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Morganthe Upgrades

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The_Everlasting

VS Battles
Joke Battles
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So, many months ago this page was made. Then a few weeks later she was downgraded a lot. However, after looking through some of the lore and dialogue for the game, I've come to the conclusion that some (Not all) of the downgrades were illegitimate.

This primarily comes with one single point: The size of the Spiral (The name of the game's main setting). According to one of the developers of the game, the Spiral is merely the size of a solar system, and all worlds share the same sun. However, as shown by its desig, how it has stars in the night sky and even its general name, it's fairly evident that the Spiral is meant to be a galaxy, while it being a solar system is only pointed out by one Q&A from a developer, when everything else seems to say otherwise. Additionally, due to the very appearance of the Spiral, it's basically impossible for there to be only one sun in it that all worlds share. Even then, one of Kogasha's (A boss from a bonus dungeon) mentions how he was pulled from the stars and lived in a "star-field".

"Long ago, Lyon pulled me from the stars, where I dwelt in peace with my people within the star-fields of Yago."

As well as Morganthe having "pulled down the stars" when she was much younger.

"She studied in the Star Alcazar but it went poorly. She could not master the delicacies of Star magic and quit in a furor. In her wrath, she blamed all but herself. She pulled the stars out of the sky, and we were consumed in a cataclysm of starfire."

Now while her page states that these are not like real stars, nothing points towards this save the AOE fallacy with it only destroying a small area, when you could say the exact same thing about Ultimecia's Great Attractor in Final Fantasy VIII, where she throws planets but they only look slightly larger than the party once they enter the same screen.

However, as implied by one line of dialogue, Shadow Morganthe actually planned to recreate the entire universe:

"Your blood shall water the foundations of my new universe, the Shadow Web!"

And given how it was the timeline she was going to rewrite (As her page currently mentions), this would be a Low 2-C feat, not to mention how little sense it makes that she could only rewrite the timeline of one specific space and not the rest of the universe (Yes, the Spiral exists in the universe, as your character is mentioned as having come from "a world that does not even believe in magic", I.E. Earth).

All the rest of the downgrades are legitimate, however.

My suggested AP change is this:

Attack Potency: At least Large Star level (Pulled the stars out of the sky in outrage for not mastering Star magic) | At least Large Star level, likely higher (Far more powerful than her younger self) | Universe level+ (Capable of rewriting the timeline of the entire universe)

Key: Young Morganthe | Adult Morganthe | Shadow Morganthe

The Low 2-C only scales to three characters: The player character (As they harm her and tank her attacks), Malistaire the Undying (Who fights the player character after they fight Morganthe), and Rasputin (Who is the firstborn son of Grandfather Spider [The natural enemy of Bartleby and Grandmother Raven, who created everything] and, once again, fights the player character after they fight both Shadow Morganthe and Malistaire the Undying), which definitely helps consistency.

Note that the above clarifications about the Spiral are really just there for profiles I later plan to make.
 
How many of the stars were pulled?

Additionally, "recreating" a universe does not at all imply rewriting the entire timeline, much less an implication of such. More evidence than that is necessary to convince me. That could quite easily mean simply conquering the universe and making it her domain.
 
It seems this developer's statement was plain wrong, and contradicted by so much within the game including its own lore/dialougue. So I certainly believe it should be discarded.

I agree with these upgrades.
 
I'm really uncomfortable with a very vague claim made by an arrogant, power-drunk magic user that they can rewrite an entire timeline, and no one now or since the page's creation has been able to cite where it was stated/suggested that she could do so of her own power.

I'm not really opposed to the Large Star level business; if anything, it seems likelier to be Soalr System or Multi-Solar System, seeing as "the stars" seemingly refers to a great many, given the presence of a galaxy all around them (and that "the stars" usually refers to the ones in the night sky in fiction). I just remember when the page was a similar level without any justification of note, and I want to avoid recreating that.
 
recreating" a universe does not at all imply rewriting the entire timeline, much less an implication of such. More evidence than that is necessary to convince me. That could quite easily mean simply conquering the universe and making it her domain.
This really makes no sense whatsoever.

She had just become a Reality Warping God, and recreating a universe does indeed imply rewriting it fully. Furthermore, she talks about creating a new universe, so it is not simply conquering her. Finally, this is no outlier as only a handful of characters, one of them them being the son of one of the creator deities, would scale to her.
 
"Reality Warping God" means literally nothing in fiction. Anyone can be a reality-warping god by possessing reality-warping and declaring themselves a god as a result. Possessing reality-warping does not make you Low 2-C.

Anyone, furthermore, can talk about "creating a new universe", but unless they demonstrate the ability to do so from scratch, what this means is also too vague to just assume to be Low 2-C. People on earth have created countries by overthrowing governments, they're sure as hell not Country level. The same principle applies: if she were to declare herself all-powerful and begin to remake the universe in her image over an unspecified length of time, that would be conquering it, regardless of any display of power.

Who it would and wouldn't scale to is irrelevant, it's her feat. That would be considered an outlier for the character being scaled to the antagonist, not the antagonist themselves.

These are literally the exact same points Everlasting brought forward in chat, repetition doesn't make an argument more correct. The fact remains that no evidence has been brought forward of her ability to (even potentially) rewrite an entire timeline, and until that happens you can't just decide that Morganthe can because you feel like it. The burden of proof is not on me, the static, to prove she cannot; it is on you, the dynamic, to prove she can, or at the very least to find evidence to suggest it.

Seriously, guys, all I'm asking for is like, a link or something. Why is this so much harder than it has to be?
 
Originally there was The First World, yet it was destroyed in the first war involving the Titans. And then Bartleby, the World Tree, used the Song of Creation to rewrite reality, replacing the destroyed First World with the Spiral.

Morganthe has that same power and was going to create her new universe.
 
For the last part regarding Shadow Morganthe, perhaps the term "possibly" could be added to the Universe+ part, since she has never actually demonstrated destroying said timeline; it was only hinted at.

Thus, Shadow Morganthe's AP would be written as "At least Galaxy level, possibly Universe level+". This is based on the quote:

it's fairly evident that the Spiral is meant to be a galaxy,
"Possibly" is added because we are only basing it on a statement, and not on a feat that was shown.
 
"The First World" isn't a universe, it was the land upon which the Aztecosaurs lived as per your linked video, and it was from it's fragments that the Spiral was built. As pointed out by Everlasting, the Spiral is depicted as being galaxy-like in size, so all you've given me is that Song of Creation = Galaxy level. Assuming Morganthe can indeed weaponize the full power of an event like this, that's what she would get.

The only time "Universe" is ever brought up is by Morganthe herself, with the whole "Your blood will build by new universe" spiel. Given no other feat in the verse has rewritten a timeline, assuming that this automatically is referring to such is just illogical in every way I can think of. I can see maybe... Universe level?... if you want to take it really literally, but thats still not an implication of a space-time continuum.

"At least 3-C, possibly 3-A" work for you? I'm trying to compromise, here.
 
I am not familiar with the verse or character, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with the upgrades.

Not sure exactly about the last key.
 
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