monads (Xeelee) revision?

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Monads

found quotes about them from another forums.

\There was no place. There was no time. A human observer would have recognized nothing here: no mass, energy, or force. There was only a rolling, random froth whose fragmented geometry constantly changed. Even causality was a foolish dream.\

no place, time, causality.

\This chaotic cavalcade of possibilities, this place of nonbeing where whole universes clustered in reefs of foamy spindrift, was suffused by a light beyond light. But even in this cauldron of strangeness there was life. Even here there was mind.\

they are in non-being place, and can suffuse light beyond light

\In the seventeenth century the German mathematician Gottfried Leibniz had imagined that reality was constructed from pseudo-objects that owed their existence solely to their relation to each other. In his idea of the "monad," Leibniz had intuited something of the truth of the creatures who infested this domain.

They existed, they communicated, they enjoyed a richness of experience and community. And yet "they" didn't exist in themselves; it was only their relationships to each other that defined their own abstract entities.

No other form of life was possible in this fractured place'.'\

they exist, but didn't exist too, they're fully abstract (metaphysical?) entities beyond those. and cannot be defined except by their relation to themselvs

\The universe aged, as all things must; within, time grew impossibly long and space stretched impossibly thin. At last the fabric of the universe sighed and broke—and a bubble of a higher reality spontaneously emerged, a recurrence of the no-place where time and distance had no meaning. Just as the universe had once been spawned from chaos, so this droplet of chaos was now born from the failing stuff of the universe. Everything was cyclic.\

no-place, time, distance again.

\For the inhabitants of this new cosmos, it began with a singularity: a moment when time began, when space was born. But for the monads, as their chaotic Un-reality froze out once more into a rigid smoothness, the singularity was an end: for them, the story was already over. Encased in orderly, frozen spacetime, they would slumber through the long ages, until this universe in turn grew old and spawned new fragments of chaos, and they could wake again.\

if you're wondering, said universe created by them have 'stupendous amount of dimensions' (1-B).

so, are they tier 1-A or not?

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask Azathoth to evaluate this if you wish.

 

[FanofRPGs]

On-Topic: Sounds like 1-A, I agree with them being 1-A I guess. Though its possible they merely live on an infinitely higher dimensional plane than even the Xeelee (Hence the bubble part) and are the only ones on that plane. However the whole thing about unreality makes me think its more likely the Former.

Off-Topic: I have heard theories that the Monads were the Downstreamers, which would be cool.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

there's also this quote on SB :

\'It wasn't as if the Transcendence were meddling with alternate histories, spinning off different realities branching from decision points, from the life or death of an individual like Morag Poole. It was as if every possibility was being generated in some meta-reality, every human who might ever have lived under any contingency was to be born—and all these possibilities folded down, regardless of logic, into a single timeline.

"History will be meaningless," she murmured.

"The world will be a hall of mirrors, crowded out by the shining Restored. . . ." "All wrongs righted," Leropa declaimed.

"All injuries averted. All deaths eliminated. Every human potentiality actualized, the realization of entelechy!" Even cushioned by the Transcendence,

Alia felt bewildered. For a start it would be the ultimate in overpopulation. How could all those crowding Restored be fed, even find room to stand on Earth or the human planets of the future? But such problems were trivial for the Transcendence. The number of the Restored would be huge but finite—and any finite problem was trivial to a power of infinite capability. It could be done.'\


transcendence can make meta-reality by ignoring all logic. they also live in same metaphysical realm like monads too iirc (some kind of 'source' of config space/stupendeous amount of dimensions). and their goal was to reach Monads in power.

and yet they are still considered weaker than Xele and in turn, Monads. so Monads should comfortably 1-A if they are truly more powerful than transcendence.

Off-Topic: I have heard theories that the Monads were the Downstreamers, which would be cool.

yeah, I guess it would. and according to certain thread on SB, I think its implied that Downstreamers can make whole xeeleeverse (and in turn, Monads) infinite times over *shrudders* ... scary

 

[The_Everlasting]

This doesn't really sound 1-A.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

This doesn't really sound 1-A.

it certainly is missing explicit statement of 'dimensionless' or 'beyond dimensions'.

only that monads live on nothingverse and that they're fully metaphysical in nature.

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask Azathoth for input.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I personally don't think this sounds concrete enough to be 1-A.

I am getting a little confused for what often becomes the assumed standard for something being upgraded to 1-A, though. Falling back on a tried but true example of 40k's incarnation of the Chaos Gods, much of the same quotes have been repeatedly applied to them over the course of their existence (completely beyond by causality, transcendent of the concept of time and distance, existing only as abstractions and metaphor as opposed to physical things, higher level of existence/"unreality", etc.), and many, myself included, believe this alone is not sufficient proof for a 1-A ranking. Though not merely flowery language, as it does indeed have substance, said substance is not something concrete enough for what is required of 1-A.

On the other hand, there are things like the Cthulhu Mythos, where despite a massive chunk of the writing being almost nothing but purposefully dreamlike prose or guesses at the incomprehensible nature of reality, there is repeated, direct proof of Outerverse level tiers in multiple stories.

It definitely varies, but usually such a high tier is where we require things to be more clear cut. It's possible even some things actually rated 1-A have been done so too leniently when compared to others, but we generally try to keep such high, controversial levels as accurate as we possibly can, and thus often must be able to justify them beyond a shadow of a doubt. That is part of why I put together my Mythos blog, in the first place.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Shazam121]

There must be tons of profiles and franchises on here that would qualify for 1-A if this is all that was required.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, since the suggestion has been rejected, I think that I can close this thread.