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Monster Hunter low tiers downgrade

Bambu:

What do you think of Axiom's analysis above?
 
Okay. I trust your sense of judgement (except regarding Intelligence statistics ;)).
 
Hey, I wrote our Intelligence statistics page.
 
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Mr._Bambu said:
Yeah but I literally cannot agree with 9-A for Jagras tier monsters given they take a beatdown from monsters stronger than Barroth. This 8-C rating would be exclusive to such monsters, Keeweed.
Click to expand...
I’m going to be busy again soon, but Great Jagras don’t take a beat from Anjanath. The Anjanath killed it in a couple of seconds, also getting stomp doesn’t have you scale on this site. That was changed a long time ago. The Jagras was effortlessly overpowered, ragdolled for a few seconds, then Anjanath instantly killed it with its throw.
 
I could try to calc the boulders that fall on/break on the Jagras in the forest in World, that may yield enough to give a solid number.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I could try to calc the boulders that fall on/break on the Jagras in the forest in World, that may yield enough to give a solid number.
Click to expand...
That’s what I was trying to reference earlier. Also found out the rock formation in rise (the one in the opening forest), is actually very large, so it may get 8-C results for breaking it, I’ll do a very rough calc right now.
 
Ok so this calc was incredibly rough; but I got 9-B for breaking the rock formations in the ruins. To say I’m disappointed is an understatement.
 
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Ignore the last comment, I won’t delete for context. I messed up on converting cubed feet to cubed cm. The actual new results are 0.184 tons of tnt. Here’s the very rough math (I used a ruler to compare the rocks to the Hunter, and I didn’t include the first rock for the final energy because that rock doesn’t get destroyed by the monsters):

Hunter 1.75 inches, actually 5’4
Rock 1
Width: 1.75 inches, 5’4


Rock 2
Length: rock 1 one inch, rock 4 inches 21’4
Width: Hunter 2 inches, rock 4 inches: 10’8
Height: rock 1 one inch, rock 2 inches: 10’8
Volume: 2273 feet or 64364192 cm^3

Rock 3
Length: rock 2 3inches, rock 2 inches: 14’2
Width: rock 2 3 and a half inches, rock 2 1/2 inches: 7’6
Height: rock 2 2 inches, rock 2 inches: 10’8
Volume: 1132 or 32054670 cm^3


Together 96418862 cubic cm
Together 771350896 joules or 0.184 tons of tnt
 
I highly doubt the results I got for the tower calc since I just got the over volume and used 95% hollowness when we should probably do what we did for the Sekiro calc, but I don’t have the time to do that. I got 0.143 tons of tnt, which is very consistent with the other feat. This feat requires a lot of effort on the Arzuros part as it requires multiple of its strongest hits to break the towers. The rock feat from earlier also either requires multiple hits or one hit from these low tier monsters strongest attacks.

Once again considering the crap ton of 9-A feats, with these new ones, the new ones and some of the older ones requiring a large amount of effort, and there being another one with the gate breaking during the rampages. I believe the weaker monsters like Arzuros and the monsters around his strength should be 9-A. If these guys really scale to the Barroth the Barroth feat legitimately should be an outlier there is now over 2 dozen 9-A feats a multitude with great effort versus a single high 8-C. There are 8-C feats but those are both preformed by monsters that live in the Elder’s recess which is literally drowning in bio energy. The monsters that do the 8-C feats also scale to Rathalos and Rathalos level monsters instantly kill the Barroth, and overpower Anjanath (who is stated by the handler to be practically instant death to the Hunter around the time they can fight the Barroth).

What 9-A feats do the small monsters have (like regular Jagras). The large bomb barrels (which are conveniently filled with gun powder so we know their exact yield) instantly kill any small monster throughout all the games, and the falling boulders in world also instantly kill them and that’s likely to be around baseline 9-A. The only 9-A I can think of they have comes from freezing, which no longer scales to physical ap.
 
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Thank you for helping out Mr. Bambu.
 
I’m back to say I’m probably going to be busy for a while. For this week I’ll probably still have enough time to be on this site, but I won’t have enough time to deal with CRTs.

I just want to say the Barroth’s feat should be an outlier. Yes there are 8-C feats but they are preformed by monsters that instantly kill the Barroth. Out of the over two dozen feats preformed by the monsters around Barroth’s level only his is high 8-C while every other one is 9-A. Many of these feats require great difficulty and the things like the bomb barrels, ballista, and canons being able to hurt them is consistent with 9-A while it doesn’t make any sense at all with high 8-C. Ignoring how a reformed wooden gate in canon can keep these monsters at bay for a little while and a large metal gate stops a multitude of them dead in their tracks. The falling boulders also wreck many of the monsters. Anjanath can tank it fine, but he can somewhat (barely) fight the Diablos while the Diablos instantly kills the Barroth with zero difficulty.
 
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Okay. That seems to make sense to me. What do the rest of you think?
 
Outlier
Click to expand...

It... can be performed by other monsters, though? Including those that **** up Barroth (like Diablos). Barroth's only feat was destroying the big rock formation in the environment, which other big monsters can do. Barroth, afaik, is just the weakest to do that.
 
I'm unsure whether we should class Barroths feat as an Outlier, there's not a huge number of anti feats. Sure, a lot of other feats are lower, but those just support the tier.

I'm fine with downscaling weaker monsters to 8-C however, since the calc is low enough and the lower monsters should easily be weak enough to get into the lower tier.
 
Okay. I trust your senses of judgement, and hope that you can together figure out what we should do here.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
It... can be performed by other monsters, though? Including those that **** up Barroth (like Diablos). Barroth's only feat was destroying the big rock formation in the environment, which other big monsters can do. Barroth, afaik, is just the weakest to do that.
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The other monsters doing the feat won’t matter (well it may matter for Diablos actually), but for the other monsters it’s not a different monsters have multiple high 8-C. It’s just the one feat being redone. Ignoring how only Barroth has shown to do it in canon, it isn’t multiple feats allowing for support the rating, it’s the outlier being done again in the same outlier way.

Also the 9-A feats are the exact opposite of support. They require great effort or straight up can kill the monsters they are anti feats at worse and meaningless at best.

Edit: Reread Bambu’s post. I can agree with the high 8-C scaling to Diablos level characters because they have the 8-C supporting feats. But barroth is one shot by the people that have the 8-C support and high 8-C feat while everyone else that scales to Barroth has dozens of 9-A, that either take effort or straight up kill them.
 
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It would absolutely matter since it means the feat is consistent. The fact that there are other Tier 8 feats as well solidifies it. It isn't an outlier if a plethora of monsters can do it.

Ehhhh no. Shattering big trees or wooden walls is a fairly casual event, literally single attacks achieve it dude.

Barroth is High 8-C, I agree low-tier monsters should be 8-C, anything less seems like purposefully ignoring feats at that point.
 
The supporting 8-C feats comes from monsters that instantly kill the Barroth. That doesn’t support the Barroth being high 8-C, he doesn’t scale to the support in order to have it prop him up. Also speaking of consistency when there are over two dozen 9-A feats with a few of them being meant to kill these monsters and some of the others taking massive difficulty.

“Shattering big trees or wooden walls is a fairly casual event, literally single attacks achieve it dude”

The two 9-A feats I calculated require multiple hits and great difficulty on the monsters part. The 9-A bomb barrels are meant to kill these monsters. Canons and ballista can kill or scare away these monsters. There are a multitude of 9-A feats that aren’t causal. Just because some are causal doesn’t mean all of them are.
 
Keeweed said:
The supporting 8-C feats comes from monsters that instantly kill the Barroth. That doesn’t support the Barroth being high 8-C, he doesn’t scale to the support in order to have it prop him up. Also speaking of consistency when there are over two dozen 9-A feats with a few of them being meant to kill these monsters and some of the others taking massive difficulty.
Click to expand...
Character A does High 8-C feat.

Characters B, C, and D do High 8-C feat as well, with their own 8-C feats to support it.

Characters B, C, and D are stronger than Character A and manage to, occasionally, take it down in a single combination of attacks.

How does this make Tier 8 inconsistent, even for Character A, given that characters below him/comparable to him/etc are still performing destruction feats on this level. The existence of lower feats doesn't invalidate the higher feats inherently dude. Good god.
 
These feat aren’t just there though. Many of them kill, wreck, or terrify the monsters.

The Diablos doesn’t kill Barroth through a specific combination of attacks. He plows straight through it and instantly kills it.

The support for character B and others do not scale to character A because the ones with the support kill Barroth instantly.

I’m going right now, I’ll be back.
 
Keeweed said:
These feat aren’t just there though. Many of them kill, wreck, or terrify the monsters.

The Diablos doesn’t kill Barroth through a specific combination of attacks. He plows straight through it and instantly kills it.

The support for character B and others do not scale to character A because the ones with the support kill Barroth instantly.

I’m going right now, I’ll be back.
Click to expand...
That isn't an argument against Character A being High 8-C though, given they also did the feat. That's the point I'm making. You can argue "but these higher tiers also have this feat and they one shot the guy!" but that isn't in fact an argument against the fact that Character A performed the very same feat. And that characters comparable to or inferior to Character A fairly regularly perform feats from 9-A to 8-C. These are what are known as "Support Feats".
 
I’m back for a minute. Barroth is never comparable to the characters with the 8-C feats. You keep trying to make the gap between these two not sound massive, like saying he is somewhat comparable or the Diablos kills him a specific way. But that isn’t the case; the Diablos instantly kills the Barroth and plows through the Anjanath which is stated to be able to stomp a Hunter that can fight the Barroth. Diablos and Barroth are in no way comparable.

They have support feats but that doesn’t apply to the Barroth, and the 9-A feats aren’t support in anyway they are anti feats. The reason they don’t support the Barroth is because he doesn’t scale to the characters with the supporting feat. They instantly kill him so why are we using their feats to prop him up when they kill him in a single hit. That’s not how support feats work. In order to scale to their support feats he would need to actually scale to them. Instead he scales to the characters with the 9-A feats. The over two dozen 9-A feats with the majority requiring great effort or being able to kill these guys.

Also if I do accept the high 8-C Barroth and 8-C low tier: what characters are you referring to as low tiers. If you are only referring to the great Jagras and great Jaggi level characters then I don’t agree. Way more monsters like Arzuros and monsters of his level also should be 8-C as well. Though that’s if high 8-C Barroth is usable, but it shouldn’t.

The support doesn’t scale to him, thus he doesn’t have supporting feats. The monsters that instantly kill him have the supporting feats.
 
It isn't massive lol.

Barroth survives turf wars with Diablos. So not only do they have quite literally the same exact feat, Diablos doesn't normally one-shot him. The only way Diablos one-shot him to my memory (outside of a wounded Barroth) is in its intro cinematic wherein it surprise attacked it from below while the Barroth was trapped. So what you're saying is just literally objectively false and I don't know what else to tell you. Christ.

High 8-C is fine for Barroth and all comparable low-tier monsters. If we want to split hairs and put things like Great Jagras and Kulu Yaku lower, that's fine and they can downscale to 8-C.
 
I’m going to take a small quiz soon, but I’ll just say this. While I personally disagree with Barroth being high 8-C, it’s clear neither of us are going to convince the other (and before you say anything I would argue against the last of your points but this comment makes that unnecessary and I know this would just drag on way too long if I did that), so I’ll go with the compromise (sorry if I came off as rude at any point).

Barroth being high 8-C while the low tiers below him will be 8-C.

Now we got to talk about small monsters because they scale to freezing feats and those scaling physically recent got nuked. The Hunter would also need a new key (beginning of world were they couldn’t even fight regular Jagras), and their high 8-C key would need to vary from 8-C to high 8-C as they progress through low tier.
 
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You didn't, I just don't understand your conclusions.

I don't think freezing feats have actually been successfully nuked, though a lot of people seem to be of the impression they were. Unless another thread was made without linking to the one I'm thinking of. That said, for them I do suspect 9-A to be something of an outlier since I can't think of any other feat they have to that order.

I dunno if I like the idea of giving Hunter a key for "they have no equipment and are wounded from their ship crashing, this lasts for 10 seconds". Second point I agree with though.
 
I finished my quiz.

Freezing feats only scale if they are A) stated to scale, or B) the characters physically might comes from the same source as their energy attacks. The small monsters fulfill neither of these requirements.

Nothing implies they were wounded at all. They literally go their first hunt the second they arrive to their main base and the handler never says they are hurt. Both the Hunter and handler also don’t behave or acted hurt, she specifically says that without weapons you just aren’t strong enough to fight them. So it would be like the Terriaran’s 9-B key (which currently literally only exist for 5 second in game before he becomes 8-B)
 
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Can you link me the thread? Again, last I checked on the thread I'd been following, no conclusion was actually reached, people just began applying the revisions.

Looks to me like they were knocked out from the crash/fall onto Zorah. Like they fall off, fade to black, fades back in to them laying face down on the ground and getting up. I just think the key is unjustified. Your Terraria comparison isn't really good, given it takes a minute to reliably kill King Slime. I dunno about you but I sure as **** don't go kill him with my copper (or wooden) sword.
 
“Your Terraria comparison isn't really good, given it takes a minute to reliably kill King Slime. I dunno about you but I sure as **** don't go kill him with my copper (or wooden) sword.”

The point of the comparison is that the Terraria’s 9-B key literally exist for seconds at best, yet we still have it as a key on their profile. Now it could be argued that their key also shouldn’t exist, but currently it does.

Also, somewhat unrelated, try to fight the King Slime with the molten sword and molten armor (but no health upgraded). It’s literally just as hard as trying to fight him with a copper sword because the King Slime still way too much damage and has way too much health. With a wooden bow you can kill him easily, which is when the Terrarian starts to scale (iron directly scale to the Eye of Cthulhu so you can’t get better equipment in King Slime tier)

Back on topic: The Hunter fell unconscious, but that doesn’t mean they were weaken. After they get up they never state or act hurt in literally any way. Heck the main game over in this game is getting beaten so badly that you fall unconscious yet your Hunter immediately is ready to fight when they are chucked back to camp. If they were weaken there would have been a statement or story event (like the handler says you are too weak to fight the Jagras right now, not that you don’t have a weapon).

The game clearly says the Hunter just isn’t strong enough to fight them.
 
Are we just talking about giving the Hunter a base physicals key? I'm also personally unsure if that's 100% necessary, as we almost never see the hunter fight like this, they're always equipped when they can be, so a key for a Hunter at base wouldn't be that useful, and I dunno if an unequipped Hunter even has legit feats, aside from being stated to be weaker than monsters, which would put him unquantifiably below them without other evidence.

As for the Ice stuff, I guess if it has been applied elsewhere, then it should be here. I also don't fully recollect a conclusion to it, but it has been applied in other areas, so I'm not opposed to removing it. Iirc there's other 9-A feats anyways.
 
“Iirc there's other 9-A feats anyways.”

Which ones. Literally none of the small monsters profiles mentioned any other feat. All of them link to monsters that freeze people. The freezing revisions have definitely already been applied, I can think of a crap ton of verses that have already been downgraded due to it.
 
And my point was that the Terrarian key does not in fact exist for seconds. Minutes, even, heavens me. Nor do I want to make a habit of making this a thread about Terraria.

One might argue that, given you're trying to argue that they're far weaker than they are immediately after getting to base following being knocked out, they were in fact "weakened".

I disagree with the existence of the key. You're trying to argue for the existence of a key in which no combat is ever done that lasted for as long as it took them to run to base. It has quite literally zero combat feats. I don't understand the point.

I'm fine with nuking 9-A small monsters, like I said, I personally can't think of any other feats that wouldn't net the lower bounds of 9-B.
 
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