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Monster Hunter low tiers downgrade
- Thread starter Keeweed
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While I disagree with them being weaken (I have an argument typed against it, but this comment makes it pointless), and they do have three 9-B feats (all of them being falling very large distances just fine). I guess if people fine the key unnecessary it’ll be fine not to add.
I’m going to be working for the rest of the day, so I’ll be back later.
I’m going to be working for the rest of the day, so I’ll be back later.
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how many more people need to agree before the Revisions actually start?
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Well, what Bambu and Kieran have accepted can probably be applied.
Please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.
If you change the statistics for any characters, also remember to update the tier categories at the bottoms of the profile pages.
Please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.
If you change the statistics for any characters, also remember to update the tier categories at the bottoms of the profile pages.
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Durability feats are combat feats though. Durability is a part of combat, you would mean ap feats but the Hunter can always hurt other hunters through the entire game so I think it would be pretty reasonable to say they can hurt themselves at the beginning of the game.
Though if people really think the key is unnecessary I’ll be fine not adding it (personally I think it is necessary since it would be categorizing very base hunter’s strength and Jagras being able to stomp the beginning game Hunter would be an ap feat for them and other small monsters)
Should I do the edits or someone like Bambu? I need to work today so if I do them I’ll do them later today.
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A key should have done something combat applicable to exist. The key you're proposing doesn't do anything. At best you could argue 9-B AP/Dura, but at the same time by your own words that doesn't make sense (I'm ignoring my point for a moment). You yourself argued they weren't harmed at all by the fall, an its not as though Jagras one-shots you with default shit on.
The key doesn't need to exist. In every objective sense it does nothing and isn't significant.
The key doesn't need to exist. In every objective sense it does nothing and isn't significant.
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Having 9-B durability and ap is enough of a reason for it to exist. I can think of many characters on this site that literally never fight in their stories but have keys or pages due to their general existence. For example the large giants in the Elder Scrolls literally appear in side stories for a couple seconds, they have a key on the giant’s profile. They never fight and everything about them literally just comes from them being big.
The Hunter’s key would also has two other purposes, it sets a standard for base hunters (like other people in the verse rather than the main character), and showcases the Hunter before they get equipment.
While I know you absolutely disagree with its existence and thus it isn’t going to get added, I personally think it has plenty of reasons to exist and has a solid enough tier. It at least has vastly more reasons then the elder scrolls large giants.
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I would argue that it isn't given that, again, can't state this enough, it doesn't do anything for combat. This isn't a key for lore-notable special version of a normal monster, this is "the pc was unequipped for 2 minutes at the start of the game and I would like that to have a profile for some reason".
Except it objectively doesn't, since even base hunters are going out and fighting Jagras, and have their weapons and armor. So this objectively cannot serve the purpose you're claiming. And... why would we showcase the Hunter before they get equipment when they don't do anything?
It doesn't in any objective sense. "The Hunter except devoid of everything they have ever owned" is different than "Super large giants appeared once".
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I do agree with Bambu here that the Hunter having an unequipped key does seems incredibly unnecessary and would likely be based on assumptions anyways, as we only really have a durability feat. At most I can see the Hunter's current first key having "9-B physically" added to it, but this also seems pretty unnecessary imo.
The Hunter has nothing to fight with unequipped, and has never been seen fighting anything, because it is in character for them to always bring equipment, so knowing how they fight without equipment is impossible since, well, they never do that. They've only been seen notably unequipped under circumstances that weren't their own choice.
This would be more like making a key for Superman when being near Kryptonite, it's simply a depowered version of the character that they would never willingly fight as.
The Hunter has nothing to fight with unequipped, and has never been seen fighting anything, because it is in character for them to always bring equipment, so knowing how they fight without equipment is impossible since, well, they never do that. They've only been seen notably unequipped under circumstances that weren't their own choice.
This would be more like making a key for Superman when being near Kryptonite, it's simply a depowered version of the character that they would never willingly fight as.
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“At most I can see the Hunter's current first key having "9-B physically" added to it, but this also seems pretty unnecessary imo.”
I’ll get to what I quoted soon, just need to say something.
The changes that were accepted should just be applied now, I’m going to talk the Hunter at the beginning because I feel like I argued for it very little and I want people to understand why I thought it should be there.
Back to Kieran’s comment I quoted it because how he worded it is a lot better than a separate key, though I want to say something.
There are plenty of characters on this site who’s main powers are stealing equipment (Kazuma is an obvious example), so rating what the Hunter is without equipment is actually very important because if they get their stuff stolen or it is destroyed then how strong they are without the equipment becomes important.
I’ll get to what I quoted soon, just need to say something.
The changes that were accepted should just be applied now, I’m going to talk the Hunter at the beginning because I feel like I argued for it very little and I want people to understand why I thought it should be there.
Back to Kieran’s comment I quoted it because how he worded it is a lot better than a separate key, though I want to say something.
There are plenty of characters on this site who’s main powers are stealing equipment (Kazuma is an obvious example), so rating what the Hunter is without equipment is actually very important because if they get their stuff stolen or it is destroyed then how strong they are without the equipment becomes important.
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But even then, the durability feat logically isn't their durability, since they can wear the exact same armor and take hits from early game monsters.
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Yes, the changes regarding weaker monsters should be applied. I've applied the last two verse wide crts and don't have the time rn tho, i'm also unsure of the exact monsters affected by this since I haven't played all of the games...
As for the last point, I suppose that is fair, I could personally get behind adding a little detail of his physicals on his first key if others thought it was fair enough.
As for the last point, I suppose that is fair, I could personally get behind adding a little detail of his physicals on his first key if others thought it was fair enough.
What armor are we talking about? I thought we were discussing The Hunter without any of their early armor.
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You can upgrade the armor though, you are specific given a mini quest to upgrade your stuff after the Jagras mission. You can wear the exact same armor to fight Elder Dragons as you can regular monsters, so there is clearly just a gameplay story separation problem. The dialogue at the beginning of the game says you are defenseless against Jagras and when you come back equipped with stuff now they have fighting them be basic training.
Edit: Did you mean the armor took their falls? Falls ignore armor for the most part, if you drop a 9-A tank a couple feet or an elephant both are getting very messed up. Falling hurts because an object suddenly stops, the Hunter’s body would suddenly stop upon hitting the ground whether they have armor on or not.
Edit: Did you mean the armor took their falls? Falls ignore armor for the most part, if you drop a 9-A tank a couple feet or an elephant both are getting very messed up. Falling hurts because an object suddenly stops, the Hunter’s body would suddenly stop upon hitting the ground whether they have armor on or not.
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Mr. Bambu
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After the Jagras mission being the main point here. You're defenseless in the sense that you can't fight because you're proposing a key with no weapons. The edit part of your comment sorta invalidates the durability argument you had, doesn't it?
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You start with default armor.
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“The edit part of your comment sorta invalidates the durability argument you had, doesn't it?”
It does the exact opposite, what I said is that the armor wouldn’t protect you from falls, so the Hunter would have to take the full brunt of them. Ignoring how you can start the game unarmored
“You're defenseless in the sense that you can't fight because you're proposing a key with no weapons.”
That proposal recently changed, now it’s just the Hunter’s physical stats without equipment in their low rank key. So they would be 9-B physically 8-C to high 8-C with equipment. This would actually be important to rate because people that can steal or destroy their equipment (for example Kazuma) would be at a massive advantage against the Hunter.
“You start with default armor.”
In world you can start with high rank armor, unarmored, or with leather/chain armor. Which means A) we have no clue if they actually had armor, B) it doesn’t matter for the base armor because you can upgrade your armor and are given materials to do so after the Jagras quest. The Handler is afraid for her and your safety from Jagras and after you get equipment they threat it as a basic training mission, implying your character got better equipped at the main hub.
It does the exact opposite, what I said is that the armor wouldn’t protect you from falls, so the Hunter would have to take the full brunt of them. Ignoring how you can start the game unarmored
“You're defenseless in the sense that you can't fight because you're proposing a key with no weapons.”
That proposal recently changed, now it’s just the Hunter’s physical stats without equipment in their low rank key. So they would be 9-B physically 8-C to high 8-C with equipment. This would actually be important to rate because people that can steal or destroy their equipment (for example Kazuma) would be at a massive advantage against the Hunter.
“You start with default armor.”
In world you can start with high rank armor, unarmored, or with leather/chain armor. Which means A) we have no clue if they actually had armor, B) it doesn’t matter for the base armor because you can upgrade your armor and are given materials to do so after the Jagras quest. The Handler is afraid for her and your safety from Jagras and after you get equipment they threat it as a basic training mission, implying your character got better equipped at the main hub.
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"It does the exact opposite, what I said is that the armor wouldn’t protect you from falls, so the Hunter would have to take the full brunt of them. Ignoring how you can start the game unarmored"
Yeah, but you yourself put it like this: a 9-A can still take fall damage. So the Hunter, given that they can take hits from the 8-C Jagras in the same exact state, isn't any statistically different, they're just incapable of fighting due to a certain lack of equipment (again, you're suggesting a combat key with similar stats to the first except no AP because they do not engage in combat during the first 2 minutes of the game).
Why would they be 9-B physically when they can't even hit anything
I don't understand dude, I really don't. Your points make no sense. I'm saying hard no. Final vote for me.
Yeah, but you yourself put it like this: a 9-A can still take fall damage. So the Hunter, given that they can take hits from the 8-C Jagras in the same exact state, isn't any statistically different, they're just incapable of fighting due to a certain lack of equipment (again, you're suggesting a combat key with similar stats to the first except no AP because they do not engage in combat during the first 2 minutes of the game).
Why would they be 9-B physically when they can't even hit anything
I don't understand dude, I really don't. Your points make no sense. I'm saying hard no. Final vote for me.
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What I meant by a 9-A taking fall damage is things like Tanks. Things entirely reliant on armor for their durability. The Hunter surviving falls would only be 9-B, just that if a 9-B falls in a certain way (like elephants) or is entirely reliant on armor (like tanks) the fall would kill/break them.
“8-C Jagras”
Are you referring to the great Jagras, as I keep mentioning the regular Jagras are stated to be able to easily defeat you without proper equipment. You can upgrade your armor which is why the Hunter when he fights the Great Jagras can have 8-C armor. Meanwhile the Hunter couldn’t have upgraded their armor when they ran into the regular Jagras and have a large likelihood of being completely unarmored, since the very same selection screen that gives you leather and chain armor can also give you high rank armor if you have iceborne.
Also even if their durability scales to the great Jagras (which it shouldn’t since regular Jagras are stated to be capable of killing you) 1) That still means their high 8-C durability would only come from armor, 2) Their ap without equipment would be below 9-B which should still be listed because if someone like Kazuma steals their weapon that means they are completely screwed in a verses thread.
“8-C Jagras”
Are you referring to the great Jagras, as I keep mentioning the regular Jagras are stated to be able to easily defeat you without proper equipment. You can upgrade your armor which is why the Hunter when he fights the Great Jagras can have 8-C armor. Meanwhile the Hunter couldn’t have upgraded their armor when they ran into the regular Jagras and have a large likelihood of being completely unarmored, since the very same selection screen that gives you leather and chain armor can also give you high rank armor if you have iceborne.
Also even if their durability scales to the great Jagras (which it shouldn’t since regular Jagras are stated to be capable of killing you) 1) That still means their high 8-C durability would only come from armor, 2) Their ap without equipment would be below 9-B which should still be listed because if someone like Kazuma steals their weapon that means they are completely screwed in a verses thread.
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Yes, I am referring to the Great Jagras, as I have personally stated I think 9-A for normal Jagras is stupid. Yeah, you can upgrade it, but not like immediately, nor to any significant degree. It's a bad point you're making. High rank armor is added DLC and wasn't in the original, I wouldn't consider that anything tbh since its literally just the game giving you a fast pass to the good stuff.
Like I said, I flat out disagree with the existence of such a key and will continue to do so until some purpose for its existence is made. At the moment that purpose is just "well what if they didn't have anything and didn't do anything", which is a stupid reason for a key to exist, no offense intended. It quite simply goes against standards of the site and common sense.
Like I said, I flat out disagree with the existence of such a key and will continue to do so until some purpose for its existence is made. At the moment that purpose is just "well what if they didn't have anything and didn't do anything", which is a stupid reason for a key to exist, no offense intended. It quite simply goes against standards of the site and common sense.
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I’m not talking about a new key anymore that changed a few comments ago when Kieran pointed something out. Now this is about having the Hunter’s physical stats without equipment in his low rank key be lower than with equipment. Like as I mentioned earlier he would be either 9-B or unknown physically (though at max 9-B) and 8-C to high 8-C with equipment.
In game you can’t upgrade it to a massive degree but in the story you quickly go from fighting fodder monsters to fighting low tier monsters, to fighting the monsters that are stated to stomp those monsters, The armor rating increase in game being crappy doesn’t matter, because the Hunter shoots through tiers in the story very fast. So those armor upgrades in story definitely mean something or else the Hunter would have gotten completely stomped at a certain point.
I can think of many games that have equipment increases be very crappy, but in story your tier changes like crazy, Dark Souls and Bloodborne are great examples, if you do mostly bosses only you’re only level up a couple of times, but those level ups in verse jumped you from 8-B to eventually 4-C.
“well what if they didn't have anything”
There are dozens of characters on this site that can magical steal or destroy equipment instantly. We should rate a character, that relies on equipment, physical stats, because if they lose the equipment then they are screwed. If we don’t rate their physical stats then people wouldn’t know that. Ignoring how that definitely isn’t useless information, how strong someone is physically is very important.
In game you can’t upgrade it to a massive degree but in the story you quickly go from fighting fodder monsters to fighting low tier monsters, to fighting the monsters that are stated to stomp those monsters, The armor rating increase in game being crappy doesn’t matter, because the Hunter shoots through tiers in the story very fast. So those armor upgrades in story definitely mean something or else the Hunter would have gotten completely stomped at a certain point.
I can think of many games that have equipment increases be very crappy, but in story your tier changes like crazy, Dark Souls and Bloodborne are great examples, if you do mostly bosses only you’re only level up a couple of times, but those level ups in verse jumped you from 8-B to eventually 4-C.
“well what if they didn't have anything”
There are dozens of characters on this site that can magical steal or destroy equipment instantly. We should rate a character, that relies on equipment, physical stats, because if they lose the equipment then they are screwed. If we don’t rate their physical stats then people wouldn’t know that. Ignoring how that definitely isn’t useless information, how strong someone is physically is very important.
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I agree with Kieran and Bambu on this.
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"I’m not talking about a new key anymore that changed a few comments ago when Kieran pointed something out. Now this is about having the Hunter’s physical stats without equipment in his low rank key be lower than with equipment. Like as I mentioned earlier he would be either 9-B or unknown physically (though at max 9-B) and 8-C to high 8-C with equipment."
I still have to disagree, since this is the same argument you made before but reskinned. Now you're trying to merge the stats of the previously suggested key into their normal key. Not a problem, except it doesn't make sense given they never do combat in this way ever. Their sole feats without combat are durability feats that, unless I'm mistaken, you yourself argued did nothing to them. 's pointless.
"In-game you can’t upgrade it to a massive degree but in the story, you quickly go from fighting fodder monsters to fighting low tier monsters, to fighting the monsters that are stated to stomp those monsters, The armor rating increase in-game being crappy doesn’t matter, because the Hunter shoots through tiers in the story very fast. So those armor upgrades in the story definitely mean something or else the Hunter would have gotten completely stomped at a certain point."
Yeah, you go from "I have no weapon" to "I'm gonna go kill a Great Jagras" in like one mission. That's sort of why I think this is just a goofy take overall.
"I can think of many games that have equipment increases be very crappy, but in story, your tier changes like crazy, Dark Souls and Bloodborne are great examples, if you do mostly bosses only you’re only level up a couple of times, but those level-ups in verse jumped you from 8-B to eventually 4-C."
Sure, but the argument "we need to account for when they didn't have any feats" is laughable. A better comparison would be if like... we gave Batman a 10-C key since he showed up in the story as a child once. That's silly.
"There are dozens of characters on this site that can magical steal or destroy equipment instantly. We should rate a character, that relies on equipment, physical stats, because if they lose the equipment then they are screwed. If we don’t rate their physical stats then people wouldn’t know that. Ignoring how that definitely isn’t useless information, how strong someone is physically is very important."
So is the Hunter since they don't actually have any physical feats without their equipment, Keeweed. We don't know with any reliability what their physical stats are. We have a couple of 9-B feats that per your own admittance did zero damage. Epic, excellent, cool. The Hunter should scale to the Great Jagras. Their shit-tier equipment early game kills him just fine.
I still have to disagree, since this is the same argument you made before but reskinned. Now you're trying to merge the stats of the previously suggested key into their normal key. Not a problem, except it doesn't make sense given they never do combat in this way ever. Their sole feats without combat are durability feats that, unless I'm mistaken, you yourself argued did nothing to them. 's pointless.
"In-game you can’t upgrade it to a massive degree but in the story, you quickly go from fighting fodder monsters to fighting low tier monsters, to fighting the monsters that are stated to stomp those monsters, The armor rating increase in-game being crappy doesn’t matter, because the Hunter shoots through tiers in the story very fast. So those armor upgrades in the story definitely mean something or else the Hunter would have gotten completely stomped at a certain point."
Yeah, you go from "I have no weapon" to "I'm gonna go kill a Great Jagras" in like one mission. That's sort of why I think this is just a goofy take overall.
"I can think of many games that have equipment increases be very crappy, but in story, your tier changes like crazy, Dark Souls and Bloodborne are great examples, if you do mostly bosses only you’re only level up a couple of times, but those level-ups in verse jumped you from 8-B to eventually 4-C."
Sure, but the argument "we need to account for when they didn't have any feats" is laughable. A better comparison would be if like... we gave Batman a 10-C key since he showed up in the story as a child once. That's silly.
"There are dozens of characters on this site that can magical steal or destroy equipment instantly. We should rate a character, that relies on equipment, physical stats, because if they lose the equipment then they are screwed. If we don’t rate their physical stats then people wouldn’t know that. Ignoring how that definitely isn’t useless information, how strong someone is physically is very important."
So is the Hunter since they don't actually have any physical feats without their equipment, Keeweed. We don't know with any reliability what their physical stats are. We have a couple of 9-B feats that per your own admittance did zero damage. Epic, excellent, cool. The Hunter should scale to the Great Jagras. Their shit-tier equipment early game kills him just fine.
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“The Hunter should scale to the Great Jagras. Their shit-tier equipment early game kills him just fine.”
Their equipment can kill them (equipment the game has you upgrade before fighting them). The Hunter themselves can’t physically fight them and they it is stated regular 9-B Jagras can kill them. Having their ap without equipment being unknown is not useless information.
Also it is nothing like a child Batman. If Batman gets his suit stolen by Kazuma or disintegrated by a dnd character he still is physically 8-C. Meanwhile if the Hunter gets his weapon stolen or a rust monster wrecks his equipment he physically isn’t strong enough to fight them and dies. There is a massive difference there, and it absolutely is important to point out that if the Hunter loses their equipment their as good as dead against anyone comparable to their equipment.
Their equipment can kill them (equipment the game has you upgrade before fighting them). The Hunter themselves can’t physically fight them and they it is stated regular 9-B Jagras can kill them. Having their ap without equipment being unknown is not useless information.
Also it is nothing like a child Batman. If Batman gets his suit stolen by Kazuma or disintegrated by a dnd character he still is physically 8-C. Meanwhile if the Hunter gets his weapon stolen or a rust monster wrecks his equipment he physically isn’t strong enough to fight them and dies. There is a massive difference there, and it absolutely is important to point out that if the Hunter loses their equipment their as good as dead against anyone comparable to their equipment.
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Again, you're making a case for an equipment-less Hunter, which is featless. Unless we follow your logic of "well they should scale to their dura", in which case their shit-tier gear can take hits from the Jagras, too. This isn't an argument, Keeweed. It's a useless addition to the page.
"Also it is nothing like a child Batman. If Batman gets his suit stolen by Kazuma or disintegrated by a dnd character he still is physically 8-C. Meanwhile if the Hunter gets his weapon stolen or a rust monster wrecks his equipment he physically isn’t strong enough to fight them and dies. There is a massive difference there, and it absolutely is important to point out that if the Hunter loses their equipment their as good as dead against anyone comparable to their equipment."
It absolutely is like Batman lol. You're making a strawman argument here that's not even in response to what I typed, dude. But alright.
"Also it is nothing like a child Batman. If Batman gets his suit stolen by Kazuma or disintegrated by a dnd character he still is physically 8-C. Meanwhile if the Hunter gets his weapon stolen or a rust monster wrecks his equipment he physically isn’t strong enough to fight them and dies. There is a massive difference there, and it absolutely is important to point out that if the Hunter loses their equipment their as good as dead against anyone comparable to their equipment."
It absolutely is like Batman lol. You're making a strawman argument here that's not even in response to what I typed, dude. But alright.
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“shit-tier gear can take hits from the Jagras, too. This isn't an argument, Keeweed. It's a useless addition to the page.”
There upgraded armor can take hits from great Jagras. The Handler says the regular 9-B Jagras where going to kill you without that equipment. The very beginning armor you have the second you start doesn’t scale to the great Jagras by the games own statements.
How is saying the Hunter is physically weaker than his equipment anything like giving Batman a tier for when he was a child. Even if it was like give Batman a child key (despite this not being like that at all) child Batman has zero feats in any category, the Hunter meanwhile has durability feats. Combat feats don’t have to be ap, you can be purely a stonewall to have a profile or key. Also If the adult Batman loses his suit he can still survive hits from and fight 8-Cs. If the 8-C to high 8-C Hunter loses his equipment, a 9-B can kill him. There is a massive difference there for both the kid and adult comparisons.
There upgraded armor can take hits from great Jagras. The Handler says the regular 9-B Jagras where going to kill you without that equipment. The very beginning armor you have the second you start doesn’t scale to the great Jagras by the games own statements.
How is saying the Hunter is physically weaker than his equipment anything like giving Batman a tier for when he was a child. Even if it was like give Batman a child key (despite this not being like that at all) child Batman has zero feats in any category, the Hunter meanwhile has durability feats. Combat feats don’t have to be ap, you can be purely a stonewall to have a profile or key. Also If the adult Batman loses his suit he can still survive hits from and fight 8-Cs. If the 8-C to high 8-C Hunter loses his equipment, a 9-B can kill him. There is a massive difference there for both the kid and adult comparisons.
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Mr. Bambu
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Technically regular Jagras can kill you with your Tier 6 armor. The fact is you can tank Great Jagras with your normal stuff.
As in, you are arguing for an addition that has no bearing on actual statistics. Same reason we wouldn't include Batman as a child. It's the same thing.
As in, you are arguing for an addition that has no bearing on actual statistics. Same reason we wouldn't include Batman as a child. It's the same thing.
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“Technically regular Jagras can kill you with your Tier 6 armor. The fact is you can tank Great Jagras with your normal stuff.”
Jagras being able to kill you with tier 6 armor also isn’t the same as what I’m saying. That is purely gameplay. Jagras have a statement saying they can easily kill you at the beginning of the game. I’m not using gameplay here I’m using the dialogue that is said. The handler says you can’t win against the Jagras and you need to hid for your safety.
You are also told in game by the npcs and given a mini quest to upgrade your equipment before the great Jagras fight. There is statements saying you are physically weaker than regular Jagras and statements saying your equipment was enhanced before the great Jagras fight.
Jagras being able to kill you with tier 6 armor also isn’t the same as what I’m saying. That is purely gameplay. Jagras have a statement saying they can easily kill you at the beginning of the game. I’m not using gameplay here I’m using the dialogue that is said. The handler says you can’t win against the Jagras and you need to hid for your safety.
You are also told in game by the npcs and given a mini quest to upgrade your equipment before the great Jagras fight. There is statements saying you are physically weaker than regular Jagras and statements saying your equipment was enhanced before the great Jagras fight.
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Yes, I believe Bambu also agreed with these two subjects, as did Soul.
From what I can gather, Downgrading the current 9-A monsters to 9-B, and Downgrading any current High 8-Cs who scale below Barroth to 8-C have been agreed upon.
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Just a minor question will the Greatest Jagras key keep his high 8-C rating?
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I meant the Greatest Jagras key. The one for the event version
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