetsu means that Chrollo can't use Nen or Hatsu abilities so he hid from Hisoka without it. Muzan demonstrated the ability to sense the presence of humans (along with their killing intent) without needing to inject any blood. (note that whoever got close were carrying presence concealment spells)

Muzan is over a thousand years old, so he has more experience and skill. If Chrollo could use Black Voice or Fun Fun Cloth against Hisoka without a serious risk of losing then he would, but he didn't because *he needs to get close* which would put him in Hisoka's attack range, and Muzan's attack range is significantly larger. Muzan could overwrite and overpower mind control on one of his demons, but Shalnark could not do so against the gamee controller ant, so Muzan can potentially resist Black Voice as well.

As I said, unlike Hisoka, Muzan can easily dispose of any meat shield from long range with AoE, piercing through the shields straight to Chrollo, so it is not like Chrollo would get the opportunity to make copies while getting spammed with one-shot AoE attacks. Muzan doesn't like to leave witnesses so he wouldn't care about collateral damage if he is fighting to kill.
 
He did that to ensure his 100% victory. To defeat Hisoka in the best way possible without giving him chance to engage in the thing he is best at. Which is hand to hand combat. Without ensuring the 100% victory Hisoka would have a chance to win whether large or small which is what he didn't want. He also didn't need to use Black Voice because he already had a strategy on which Hisoka wouldn't get the chance to do anything. He engaged Hisoka in hand to hand at the start of their fight and damaged him. Bear in mind although he did have a huge advantage because of preparation, he informed Hisoka of his abilities at the start basically showing his hand for almost every card he had. There were various points where he could've use Black Voice and won for example here and Hisoka even acknowledged that difficulty. So it's not like Chrollo was scared he just stuck to his strategy. All the puppets Chrollo uses activate to nen also making them way more durable and they can tank attacks from Hisoka and keep up with him.

He can change the appearance of people into himself and it even fooled Hisoka who can sense the nen and strength of others. So it would fool Muzan. Then he can catch him off guard. He has time because of preparation. Also Muzan's whip can easily be dodged. He's dealt with long ranged techniques like Dragon Lance and he was able to dodge it easily until he lost concerntration due to Silva. He can also get through the whip then place Black Voice.

When has Muzan done that? He had to manually place the blood after scratching the opponent. The blood is a win condition but Chrollo already knows about it so I doubt he's going to let the whip touch him.

Hisoka was able to sense Kalluto with his senses alone although he was using a perfect Zetsu. Good nen users can roughly detect those around them without use of nen even if they use Zetsu seen with the Troupe. Muzan can sense Chrollo but not if he uses Zetsu or makes clones identical to himself. I don't remember presence concealment but how good was it?

He's lived longer but he hasn't shown greater skill then Chrollo. He didn't do that because he wanted a 100% victory. Doing that would take a percentage away from that and give Hisoka a chance which he absolutely didn't want. Muzan fully controls all his demons in every sense. So that isn't a feat.

Those clones were able to evade Hisoka for a time who also can catch them with long ranged nen. So they can do the same to Muzan. He has preparation so he can create clones.

Also his whip isn't AoE he just waves them around very quickly against people he's faster then. Here they're equal speed so Chrollo can react and dodge the whips easily. He can also blow them away with Ren or Hatsu to project energy which pushes them away.

Muzan's only win condition is to put blood in Chrollo's wounds. Whilst Chrollo can seal him. Control him. And he's more likely to do this and avoid the whip due to clones and explosives which can act as diversions. Zetsu to hide from Muzan if needed which worked against Hisoka who can see through other Zetsu with nen use. There's also teleportation he can use to also catch Muzan off guard or get him in good positions.

Also even if he dispells his Hatsu through Zetsu use the bookmark still functions so he can still use 2 abilities. Also it's unlikely he can hide from Hisoka without using Zetsu because of his mass of nen that could be sensed.
 
Getting hit by the antenna is counterable by Hisoka (especially that Chrollo needs to take his phones from his pocket to use it), as shown by him reacting to the punch before Chrollo switched to a kick. It is as much of a risk to Chrollo as it is for Hisoka when Chrollo would reveal he can use more than two abilities and that the puppets are a distraction. Chrollo informed Hisoka of his abilities to trick him into thinking he can't create new puppets or use other abilities as long as there are puppets active (He hid the fact that Gallery Fake + Order Stamp will indefinitely work if the puppets are marked with Sun & Moon), this ended up wasting Hisoka's time and working in Chrollo's advantage not Hisoka's.

For the sake of argument, if Chrollo is allowed to make puppets without people panicking and revealing his position, while Hisoka could not knock the puppets out with his punches/kicks, It would be easy for Muza to slice them apart with his longer range natural weaponry. A park is a lot less crowded than an arena, and unlike an arena there is no reason for an audience to stick around, and the process to create puppets is not conspicuous within a park. The whip didn't get cut by the Nichirin swords (which can ignore demon durability to some extent), so the antennas wouldn't stick on them.

In his first appearance, Muzan caused someone to transform into a demon with a casual scratch. (Major Spoilers for those not caught up with the manga) A single scratch from Muzan's whip is enough to cause death. Note that people who use Breathing, especially those with the Demon Slayer Mark, can resist demon blood and would get affected by Muzan's blood slower, but it would be instant death for Chrollo.

The presence concealment is from Yoshiro's talismans, which both hides presence makes objects invisible to the senses (including animals and buildings). Carrying multiple talismans imply that simply having one is not enough to hide from Muzan, but Muzan could still detect them once they got close enough. While sensing Kalluto through perfect Zetsu is a pretty good feat, Hisoka couldn't sense Gon while bloodlusted/excited, but this can explained by Hisoka being a bad sensor while bloodlusted or excited like he was in his long-awaited fight against Chrollo.

Whips can count as an AoE (AoEs don't need to be an omnidirectional blast), so he can destroy multiple puppets and even potentially injure Chrollo with one swipe. Chrollo doesn't have Ren feats nor did he display an energy projection Hatsu, and he is a Specialist so his Aura type has the weakest Enhancement. How long can Chrollo dodge multiple whips and tentacles coming at him once spotted? He is eventually bound to get scratched. A clone assumes the crowd haven't already run away and they come with major disadvantages: They requires using one of Black Voice's two antennas so Chrollo can only create two clones at the same time, and Chrollo can't create new puppets or even use more abilities (like Fun Fun Cloth, Teleportation) while using Black Voice + Convert Hands to create a clone, and he would need to retrieve the antennas to use them again.

You mentioned different ways Chrollo can stall the fight. But the clones can't beat Muzan nor do any damage Muzan won't regenerate from almost instantaneously. Chrollo needs to get close with Black Voice or Fun Fun Cloth if he hopes to win, and if he gets close he is likely to get bisected or scratched. So Muzan holds the advantage.
 
If the antenna go in then the victim is forced to be immobile, waiting instructions. Which is why the fight would be over if it went in. Not sure how Hisoka reacting to Chrollo shows he can counter it in any fashion. If Chrollo intended the antenna to go in at that point it would've been game over. He just stuck to his overarching strategy which he was 100% guarenteed to win.

Chrollo is too fast for normal people to see him anyway. Those links don't work but they can still act as bombs and clones to distract Muzan from the actual Chrollo. The swords don't ignore durability they just nullify Regenerationn with decapitation.

I think ******** is down because those links still don't work but I remember that scene. So it does work with a deep enough scratches to put blood into. However Chrollo with prior knowledge still wouldn't allow the whip to touch him at all. In regards to Zetsu, there's no indication Hisoka cannot sense whilst bloodlusted and he clearly wasn't "mindlessly" bloodlusted against Chrollo like he was against the random people in the forest. He was smart, calculating and perfectly aware making strategies on the fly. So even if Muzan can sense through Zetsu he can't sense Chrollo because his stealth exceeds Zetsu.

AoE implies they have a certain area in which they will effect at all times almost omnidirectionally. The whips don't do that he just waves them around quickly but they can still be dodged. Energy Projection Hatsu is something everyone can do and his Ren inherently causes a pressure around the user. So they can be blown back easily.

Clones are created via the preparation the OP gave Chrollo so they can be used as distractions/diversions to set up his attacks. Chrollo has a large stamina reserve so he can dodge the whips for long enough to set his plan into motion.

Black Voice is conjured so he can either dispel the conjuration or Muzan will break them. With prep he doesn't need to create more puppets. Then he could use teleportation and then Black Voice or Fun Fun Cloth.

Chrollo has various ways to catch Muzan off guard so he wins and it's more viable then him getting caught.
 
If Hisoka saw Chrollo's hand trying to punch him, he would have seen him trying to poke him with a needle. I concede the point about Chrollo's stealth abilities, but Muzan dealt with superior ones that involve multiple presence concealment talismans that give literal invisibility, implying he can detect someone with a lesser amount of talismans.

According to Hisoka, Chrolo needs one to two seconds in order ot create a puppet, and he will need more time to use Sun & Moon and Order Stamp. So people in an open space and not distrated by watching Hisoka in the arena will notice and panic due to a crazy guy creating corpses by touching people. UP1 said that his flesh sword will disintegrate if he tries to cut Gyomei's high-quality Nichirin chains, so Nichirin does have some durability negation. This means that Chrollo has no option but to get in melee range.

Furthermore, in order to use Order Stamp to issue a simple attack command, the puppets need to know who the person is and his location. So at best in order to not be shouting in viewing distance from Muzan, Chrollo would need to draw a picture of Muzan and show it to peoploe before he creates any puppets from them (he also can't teach people about Sun & Moon to ensure the puppets explode correctly). The corpse puppets did not demonstrate the ability to create and maintain new memories. This is extremely inefficient.

It seems ******** is down for 72 hours to switch their hosting service.

Even if you define AoE differently, we can agree that Muzan can attack in a large radius and easily incapicate a group of puppets with one swing, and Muzan has demonstrated the ability to attack with eight tentacles simultaneously. Gon who had a much greater affinity to Emission due to being an Enhancer tried energy projection and it was rather weak. Chrollo doesn't have Ren feats to no-sell decently powerful attacks, and he would have one of the worst Nen affinities to due so because he is a Specialist.

If Black Voice doesn't use a physical phone then it can't be reconjured easily. Shalnark is afraid for his phone breaking if mishandled by others.

To summarize why Muzan wins:

  • The puppet strategy is only effective in a combat arena setting, and is highly ineffective as a distraction here
  • Creating clones is limited and has with severe disadvantages such as not being able to use additional abilities
  • Chrollo has no choice but to get in melee range of Muzan, in which case he is likely to get at least scratched due to Muzan spamming several wide-range attacks at the same time, and getting scratched is enough for Chrollo to die. Chrollo has no way to ensure his victory or develop a 'safe strategy' nor can he win at a distance with puppets. Chrollo will run out of stamina faster since Muzan has higher stamina, reactive evolution, and can strengthen himself by further eating the corpse puppets
 
Not sure how it's invisibility. Muzan also doesn't notice her until she's right up into his face.

Chrollo has preparation time. So he can make the puppets. Just because Muzan is vastly superior to all the Demon Slayers and they can't cut his whips doesn't mean someone on the same tier if not superior to him physically can't pierce them. And iirc those sword negate durability to some extent because they absorb sunlight. I'm pretty sure sunlight can't kill Muzan.

Chrollo himself orders any puppets he makes he doesn't need to teach them anything. Chrollo could simply point in the general direction of the person he wanted to "break". Even if he shouted about Muzan he could escape him if he wished. Teleportation or just running away are two methods. He was able to escape Hisoka and trick him continuously.

Chrollo is a nen master whilst Gon was still a novice at the time. Even having 40% affinity and being a master within that is good enough for energy projection. We saw a master in 80% affinity with Energy Projection, Zeno. His aura is powerful and his enhancement was able to rival Zeno's in defending against Silva. He's also around mid tier in the Troupe when it comes to physical strength which is actually impressive considering he has the worst affinity with enhancement techniques.

Even then he can use the advanced techniques, which every high tier nen user can use, to amp his durability in certain spots so in the unlikely case Muzan tags him. He tanks the whip because he focuses aura on the places necessary. He's already more durable then Muzan. With amps he isn't getting scratched.

And assuming Muzan is fooled with a Chrollo clones it'd be game over because he's already off-guard. Which means Chrollo can come in with Fun Fun Cloth.

The puppet strategy would be effective in any crowded setting. Although mobility was lessened in that arena. If Hisoka can be overwhelmed by puppets coming from all directions. Bare in mind he's physically stronger then Muzan and still got overwhelmed and Muzan can't attack from all directions. Whilst he's engaged with the puppets. Chrollo comes in with Black Voice from his blindspots.

The clones can be kept active without the actual page for it being out via Sun and Moon so he can use other abilities whilst they're active.

I'm not denying Chrollo needs to win from short range. As I mentioned before there's no way for Muzan to deal with all the puppets at the same time and Chrollo. If he focuses on Chrollo, he gets swarmed and can't do anything but get sealed in Fun Fun Cloth. If he focuses on the puppets or a Chrollo clone then Chrollo comes in and hit him with Black Voice.

Stamina is not really a factor here because Chrollo has a huge reserve and the fight won't last for days. He just needs to set up Muzan and take him out with either Fun Fun Cloth or Black Voice.
 
Oh ok. But the links for his abilities... Are they broken? I know ******** is down but I used another site as well.
 
No there was a thread saying you can't have links to mangasites now because of fandom. So I had to unfortunately take it off. However I will add every feat later as an objective link not tied to manga sites.
 
Is that why I can't add Muzan's loss to his page? It kept saying something about how a manga site prevents me from editing a page or something
 
I tried to add the loss later when I added win to Chrollo's page, but KNY pages are kinda locked with the manga links
 
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