MonsterVerse Tiering Issues.

[KieranH10]

Ok, so this has needed changing for a while now, as it makes no sense...

Currently the minor Titans in the Monsters such as Behemoth and Scylla do not scale to the main cast due to not having feats showing them comparable to the cast. But the justifications for the new Titans tiers go as follows:
"can generate earthquakes that should be stronger than the magnitude 6.3 earthquake, generated by the physically smaller male MUTO, said earthquake yielded this much power"
This justification makes zero sense for multiple reasons:

Firstly: This justification attempts to use the Earthquake feat from the Male MUTO as if it's all the MUTO had achieved. Essentially scaling it the the MUTO. But the MUTO that it compares to is 6-B, not 7-C. If we're going to use this justification, the Titans should be scaled to the MUTO fully, not just arbitrarily scaled to a singular feat that the MUTO achieved.

Secondly: The justification also doesn't take into account even smaller, more notable monsters, Mothra and Rodan. These Monsters are scaled to 6-B, and didn't even create Earthquakes when emerging, so if we're going by the "Physically smaller" Monsters in the description, we should take Mothra and Rodan into account, who are also 6-B.

Basically we need to upgrade the less notable monsters to the level of the main cast as we have no reason not to. Their current ratings are not only wrong, but somewhat rely on size, and if we're going to go by size, they're much larger than other 6-B monsters in-verse. So they should be upgraded either way.

 

[ZeedKZ]

I agree that it's not the best thing to scale the other titans to the HokMuto earthquake, but i disagree with upgrading them to 6-B, Rodan is 6-B for fighting King Ghidorah, and Mothra is for hurting Rodan, it's not actually about the size.

 

[KieranH10]

I see no reason not to upgrade them? They're clearly comparable to the other larger Titans. The Queen MUTO, who was introduced in the same movie with just as little feats or context is scaled to 6-B because of a director statement, the other kaiju should at least scale to the Queen Muto as they're shown as comparable because they're all just as big a threat to Monarch.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

That's not really true. The novel expands upon further that there used to be many more Titans and many of them are dead, on top of that, director Michael Dougherty confirmed that Godzilla wouldn't really have any problems killing another Titan if he was hungry and wanted some radioactive steak.

 

[KieranH10]

Just because he's superior to them does not mean that they aren't 6-B. Godzilla already scales higher than other 6-Bs in the verse. Godzilla didn't have much trouble with the Male MUTO once he managed to hit it, the Male and Female MUTO's were both taken down by him.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Godzilla, heavily injured after fighting King Ghidorah and using up an absurd amount of power to finish him off as Burning Godzilla, still immediately made all the other Titans bow down to him by looking at them funny. The novel even notes how they don't dare oppose King Ghidorah when he declares himself the top predator of the planet.

Essentially they'd be really hard-pressed to scale when the narrative and lore points to Godzilla and Ghidorah as the top tiers and able to just shit on all of them even at the same time.

 

[KieranH10]

The Queen MUTO Bows too though? If the Queen MUTO is superior to the other MUTO's who almost killed him in the first movie. Then the Titans present at the end of the second would certainly give him a hard time, they're bowing because he's superior to any individual one of them, they aren't gonna engage unless they all do. Which isn't gonna happen since they're bowing.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Problem is Queen MUTO has lore comparing her to the others of her species, being the strongest of them all, putting her above MUTO Prime who was relative to 2014 Godzilla (there's a whole new mess of scaling that creature due to author statements) who should scale to his casually country durability and Ghidorah's passive country to borderline large country storms.
The other Titans have no such lore of being able to challenge Godzilla for the throne.

 

[KieranH10]

The Queen MUTO has no lore saying she has a chance against Godzilla, The only lore the Queen MUTO has is a director statement saying she's above the Female MUTO. Not the entire species. So essentially, she's stronger than something that current Godzilla would annihilate due to his amps. Which is why she bowed to him at the end. As did Rodan. The other titans should at least scale to these.

The fact that they're shown in a similar manor to the Queen MUTO in the movie should be enough to show that they're somewhat comparable. The movie wouldn't make it a big deal that they were waking up if they could easily be killed by Monarch, who have 6-B weaponry in the Argo.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

She's bigger, different, more evolved and has the scars to prove she's had fights before. Not to mention she DOES scale above MUTO Prime verbatim since MUTO Prime isn't the strongest MUTO.

The Argo can only be in one place and was chasing the main one, Ghidorah. The Argo only has 6-B weapons for kinda annoying Ghidorah.

 

[KieranH10]

bigger, different, and more evolved doesn't mean much though if she hasn't shown anything to prove herself superior to the others.

If we're against scaling the Titans due to size, Bigger means nothing at all.
Different means as little as the differences between each other MUTO.
and More Evolved could mean anything. It could mean the exact same thing that put MUTO Prime slightly above Godzilla, it could mean she's genetically perfected for hunting Goji.

If the Queen MUTO is superior to the other MUTOs without feats other than "bigger, different, and more evolved" which are nothing but design choices. Then I still don't see why the other Titans shouldn't be.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Because they have nothing at all.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

The Queen MUTO has implications of strength compared to other MUTOs, but Behemoth, Scylla, Mokele, Methuselah, none of them do.

 

[KieranH10]

But they're implied comparable through their presentation in the movie. They caused similar earthquakes to the Male MUTO when emerging.
Every other monster in the Godzilla movies has been shown as somewhat comparable to Godzilla, while inferior, granted. The new Kaiju should not be any different just because they got little screen time. The very fact that the Directors believe and intended for the Queen MUTO to be comparable/superior to other MUTOs, should be enough evidence that they believe that the other Monsters are also on this level.
Why would they make a movie with a bunch of new monsters, and only 1 of those monsters is anywhere near the level of the main cast? With just as much evidence as the others, other than the director saying "that one's stronger"

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

That doesn't mean they're comparable to the full strength of the MUTO. They lack the feats, statements or implications.
Not true, plenty of monsters have gotten curbstomped by Godzilla in one sided death matches (Zilla, Giant Condor, Kamacarus, etc)
The Queen MUTO is scaled directly to their kin, which battle and fight Godzilla's kind and Godzilla himself.
There's simply no evidence to claim the others scale to Godzilla. They bowed down to him with no resistance whatsoever, only Rodan dared to try. Ghidorah's rule being absolute was noted in the novel, with none of the Titans other than Rodan defying him.

 

[KieranH10]

If they don't compare to the MUTO, then the profiles need changing as they imply that they do.
Those examples are from completely separate Zillas. The Monsterverse presents Titans similarly to each other. Hence Kong fighting Zilla next year. He's currently 8-B at best, but him growing in size until Godzilla vs Kong makes him comparable to Godzilla.
I'm not saying they should scale to Godzilla, I'm saying they should scale to weaker monsters in the series, I get that they have absolutely no feats scaling to Godzilla.
Them bowing to Godzilla doesn't really count as them being hugely below him though, the Queen MUTO bowed to him, and we both agree she's 6-B via scaling to other MUTOs, and we both also agree that she's weaker than Godzilla. The other titans are no different. The Queen MUTO has no feats because her implications with other MUTOs are enough to scale her. But why isn't that enough with other monsters, even though they were shown just as destructive as she was, and were clearly shown as at least a somewhat comparable threat.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

The implication is that the MUTO earthquake in 2014 was reported, but the KOTM disasters were noted as worse (though granted there's a bunch more).
Not necessarily. Again, many of the Titans are dead and get eaten by the others or just stomped. Dagon for instance got two shot by MUTO Prime while Godzilla fought it rather well. Kong is going to scale for stupid reasons. Not because he's big, but so that he CAN fight Godzilla and not get ripped in half.
That is a fair point, but the gap between them has to be large for all 14 to appear and still do nothing to a nearly dead Godzilla. Godzilla still believed he could take them, as explained in the novel. So Godzilla either got MUCH stronger than his 2014 self (which is possible) or most of the Titans simply aren't that strong compared to him.

 

[KieranH10]

I still feel it needs changing. Either to scale them or simply remove that justification. We shouldn't scale to something another creature did by waking up, if it weren't even trying to attack anything. If they're gonna scale to the MUTOs earthquakes because their earthquakes should be superior due to their larger size, then why cant we scale to the MUTO for the same reasons.
Dagon is also 6-B through this very feat though. If he got two shot and essentially stomped and can still be 6-B, why cant the others.
I'll admit the Kong thing is likely PIS, and kinda stupid tbf.
Godzilla had been shown much superior to his 2014 self. Mainly because in G14 he'd just emerged iirc. So it took him time to regain his strength. Now that he's at full strength in KotM (as shown by his huge increase in Atomic Breath, etc), he's much stronger in KotM.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I still feel it needs changing. Either to scale them or simply remove that justification. We shouldn't scale to something another creature did by waking up, if it weren't even trying to attack anything. If they're gonna scale to the MUTOs earthquakes because their earthquakes should be superior due to their larger size, then why cant we scale to the MUTO for the same reasons.
Dagon is also 6-B through this very feat though. If he got two shot and essentially stomped and can still be 6-B, why cant the others.
I'll admit the Kong thing is likely PIS, and kinda stupid tbf.
Godzilla had been shown much superior to his 2014 self. Mainly because in G14 he'd just emerged iirc. So it took him time to regain his strength. Now that he's at full strength in KotM (as shown by his huge increase in Atomic Breath, etc), he's much stronger in KotM.

I agree the other titans should be equal to main cast... So probably a Likely should do the job.

@DarkDragonMedeus what do yo think?

 

[KieranH10]

I'm fine with a Likely 6-B.

 

[KieranH10]

Bump

 

[KieranH10]

Bumpo

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Bumpo

You have to call some mods to participate here

@Antvasima, @DarkDragonMedeus, @WeeklyBattles

 

[KieranH10]

My bad. I didn't know if we were allowed to @ staff members.

 

[Cropfist]

What is the concrete proof they scale? I am pretty sure godzilla tiers are clearly stronger than other kaiju

 

[KieranH10]

Other Kaiju in the series have been shown hugely weaker than Godzilla via getting two-shot by other weaker kaiju, but these Kaiju have stayed in the same tier despite being so much weaker.
The titans in question are shown as at least somewhat comparable to the Queen MUTO via portrayal in the movie, who is 6-B with no evidence other than WoD and deduction comparing to other MUTOs
The current profiles actually seemingly claim that the Titans are somewhat comparable to the likes of the other MUTOs as they created similar earthquakes when emerging.
All of this should at least warrant a "Likely 6-B" on their profile.

 

[Cropfist]

That sounds more like there is a problem with the scaling in the first place.

 

[KieranH10]

Many people already agreed with the other titan scaling in the past, or it wouldn't be like this in the first place, the titan in question is Dagon, who got annihilated by MUTO Prime, who contended with Godzilla.
But yes, the scaling is a problem either way, it should either include all of the titans being somewhat comparable, or titans who get stomped should be downgraded.
Personally I believe the titans should be upgraded to 6-B, granted they will be much lower in the scaling chain, likely on a similar level to the original MUTOs.

 

[Cropfist]

They should be downgraded if their only feats are getting stomped by 6-B tiers.

 

[Hellbeast]

Plus imo the 6-B rating is a whole ass thing but I’d rather not get into that

I’m fine with these Titans getting a possibly higher rating based on this tho

 

[KieranH10]

I understand the points against the 6-B rating, personally I believe it's fine for what it is.

Ok tho, yeah we're only arguing for a "possibly" or "likely" not a full tier change.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the summarised conclusions here?

 

[KieranH10]

The opinions are mixed still by the look of it.
Apex and Hellbeast seem to agree with an upgrade to "possibly 6-B" for the titans
Cropfist disagrees with this.

 

[Antvasima]

@WeeklyBattles @DarkDragonMedeus

Do you have any comments about this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not sure where 6-B comes from if I can have a link to the calculation and/or specific statement that got that high, but the Magnitude 6.3 feat is only 7-C yes. I can wait for Weekly to come though.

 

[KieranH10]

The 6-B feat comes from Godzilla tanking the Permian Extinction meteor. Here's the link to the calc.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus:

Thank you for helping out.

 

[KieranH10]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@WeeklyBattles

I would appreciate your input here.

 

[KieranH10]

Bumpo