MLP Revisions (Downgrade)

[BeautifulDuwanged]

This one will be very simple. I propose that we remove the 2-C scaling from keys that currently have it as a "Likely" rating, as well as the Pony of Shadows. The Elements of Harmony, Rainbow Power, Cosmos, Pony-Up Transformations, Gloriosa Daisy, and the Dazzlings all stay unaffected as they have vastly different feats.

Currently, most of our reasoning for Likely 2-C for My Little Pony characters that were previously 4-B (outside of the Pony of Shadows) is scaling to Luna. The issue here is that these feats blatantly are taken out of context.

"(Despite being notably inferior, she was powerful enough to briefly push and then hold back a blast from the Elements of Harmony as Nightmare Moon. She was also so powerful that the Pony of Shadows became completely obessed with the power she wielded, and was considered powerful enough to pose a challenge to the Pony of Shadows)"

"she was powerful enough to briefly push back and then hold back a blast"

The issue with this is that the Elements of Harmony are blatantly weaker and aren't at their full power. Stated here, the Elements of Harmony can only be used properly by those who represent the spirits of Harmony. For example: Sunset Shimmer, who we know is the Element of Redemption, wielded every other element but Redemption and Magic, was easily overpowered by Sci-Twi without taking advantage of her, despite Sunset outnumbering her with the Elements. You also can't make the case that she "held it off briefly" when it's evident that she's unable to be comparable to her, as Midnight Sparkle is such an overwhelming force that Sci-Twi knew that her power alone was way more powerful than the Pony-Up transformations, and Sci-Twi with the exact same power as Midnight Sparkle overwhelmed Gloriosa Daisy who was overpowering most of the Pony-Up transformations at once. Not only is it blatantly weaker, but Celestia also wasn't even using them to harm Nightmare Moon, but only to send her to the moon, so the fact alone that it's way weaker, to the point that five of the Elements struggle against a single Element when used by the proper user, shouldn't at all make it valid to scale the Elements to someone who was overpowered by it. Additionally, we know that the Elements can literally hold back their power to do something, to doing something as simple as destroying a magic rock, without affecting the person holding it, or destroying the Siren's projections and their gems, completely leaving the Dazzlings undamaged by the blast.

Of course, while we know that the scaling in general makes no sense, it also makes no sense to scale someone who's a lower threat when compared to Starlight Glimmer that is a direct equal to Twilight Sparkle who's Mean Six counterpart, the one who's simply a clone of Twilight that's more rude, explicitly brings up how no pony in Equestria could defeat her and the Mean Six with the Elements of Harmony, directly including the princesses in that statement. There's no reason to assume she's lying about this or even saying this to manipulate the others when she was trying to plan on using them in the first place, telling them to stop goofing around, and was trying her absolute hardest to overpower Chrysalis, which is the only reason she had no idea that they had triggered the Tree of Harmony. Since we know that Celestia was holding back the entire fight, the fact that she simply got up unharmed from an attack from Nightmare Moon alone should imply that she's already stronger than her without the Elements, and given how the scaling to the Elements with Nightmare Moon aren't even solid reasons in the first place as explained above, it's far more likely for this not to be applicable to scaling, if not just an outlier.

The rest of the scaling here to the Pony of Shadows is fine, but it marks one issue.

The Pony of Shadow's scaling is simply taken out of context and goes against his entire plan, plus how the feat itself wouldn't at all fit 2-C, but rather 3-A if it were even usable.

"Scaled from durability. A threat to all of Equestria after regaining his true power. Notably superior to the Princesses and Star Swirl the Bearded. Stated that he can reshape all realities"

"Withstood a blast from the combined effort of the Elements of Harmony, Star Swirl, the other Pillars and Sunburst. It required all the Elements, the Pillars, Starlight, and Sunburst to separate Stygian from the Shadow"

As well as what was concluded above, too, it did not "withstand a blast" of the Elements of Harmony. Like said above, the Elements can directly choose whether or not to target something (or to even damage it, given how they can literally turn people who are evidently weaker than it just into statues rather than killing them), and Starswirl himself literally states that they're not trying to attack or harm him, but rather push him back into limbo, which is directly confirmed by the Pony of Shadows to be what was happening. The Pony of Shadows doesn't even tank it, either, it's simply pushing him inside there, which is more so applicable to the Elements of Harmony with their lifting strength, something that just varies between users. The fact that the only way it was clearly feeling damage was when it was getting Stygian torn out from it's chest should alone point out that it's not even an attack, or at least, an attack that's supposed to harm it.

(As for being a "threat to all of Equestria", all this means is the planet, not the universe or anything, though this is just to settle confusion)

Now, for the "Reshape all of realities", he never once states he's going to reshape them. The closest he states is that he's going to overrun realities, which is clearly referring to his plan of eradicating light which is also brought into the show as well as comics. This was to make the worlds like him, an empty void, and cloaking it in shadows, something under his control. He never stated he was going to reshape these realities, he never stated he was going to change them, he never stated he was going to eradicate them, or anything on that premise. His plan was simply put, to eradicate all light in the universe and cover it in shadows. If it were to upgrade anything, that's going to be a blatant Galaxy level feat, but it clearly isn't Low Multiversal level, or even Universal+ level for that matter, according to our standards.

Also, as a sidenote, it didn't require the Elements of Harmony to even separate Stygian from the shadow, especially since he was overpowered by it, it was because Twilight needed help to pull him out (which Sunburst and Starswirl directly assist in doing, not just the Elements). As for other supporting feats that were brought up for the 2-C rating before, which at this point I can only think of this one, it should just be pointed out that the Pony of Shadows was doing his plan to all worlds overtime of which there are an infinite amount. This is blatantly overtime, given how it's literally just an infinite power for destruction, not literal infinite power, and given how it's referring to his plan of dumping out essentially all worlds and making them a void, which he clearly doesn't do at once, it's much more likely he's just explaining what he's going to do, which is essentially to destroy (not literally, just overrun them with shadows) an infinite amount of worlds. Not to mention that the Pony of Shadows brags about his power and was extremely obsessed with the power of the princesses, that it was more likely that he's not only exaggerating this a bit, but it's probably even more likely that he's using it as a scare tactic given the context of the scan.

That's it.

 

[sanicspood]

Following

 

[Ailamiona]

Following

 

[Lightbuster30]

The issue with this is that the Elements of Harmony are blatantly weaker and aren't at their full power.

Ok, and based on what?

Stated here, the Elements of Harmony can only be used properly by those who represent the spirits of Harmony.

The link implies the Elements of Harmony won't even work if you aren't qualified to use them. That same link also claims that only one power can defeat either Discord or Nightmare Moon, which is pretty blatantly untrue in regards to both characters. So, I'm gonna call the credibility of this card into question. Especially when; tmk, they were released years ago, and information may have changed.

For example: Sunset Shimmer, who we know is the Element of Redemption, wielded every other element but Redemption and Magic, was easily overpowered by Sci-Twi without taking advantage of her, despite Sunset outnumbering her with the Elements.

Midnight Sparkle absorbed magic from every bearer except magic. She also absorbed magic from the portal. It was Sunset Shimmer with the power of 5 Elements vs Midnight Sparkle with the same power + extra magic from the portal. This is in no way an example of the Elements being weaker in the hands of an unworthy bearer, and if we go by this logic, Midnight Sparkle should've been the one losing, seeing as she was so unworthy, she was corrupted into a demon like Sunset once was.

but Celestia also wasn't even using them to harm Nightmare Moon

I'd make the argument that even if the Elements of Harmony are being used for something like hax or non-lethal methods, there's still brute force behind it, otherwise, there wouldn't be a beam struggle in the first place. Not to mention the fact there are a few instances of hax being unable to be overpowered due to a difference in magical might.

Since we know that Celestia was holding back the entire fight

Running away from your sister, not wanting to fight them, does not mean you are holding back. Maybe she didn't want to fight Luna, but that doesn't mean she was holding back. If she held back with the Elements, Luna would've broken free from the Moon and traveled right back to Earth.

the fact that she simply got up unharmed from an attack from Nightmare Moon

Screaming in pain and getting ko-ed is not unharmed. She recovered relatively fast, I'll give her that, but she was blatantly injured by the attack. Just because she doesn't have scuff marks on her it doesn't suddenly mean she took it just fine. No attack that knocks you out; however temporary, is an attack that doesn't hurt you.

Additionally, we know that the Elements can literally hold back their power to do something, to doing something as simple as destroying a magic rock, without affecting the person holding it

The Dazzlings are a far better example than this given they were directly caught in the blast along with their gems. Here, the blast is hitting the stone, and the stone only. It's not going to hurt Wallflower because the rock is taking the hit for her.

or destroying the Siren's projections and their gems, completely leaving the Dazzlings undamaged by the blast.

The immediate aftermath shows the Dazzlings on their knees, with Aria Blaze and Adagio rubbing her heads with their hands like they have a headache. Yes, they were harmed by the blast, just not visually in terms of stuff like dirt or bruises. This one is harder to tell, but it also looks like they're twitching or shaking? I'm guessing from exhaustion? Either way, they definitely weren't unharmed or affected by the blast.

The Pony of Shadow's scaling is simply taken out of context and goes against his entire plan, plus how the feat itself wouldn't at all fit 2-C, but rather 3-A if it were even usable.

A lot of your problems with the statements about "reshaping" everything can be boiled down to one thing: Bad wording. Threat to all Equestria? Fine, remove it from the justifications. Reshaping everything? Just paraphrasing. Easily reworded.

None of the "all realities" stuff has anything to do with 2-C. We all know it ranges from some level of tier 4 (Direct feat of what he did to his own reality) to High 3-A at its peak due to statements and his plan to do the same to an infinite number of realites. It's not the meat of why he's tier 2. That is just more scaling to the Elements of Harmony.

Everything not relating to scaling to the Elements of Harmony boils down to the profile needing a fix-up in its wording. it's just outdated stuff that we forgot to remove.

who's Mean Six counterpart, the one who's simply a clone of Twilight that's more rude, explicitly brings up how no pony in Equestria could defeat her and the Mean Six with the Elements of Harmony, directly including the princesses in that statement. There's no reason to assume she's lying about this or even saying this to manipulate the others when she was trying to plan on using them in the first place,

Of course there is @Bold. She claims they can't beat Chrysalis without the Elements, then proceeds to nearly body her, tanking her blast with a shield for several seconds, before overpowering Chrysalis's beam and pushing her own blast to be inches from Chrysalis's face in the span of a second. Sure, she can claim she's unstoppable with the Elements, but we never see this play out given the numerous things in Equestria that could be used to fight them.

The point being, this is less an example of your point and more clone-Twilight just not knowing what she's talking about, underestimating her capabilities without the Elements of Harmony, and overestimating hers with them.

Like said above, the Elements can directly choose whether or not to target something (or to even damage it, given how they can literally turn people who are evidently weaker than it just into statues rather than killing them)

Or, alternatively, Discord being comparable, yet weaker to them in power combined with being able to regenerate means the Elements of Harmony simply can't kill him?

Starswirl himself literally states that they're not trying to attack or harm him

He says they're trying to banish him. He never says they're actively avoiding harming him, and his howl of pain upon being blasted directly by the rainbow beam suggests the beam is indeed harming him. Fitting given they thought banishing with the Elements would work better than overpowering, killing, ko-ing, or depowering him like they normally do with the Elements.

The Pony of Shadows doesn't even tank it, either, it's simply pushing him inside there, which is more so applicable to the Elements of Harmony with their lifting strength, something that just varies between users.

No one said he did, just that he took the blast, and it's clearly hurting him if he screams in pain the instant the beam touches him.

Also, while lifting strength can be applied to energy beams, it in no way invalidates someone taking or fighting against the beam because "It's just LS". No, no it's not. To my remembrance, the reason we normally separate lifting strength from AP is because of muscles. Different muscles are used to punch than to hold an object up. You'll find no such mechanics at play when it comes to a beam of pure energy, and thus trying to separate the two isn't the proper thing to do.

Also, as a sidenote, it didn't require the Elements of Harmony to even separate Stygian from the shadow

If we can't say for certain he wouldn't be free without the Elements, then it's best not to assume otherwise and take what we see on screen: Everyone being barely able to pull him out.

I will however admit, that there is one thing that needs reworking here, and that's the part of the profile saying it took the aid of the other Pillars to free Stygian. Rewatching the scene, shows only the Mane 6 activated their Elements, Twilight didn't even activate hers and was using her natural magic along with Star Swirl, Starlight, and Sunburst.

If it were to upgrade anything, that's going to be a blatant Galaxy level feat

No, not really. It's 4-A at best based on a calc for Necrozma absorbing all the light in its Universe.

This is blatantly overtime, given how it's literally just an infinite power for destruction, not literal infinite power

This comes off as arguing semantics. It comes off as the equivalent of calling the sky blue, then being corrected because you got the exact color of blue wrong. Yes, I understand the feat is supposed to happen over time, but unless either A: It takes place over an infinite amount of time. B: They have infinite speed, none of it is really possible without High 3-A potency.

Infinite time makes no sense as alternate Stygian shows signs of age (Mane grew longer) and zero of immortality or altered lifespan while as the Pony of Shadows, meaning he'd effectively die of old age before he ever saw his plan come to fruition. Infinite speed makes not much more sense since he'd be obsessed with how fast they are, instead of talking about how destructive they are.

Not to mention that the Pony of Shadows brags about his power and was extremely obsessed with the power of the princesses,

First off: I saw nothing in the Annual that indicates he brags about his power or overstretches his bounds with it.

Second: He was obsessed because he read Star Swirl's notes. He talks about how powerful they are because he's read about them from the guy who's lived with them and knows their capabilities.

If there's nothing to indicate the guy is bragging too much or too obsessed to be taken seriously, then I'm not interested in hearing it. Insanity and obsession doesn't make you stupid or wrong, and people need to start providing evidence of it affecting judgment/credibility when they try using this argument to dismiss a statement or feat.

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

Ok, and based on what?

Literally went over this on an entire paragraph.

The link implies the Elements of Harmony won't even work if you aren't qualified to use them.

No it doesn't, where did you get that? It states that only people who represent an element can use them, which we know that literally every usage of the EoH follow (With Celestia and Luna both logically having at least one element due to such, although unnamed, since they're noted to be one of the bearers of the Elements of a card in the exact same set) requires that.

That same link also claims that only one power can defeat either Discord or Nightmare Moon, which is pretty blatantly untrue in regards to both characters. So, I'm gonna call the credibility of this card into question. Especially when; tmk, they were released years ago, and information may have changed.

And the issue is that it isn't taking into account anyone getting stronger across the series (which is very blatant, with Twilight herself getting stronger during the Ending of the End, by the time other cards that explain Nightmare Moon as being lower than Starlight, a direct equal to Twilight at the time of the card being made) and rather it's referring specifically to that point in time. Not even Celestia could stop her without using the Elements of Harmony, and the only other case where she's otherwise been bested was through the Mane 6 literally using their skill against her and greater numbers. Discord? He's only been beaten by characters who didn't even exist at the time of the writing of the card, so they're obviously not taking into context them, either. Nothing contradicts the statement at the time of it's writing, and neither does that make it in an invalid source.

Also, you can't claim that "they got stronger which invalidates the required use", which is a fallacy in itself. The card is legit, it's referring to a specific point in time where characters didn't get stronger and were obviously bested by Discord and Nightmare Moon in power, and just because that's changed over the course of several seasons doesn't invalidate how the Elements are used when nothing at all contradicts it in comparison to the characters that the Elements of Harmony are still far stronger than.

Midnight Sparkle absorbed magic from every bearer except magic. She also absorbed magic from the portal. It was Sunset Shimmer with the power of 5 Elements vs Midnight Sparkle with the same power + extra magic from the portal. This is in no way an example of the Elements being weaker in the hands of an unworthy bearer, and if we go by this logic, Midnight Sparkle should've been the one losing, seeing as she was so unworthy, she was corrupted into a demon like Sunset once was.

And that absorption clearly didn't drain all of it, given how the power literally gets absorbed again, and I don't know where you got her "absorbing magic from the portal". That isn't even shown or stated, all she does is blow up the statue and results in the portal being opened, nothing implies that. And no, Sunset had the power of five Elements, but didn't represent any of them, when in comparison Sci-Twi literally only had the Element of Magic and a weaker power of the five elements when she evidently doesn't drain all of it while Sunset explicitly was using the power of friendship for their full power. The fact that Sci-Twi alone won the exchange would imply that the ones who actually represent the Elements are far more powerful than those who do not. Also, no, it isn't "if we go by this logic", because Sci-Twi isn't unworthy, she's literally a representation of the Spirit of Magic, when in comparison Shimmer is the representation of the Spirit of Redemption which she doesn't even use the magic for, which was the entire point of this claim, not "she was unworthy".

Also, Sunset didn't even lose because she was unworthy in the way you're trying to twist it. She lost because the Element supports whoever wields it, and she's not the Element of Magic, she's the Element of Redemption, which directly supports my argument than damage it.

I'd make the argument that even if the Elements of Harmony are being used for something like hax or non-lethal methods, there's still brute force behind it, otherwise, there wouldn't be a beam struggle in the first place. Not to mention the fact there are a few instances of hax being unable to be overpowered due to a difference in magical might.

And them being used for physical power destroys ponies who are on the exact same level as Nightmare Moon. The fact that Nightmare Moon is only able to hold back against an attack from the Elements which were clearly used for non-lethal, non-AP based attacks by someone who was trying not to harm the pony in question in the first place but rather banish her alone should disprove the scaling, especially when another non-lethal, non-AP based attack by the Mane 6 in their first use of the Elements of Harmony were directly able to overpower her.

Running away from your sister, not wanting to fight them, does not mean you are holding back. Maybe she didn't want to fight Luna, but that doesn't mean she was holding back. If she held back with the Elements, Luna would've broken free from the Moon and traveled right back to Earth.

Did you even watch the scan? She literally didn't want to fight her, which is echoed multiple times, which is the most blatant course of holding back. Also, no, Luna wouldn't have broken free from the Moon because the entire point of the argument is that she was holding back and able to overpower her, you need to prove that she would have broken the curse if she wasn't holding back, because I already explained why her explicitly not trying to fight Luna, or trying to overpower her in the first case is her holding back. Again, I'll repeat the point that the Elements literally overpowered her another time when they weren't actually holding back, but were still using it for non-lethal means, so claiming she could have broken free if they weren't holding back when Celestia who was explicitly trying not to harm her and make sure she wasn't damaged is not only going against the entire context of the scan and is literally baseless in comparison.

Screaming in pain and getting ko-ed is not unharmed. She recovered relatively fast, I'll give her that, but she was blatantly injured by the attack. Just because she doesn't have scuff marks on her it doesn't suddenly mean she took it just fine. No attack that knocks you out; however temporary, is an attack that doesn't hurt you.

Without ignoring the fact that in literally every case that a character who's hit by an attack is literally left with damage, which directly includes Celestia, such as seen when she got hit by an attack from Chrysalis, it makes zero sense to claim that she took damage when she literally isn't shown to have taken any damage, and was essentially unharmed outside of an attack that just strikes her down. That's the most blatant durability feat, and the fact she wasn't damaged by the attack or fall just proves that even further. And no, she wasn't KO-ed, she was knocked down, there's a massive difference between the two.

The Dazzlings are a far better example than this given they were directly caught in the blast along with their gems. Here, the blast is hitting the stone, and the stone only. It's not going to hurt Wallflower because the rock is taking the hit for her.

And that blast would literally hurt Wallflower because she's holding on the rock which is taking all of the energy at once. Holding an object that was shot by an attack and exploded into pieces (in your hand, mind you) would be an extension of your durability, especially when Wallflower was literally being pushed by the attack and was holding it back, which wouldn't make any sense if she's only supposed to be a human, unless the Elements of Harmony were obviously being far lower in power so they could only destroy the stone, which is more consistent than anything.

The immediate aftermath shows the Dazzlings on their knees, with Aria Blaze and Adagio rubbing her heads with their hands like they have a headache. Yes, they were harmed by the blast, just not visually in terms of stuff like dirt or bruises. This one is harder to tell, but it also looks like they're twitching or shaking? I'm guessing from exhaustion? Either way, they definitely weren't unharmed or affected by the blast.

They're on their knees because they were literally flying meters in the air and lost their transformation mid-air as they were hit by the blast and they lost their gems, thus negating the transformation. The fact that the only damage they even receive is them falling on the ground from meters in the air (and given how Sonata is literally holding where her gem would be) and given how they were repulsed by the music because it was the reverse of their own magic, and were hit by a soundwave that cleared off all of their music effects and also pushed them back, it's much more likely to be the fact given how we know that the Elements go against the Dazzlings entire physiology of their hypnotic, mind-controlling voice (as it protects those who represent elements from their singing, just not the sound itself, of course)

A lot of your problems with the statements about "reshaping" everything can be boiled down to one thing: Bad wording. Threat to all Equestria? Fine, remove it from the justifications. Reshaping everything? Just paraphrasing. Easily reworded.

None of the "all realities" stuff has anything to do with 2-C. We all know it ranges from some level of tier 4 (Direct feat of what he did to his own reality) to High 3-A at its peak due to statements and his plan to do the same to an infinite number of realites. It's not the meat of why he's tier 2. That is just more scaling to the Elements of Harmony.

Everything not relating to scaling to the Elements of Harmony boils down to the profile needing a fix-up in its wording. it's just outdated stuff that we forgot to remove.

It wasn't bad wording, it was literally twisting what was said there. Reshaping everything wasn't paraphrasing, it was literally the opposite of what the Pony of Shadows was doing, which is why I said it literally ignores the entire plot.

And it isn't even possibly High 3-A because he clearly isn't erasing all of the stars in every world all at once. He does it one at a time, not all at once.

And he doesn't even scale so

Of course there is @Bold. She claims they can't beat Chrysalis without the Elements, then proceeds to nearly body her, tanking her blast with a shield for several seconds, before overpowering Chrysalis's beam and pushing her own blast to be inches from Chrysalis's face in the span of a second. Sure, she can claim she's unstoppable with the Elements, but we never see this play out given the numerous things in Equestria that could be used to fight them.

The point being, this is less an example of your point and more clone-Twilight just not knowing what she's talking about, underestimating her capabilities without the Elements of Harmony, and overestimating hers with them.

And that doesn't at all disprove that she literally knows that they'll be the strongest, she doesn't even require them to defeat her, either. She was trying her hardest and overpowered Chrysalis, saying she was going to alternatively use the Elements doesn't suddenly make her statement wrong, especially when this is literally a clone of Twilight Sparkle, who has literally all the knowledge over the power of the Elements, regardless of being a clone.

This doesn't even disprove the point. All you're claiming is that she underestimated her power (which she never even stated or implied, idk where you got this from) when she was going to use it for it to be easier to defeat Chrysalis because it took a lot of effort to defeat her regardless, and she was going to be the most powerful being in Equestria, especially when Twilight herself literally knows everything about Equestria, from the power of the elements, to other worlds, to entire timelines and realities. This doesn't even disprove the fact that she was going to be stronger than the princesses, including Celestia, and obviously, Twilight, who's already > Nightmare Moon, which is the entire point of this argument, not that she was going to defeat Chrysalis with it or how she stated she was unstoppable, she states she was stronger than the Princesses with it and there's literally nothing going against that when the Elements are far stronger than them already.

Or, alternatively, Discord being comparable, yet weaker to them in power combined with being able to regenerate means the Elements of Harmony simply can't kill him?

The fact that he needs to regenerate alone disproves scaling. If his entire body were to be destroyed like your saying and he's far weaker to the point that he needs to regenerate from attacks, that alone debunks the entire premise of Tier 2 being applicable when we already know that Discord is > Nightmare Moon at this point in time. Hell, he's not even just higher, he's higher than Sombra who, after his regeneration from the destruction by the Crystal Heart, is already far stronger than BOTE Twilight and the entire Mane 6, who not only scale above the princesses and Starswirl at this point, but is also an equal to Starlight Glimmer who's even stronger than Nightmare Moon. The fact that there's an entire scaling chain above Nightmare Moon who's apparently supposed to scale to the Elements from a character who is defeated by the Elements themselves consistently without being able to counteract it, and literally needs to regenerate according to your own argument (with Devil's Advocate anyways)

He says they're trying to banish him. He never says they're actively avoiding harming him, and his howl of pain upon being blasted directly by the rainbow beam suggests the beam is indeed harming him. Fitting given they thought banishing with the Elements would work better than overpowering, killing, ko-ing, or depowering him like they normally do with the Elements.

If they're banishing him and know they can't 100% kill him because he's a literal void, why would they be trying to harm him? And no, he isn't howling in pain upon being blasted by the beam, he literally just hisses and holds onto the portal. He isn't harmed, at all, or takes any damage, he's just thrown back by the beam and being pushed into limbo, stating he was somehow taking damage by an attack that wasn't even harming or supposed to harm him, by incapacitating him and throwing him into limbo through pushing him. That's blatantly not an AP feat, or even durability, that's just him being to withstand the force of the Elements pushing him, not them literally attacking him physically.

No one said he did, just that he took the blast, and it's clearly hurting him if he screams in pain the instant the beam touches him.

Also, while lifting strength can be applied to energy beams, it in no way invalidates someone taking or fighting against the beam because "It's just LS". No, no it's not. To my remembrance, the reason we normally separate lifting strength from AP is because of muscles. Different muscles are used to punch than to hold an object up. You'll find no such mechanics at play when it comes to a beam of pure energy, and thus trying to separate the two isn't the proper thing to do.

And this is My Little Pony where magic literally has a lifting and striking strength that makes it harder to lift up heavier objects or hit objects with a set amount of force than their regular AP. You can't claim "we normally separate it by muscles" and use that as if it's the only way we do it, because even magic here is treated as having it's own LS, if not SS when we look at the Elements of Harmony not causing 2-C damage on every attack, but rather their destructive capacity is due to the range they limit it to be. This is the most blatant example of the beams having their own destructive capacity that can be limited, as well as their own lifting strength, if it weren't already obvious for magic in general.

If we can't say for certain he wouldn't be free without the Elements, then it's best not to assume otherwise and take what we see on screen: Everyone being barely able to pull him out.

I will however admit, that there is one thing that needs reworking here, and that's the part of the profile saying it took the aid of the other Pillars to free Stygian. Rewatching the scene, shows only the Mane 6 activated their Elements, Twilight didn't even activate hers and was using her natural magic along with Star Swirl, Starlight, and Sunburst.

Literally no one struggles to pull him out but Twilight who was already overpowered by the POS. Not Starlight, not Sunburst, not the Elements, the only person we actively see having a struggle with pulling him out and requiring help was Twilight.

The Pillars had amplified the Elements, so it was help irregardless, but the feat itself is invalidated by the fact that they weren't even required. No one was required to even overpower them, they were already using the Elements and suddenly used it to pull Stygian out because they found out he was in there.

This comes off as arguing semantics. It comes off as the equivalent of calling the sky blue, then being corrected because you got the exact color of blue wrong. Yes, I understand the feat is supposed to happen over time, but unless either A: It takes place over an infinite amount of time. B: They have infinite speed, none of it is really possible without High 3-A potency.

Infinite time makes no sense as alternate Stygian shows signs of age (Mane grew longer) and zero of immortality or altered lifespan while as the Pony of Shadows, meaning he'd effectively die of old age before he ever saw his plan come to fruition. Infinite speed makes not much more sense since he'd be obsessed with how fast they are, instead of talking about how destructive they are.

No it's not, because an infinite power for destruction is literally not the same as infinite power in the tiering system. And no, it's blatantly an overtime feat by the fact alone that he's making all inhabited worlds lose the light and be covered in darkness, you can't argue that "because they don't have infinite speed" or "they would die of old age" suddenly doesn't mean it's not overtime.

Where did you get his mane growing longer from? Also, the plan isn't committed by Stygian, it's by the Pony of Shadows, a completely separate being from him who simply possesses him as the Darkness, and the same character who's a living void, aka he obviously doesn't age, and he was using the Alicorn princesses, who obviously don't grow old.

Why would he be obsessed with their speed? While the current profiles don't have it, I could gladly upgrade them to Infinite speed if that's what you're asking here, but the entire point of his plan was that he was going to use them for his destruction because of how powerful they were. He wouldn't use them because "they're fast", because they're already highly fast in comparison to everyone else in-verse, and he isn't at all obsesed with it.

First off: I saw nothing in the Annual that indicates he brags about his power or overstretches his bounds with it.

Second: He was obsessed because he read Star Swirl's notes. He talks about how powerful they are because he's read about them from the guy who's lived with them and knows their capabilities.

If there's nothing to indicate the guy is bragging too much or too obsessed to be taken seriously, then I'm not interested in hearing it. Insanity and obsession doesn't make you stupid or wrong, and people need to start providing evidence of it affecting judgment/credibility when they try using this argument to dismiss a statement or feat.

Let's ignore the fact that Stygian and by extension the POS states how the darkness will not be stopped even as he was on the ropes and nearly defeated, or refuses to be fully defeated, or how the Pony of Shadows literally thinks his power is beyond anything else, or how he tries to induce fear into others, telling them they'll bow to him or telling him he'll kill them without truly doing so (and he literally gives up on attacking AU Stygian, so it's obvious this was also an empty threat). The fact that he consistently tries to induce fear by exaggerating his power or the power of the shadows, I don't see why he likely wouldn't do the same when he even goes on to explain how his plan is going to be crush their hope, too.

And yes, insanity and obsession literally makes you exaggerate the power of something, especially if you're addicted or really want to use it, which perfectly follows what the POS does.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Literally went over this on an entire paragraph.

Right, and I disagreed with the things said in said paragraph, hence the question.

No it doesn't, where did you get that? It states that only people who represent an element can use them

From the very card you're talking about. I interpreted what the card was saying to mean that a single user had to represent all of them to use them

And the issue is that it isn't taking into account anyone getting stronger across the series (which is very blatant, with Twilight herself getting stronger during the Ending of the End, by the time other cards that explain Nightmare Moon as being lower than Starlight, a direct equal to Twilight at the time of the card being made) and rather it's referring specifically to that point in time.

Not that I disagree with anyone growing in strength over the series, but those cards aren't saying Starlight is stronger than Nightmare Moon. They're comparing threat levels, with Starlight jokingly being referred to as a "threat to cutie marks".

Even ignoring the joke "Threat level" isn't something like a power level. Starlight being a greater threat doesn't automatically mean she's got more raw power to her name. Cozy Glow for instance is a massive threat to Equestria with her plans but is just a regular pegasus filly in terms of strength.

Not even Celestia could stop her without using the Elements of Harmony

Didn't you say Celestia was superior? If she were superior, then she should be able to stop her. I'm assuming you mean "Would not stop her" if she was reluctant.

Well, that aside, the card doesn't seem to specify when in 2013, but by that point characters like Chrysalis, Discord, and Sombra were already introduced. So, I'd still argue the card was inaccurate to say only the Elements of Harmony had the magic to stop her. If we're talking in terms of practicality, then I guess it's accurate. But if we're talking about the power to stop her, there were already characters who challenge that claim.

And that absorption clearly didn't drain all of it, given how the power literally gets absorbed again,

If not all of it was drained, then arguments can be made that Midnight Sparkle absorbed the majority of it, and Sunset was left to absorb less (On account of being absorbed already), but still enough to defeat her.

and I don't know where you got her "absorbing magic from the portal".

Sci-Twi absorbs magic from the portal right as Sunset tries to use it, rendering it inoperable. It is admittedly hard to tell if she's absorbing magic from Sunset or the portal, due to the magic having Sunset's color scheme and being drained from where she put her hand, but I also don't recall any bit about needing to have your own magic to use the portal, so I went with the portal losing its magic.

Maybe it was both? That saves me the trouble of figuring out why losing your Element keeps you from using a portal.

And them being used for physical power destroys ponies who are on the exact same level as Nightmare Moon.

Given Sombra can go intangible, it's hard to say whether or not he was disintegrated, or went intangible and fled. We see his body go jet black and get swept away by the blast, and next time we see him, he's in a shadow-like state. So, again, my take is that he went intangible to escape and hid until the time came to find and destroy the Tree of Harmony.

The fact that Nightmare Moon is only able to hold back against an attack from the Elements which were clearly used for non-lethal, non-AP based attacks

Don't care about lethality. It was still used for AP to both blast her to the Moon and to overpower her own blast. AP was indeed used, just not to kill.

Without ignoring the fact that in literally every case that a character who's hit by an attack is literally left with damage, which directly includes Celestia, such as seen when she got hit by an attack from Chrysalis,

So then why doesn't Starlight have a scorch mark on her face after losing a beam battle with Cozy Glow like Celestia does on her horn after losing to Chrysalis in S2? Or Twilight getting hit by Cozy. I know Starlight had one on her back after getting hit earlier in the episode, but it looks like it completely disappeared when it pans to her charging the villains alongside the princesses, so not sure how consistent that one is if it disappears fast.

It's not nearly as consistent as you claim it is, and frankly, I don't even care if it is. Common sense dictates that if you get hit so hard that you blackout for several seconds, you took damage. Internal damage exists. Not everything has to have a visual indicator of damage. Even in the comics, this isn't
100% consistent.

Did you even watch the scan?

Yes. I did. Me having a different interpretation of the scan doesn't mean I didn't watch it. I still stand by that not wanting to fight and fleeing does not mean you are holding yourself back. It's holding back in the sense that you aren't fighting. But it's not holding back in the sense that your durability and AP are lowered.

And no, she wasn't KO-ed, she was knocked down, there's a massive difference between the two

She laid there completely motionless for nearly half a minute. She couldn't stop herself from falling. Twilight thought she was seriously injured or worse. If she wasn't knocked out, she did a great job faking it. We arguably even see Celestia appear to wobble to the side for a quick second after standing up.

And that doesn't at all disprove that she literally knows that they'll be the strongest, she doesn't even require them to defeat her, either. She was trying her hardest and overpowered Chrysalis, saying she was going to alternatively use the Elements doesn't suddenly make her statement wrong,

Never meant to say it does. The point I was trying to make was it calls her credibility into question. Something to consider when reading into her claim about being the strongest with the Elements.

Again, I'll repeat the point that the Elements literally overpowered her another time when they weren't actually holding back,

If by overpowered, you mean "Sat there letting it happen instead of fighting it with her magic like last time", then sure.

(which she never even stated or implied, idk where you got this from)

From the video? I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to interpret "We need the Elements to take out Chrysalis" as. Right there she says she thinks she needs the Elements to beat Chrysalis, then proceeds to almost win against her. How is that not underestimating herself? Yet again, she thinks she needs the Elements, then almost wins without them.

And that blast would literally hurt Wallflower because she's holding on the rock which is taking all of the energy at once. Holding an object that was shot by an attack and exploded into pieces (in your hand, mind you) would be an extension of your durability,

Well, yeah, but wasn't she just taking the force of the rock exploding? I'm relatively certain the rock isn't going to explode with the same power as the beam.

They're on their knees because they were literally flying meters in the air and lost their transformation mid-air as they were hit by the blast and they lost their gems, thus negating the transformation.

They look barely above their own heights worth in the air, let alone multiple meters. Doubt that's gonna give them a headache. Depends on how they land I guess, but we don't see. I feel they'd be in different positions if they landed on their heads or in another similar way.

It wasn't bad wording, it was literally twisting what was said there.

Paraphrasing was all it was intended to be. The primary reason I worded it that way was because of this statement, which in my opinion was referring to the same power. Infinite power for destruction. Breaking worlds. Able to alter the fabric of reality. All this was taken together, and I wound up paraphrasing based on what I was reading, and the context I thought it was being used. I figured a little paraphrasing would be harmless, especially since it wouldn't even be the reason for tier 2 Stygian. But if it needs removal, then fine.

And it isn't even possibly High 3-A because he clearly isn't erasing all of the stars in every world all at once. He does it one at a time, not all at once.

High 3-A comes from statements of infinite power for destruction and affecting infinite amounts of light and spreading infinite amounts of Shadow if the plan succeeds. He'd be generating infinite shadow and devouring infinite amounts of light in a finite timeframe assuming he's not immortal and thus on a time limit.

No it's not, because an infinite power for destruction is literally not the same as infinite power in the tiering system.

How is it "not the same"? Based on what is it not the same? Where is this supposed difference even coming from? I need elaboration. This is why I thought you were arguing semantics. At first glance, there appears to be no difference, and I've seen nothing to explain said difference.

Where did you get his mane growing longer from? Also, the plan isn't committed by Stygian, it's by the Pony of Shadows, a completely separate being from him who simply possesses him as the Darkness, and the same character who's a living void, aka he obviously doesn't age, and he was using the Alicorn princesses, who obviously don't grow old.

It's pretty blatantly much longer than that of the Stygian we know. Hair growth is a sign of age happening. It's not a major sign, but it's still a sign that biological functions like age still affect Stygian as the Pony of Shadows.

How is he a living void? He's living shadow and darkness. Not pure void. I don't remember that anywhere. Anyways, this thing couldn't even do anything until it got Stygian as a host, so it stands to reason, that if Stygian were to die, the shadow would need to find a new host.

Literally no one struggles to pull him out but Twilight who was already overpowered by the POS. Not Starlight, not Sunburst, not the Elements, the only person we actively see having a struggle with pulling him out and requiring help was Twilight.

The look of strain on their faces suggests otherwise.

The Pillars had amplified the Elements, so it was help irregardless, but the feat itself is invalidated by the fact that they weren't even required. No one was required to even overpower them, they were already using the Elements and suddenly used it to pull Stygian out because they found out he was in there.

Once again, you do not know this, and so I'm taking what I saw in the episode as what I believe is the safer option.

They were using the Elements up until Twilight dived in, then stopped blasting in the middle of their conversation. Then, they reactivated the Elements to pull Stygian out.

Why would he be obsessed with their speed?

That's my whole point. If neither he nor the princess has literal infinite power, then there's no possible way for them to affect an infinite number of realities in a finite timeframe unless they have infinite speed. Which the Pony of Shadows did not focus on, rather their power.

And this is My Little Pony where magic literally has a lifting and striking strength that makes it harder to lift up heavier objects or hit objects with a set amount of force than their regular AP. You can't claim "we normally separate it by muscles" and use that as if it's the only way we do it, because even magic here is treated as having it's own LS,

A punch can exert both AP and lifting strength at the same time as demonstrated whenever you punch something small and knock it backward. Demonstrating lifting strength doesn't suddenly negate the kinetic energy that comes with the punch. Likewise, a beam can blast something back and still exert lifting strength and cause pain through AP, much like the Elements of Harmony did to the Pony of Shadows.

And no, he isn't howling in pain upon being blasted by the beam, he literally just hisses and holds onto the portal.

Didn't sound like a hiss when I watched it.

The fact that he needs to regenerate alone disproves scaling. If his entire body were to be destroyed like your saying

I never said he had to regenerate his entire body. We've never seen Discord take damage from being blasted by the Elements, so how much damage they;d cause to him with intent to harm is entirely unknown

And yes, insanity and obsession literally makes you exaggerate the power of something, especially if you're addicted or really want to use it, which perfectly follows what the POS does.

I know that, but I also know he read notes from a guy who's lived with them since fillyhood. If this were just stereotypical bravado that stemmed from nowhere, I'd be inclined to believe you, but it's not, and he has reason to believe what he believes about the sisters and their power.
.

 

[sanicspood]

Bump

 

[Lightbuster30]

Forget I said anything. This looks like it could go back and forth. My last response took three hours to make, my first response took even longer, and I don't have the energy to make another argument on the subject. If you have any disagreements, just take this as a concession.

With that said, I would still be interested in branching the discussion off to talk about the viability of their mindscape feats. I don't think I ever finished the last discussion I had with them.

 

[sanicspood]

Bump

 

[Jibz]

Ah MLP fans making heartfelt essay's arguing with eachother, really brings me back. Nostalgia kicking me hard.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

With all due respect to both sides, any arguments of "this character did/didn't SEEM that hurt by x attack" are arguments that seem to be forgetting this was a TV-Y show. They would never focus that heavily on someone being injured, or put any detail on their injuries.

All that being said, I disagree with the OP.

 

[sanicspood]

u disagree with that massive bible cuz of them not showing there they’re always hurt a lot?


And for the record, they do

 

[Kyozen]

I agree with the downgrade, it's based.

Disagree = Brony

 

[sanicspood]

yea i agree with the downgrade too

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

u disagree with that massive bible cuz of them not showing there they’re always hurt a lot?


And for the record, they do

Aside from extreme examples like Sombra, not really, no. Besides, that was the point that I felt had no leg to stand on, so I wanted to focus in it and point it out. I agree with Lightbuster's counterarguments more than the OPs reasonings behind the downgrades.

There's enough evidence for 2C including ones that weren't accepted for "reasons" that I'm going to disagree with the downgrades. If something that absolutely debunks it shows up, I'll be surprised, sure, but willing to hear it out. For now though, I just don't see it

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

Aside from extreme examples like Sombra, not really, no. Besides, that was the point that I felt had no leg to stand on, so I wanted to focus in it and point it out. I agree with Lightbuster's counterarguments more than the OPs reasonings behind the downgrades.

There's enough evidence for 2C including ones that weren't accepted for "reasons" that I'm going to disagree with the downgrades. If something that absolutely debunks it shows up, I'll be surprised, sure, but willing to hear it out. For now though, I just don't see it

Because they took no damage? It's literally a baseless argument other than "it's a kid show" which is completely false if you've paid any attention to the scans that have been sent.

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

Forget I said anything. This looks like it could go back and forth. My last response took three hours to make, my first response took even longer, and I don't have the energy to make another argument on the subject. If you have any disagreements, just take this as a concession.

With that said, I would still be interested in branching the discussion off to talk about the viability of their mindscape feats. I don't think I ever finished the last discussion I had with them.

Would you prefer if I made my response to your second response regardless, or do you just want me to completely ignore it?

 

[sanicspood]

bump

 

[sanicspood]

bump

 

[sanicspood]

bump

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

Bump.

 

[Jibz]

Was waiting for more opposition, but since there isn't any ig ill agree with the thread. You'll deffo need to get some staff approval for this though

 

[Urshani]

I agree

 

[Coolboy6]

The Pony of Shadows was clearly grunting in pain from that blast, even if it was meant to push him in. mostly everything said here feels like head cannon tbh. Disagree with this FRA.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm neutral but overall think LightBuster is making more sense here, especially with the "Over time" implication since dividing infinite power within a finite timeframe is still infinite power.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

I personally think Lightbuster makes the most sense. Disagree for reasons above.

 

[Antvasima]

I have a hard time making up my mind here, as both Lightbuster30 and BeautifulDuwanged seem to make good points.

@The_2nd_Existential_Seed @Firestorm808 @Js250476 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @EMagoIorSouI @CinnabarManx421 @Robot972 @Phoenks @Coolboy6 @Tllmbrg @Psychomaster35

What do you think?

 

[Jibz]

How on earth can you agree with a person who literally stopped asserting their rhetoric after a light discussion.

 

[DivineAura44]

How on earth can you agree with a person who literally stopped asserting their rhetoric after a light discussion.

Literally went over this on an entire paragraph.

Right, and I disagreed with the things said in said paragraph, hence the question.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
No it doesn't, where did you get that? It states that only people who represent an element can use them

From the very card you're talking about. I interpreted what the card was saying to mean that a single user had to represent all of them to use them

BeautifulDuwanged said:
And the issue is that it isn't taking into account anyone getting stronger across the series (which is very blatant, with Twilight herself getting stronger during the Ending of the End, by the time other cards that explain Nightmare Moon as being lower than Starlight, a direct equal to Twilight at the time of the card being made) and rather it's referring specifically to that point in time.

Not that I disagree with anyone growing in strength over the series, but those cards aren't saying Starlight is stronger than Nightmare Moon. They're comparing threat levels, with Starlight jokingly being referred to as a "threat to cutie marks".

Even ignoring the joke "Threat level" isn't something like a power level. Starlight being a greater threat doesn't automatically mean she's got more raw power to her name. Cozy Glow for instance is a massive threat to Equestria with her plans but is just a regular pegasus filly in terms of strength.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
Not even Celestia could stop her without using the Elements of Harmony

Didn't you say Celestia was superior? If she were superior, then she should be able to stop her. I'm assuming you mean "Would not stop her" if she was reluctant.

Well, that aside, the card doesn't seem to specify when in 2013, but by that point characters like Chrysalis, Discord, and Sombra were already introduced. So, I'd still argue the card was inaccurate to say only the Elements of Harmony had the magic to stop her. If we're talking in terms of practicality, then I guess it's accurate. But if we're talking about the power to stop her, there were already characters who challenge that claim.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
And that absorption clearly didn't drain all of it, given how the power literally gets absorbed again,

If not all of it was drained, then arguments can be made that Midnight Sparkle absorbed the majority of it, and Sunset was left to absorb less (On account of being absorbed already), but still enough to defeat her.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
and I don't know where you got her "absorbing magic from the portal".

Sci-Twi absorbs magic from the portal right as Sunset tries to use it, rendering it inoperable. It is admittedly hard to tell if she's absorbing magic from Sunset or the portal, due to the magic having Sunset's color scheme and being drained from where she put her hand, but I also don't recall any bit about needing to have your own magic to use the portal, so I went with the portal losing its magic.

Maybe it was both? That saves me the trouble of figuring out why losing your Element keeps you from using a portal.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
And them being used for physical power destroys ponies who are on the exact same level as Nightmare Moon.

Given Sombra can go intangible, it's hard to say whether or not he was disintegrated, or went intangible and fled. We see his body go jet black and get swept away by the blast, and next time we see him, he's in a shadow-like state. So, again, my take is that he went intangible to escape and hid until the time came to find and destroy the Tree of Harmony.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
The fact that Nightmare Moon is only able to hold back against an attack from the Elements which were clearly used for non-lethal, non-AP based attacks

Don't care about lethality. It was still used for AP to both blast her to the Moon and to overpower her own blast. AP was indeed used, just not to kill.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
Without ignoring the fact that in literally every case that a character who's hit by an attack is literally left with damage, which directly includes Celestia, such as seen when she got hit by an attack from Chrysalis,

So then why doesn't Starlight have a scorch mark on her face after losing a beam battle with Cozy Glow like Celestia does on her horn after losing to Chrysalis in S2? Or Twilight getting hit by Cozy. I know Starlight had one on her back after getting hit earlier in the episode, but it looks like it completely disappeared when it pans to her charging the villains alongside the princesses, so not sure how consistent that one is if it disappears fast.

It's not nearly as consistent as you claim it is, and frankly, I don't even care if it is. Common sense dictates that if you get hit so hard that you blackout for several seconds, you took damage. Internal damage exists. Not everything has to have a visual indicator of damage. Even in the comics, this isn't
100% consistent.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
Did you even watch the scan?

Yes. I did. Me having a different interpretation of the scan doesn't mean I didn't watch it. I still stand by that not wanting to fight and fleeing does not mean you are holding yourself back. It's holding back in the sense that you aren't fighting. But it's not holding back in the sense that your durability and AP are lowered.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
And no, she wasn't KO-ed, she was knocked down, there's a massive difference between the two

She laid there completely motionless for nearly half a minute. She couldn't stop herself from falling. Twilight thought she was seriously injured or worse. If she wasn't knocked out, she did a great job faking it. We arguably even see Celestia appear to wobble to the side for a quick second after standing up.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
And that doesn't at all disprove that she literally knows that they'll be the strongest, she doesn't even require them to defeat her, either. She was trying her hardest and overpowered Chrysalis, saying she was going to alternatively use the Elements doesn't suddenly make her statement wrong,

Never meant to say it does. The point I was trying to make was it calls her credibility into question. Something to consider when reading into her claim about being the strongest with the Elements.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
Again, I'll repeat the point that the Elements literally overpowered her another time when they weren't actually holding back,

If by overpowered, you mean "Sat there letting it happen instead of fighting it with her magic like last time", then sure.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
(which she never even stated or implied, idk where you got this from)

From the video? I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to interpret "We need the Elements to take out Chrysalis" as. Right there she says she thinks she needs the Elements to beat Chrysalis, then proceeds to almost win against her. How is that not underestimating herself? Yet again, she thinks she needs the Elements, then almost wins without them.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
And that blast would literally hurt Wallflower because she's holding on the rock which is taking all of the energy at once. Holding an object that was shot by an attack and exploded into pieces (in your hand, mind you) would be an extension of your durability,

Well, yeah, but wasn't she just taking the force of the rock exploding? I'm relatively certain the rock isn't going to explode with the same power as the beam.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
They're on their knees because they were literally flying meters in the air and lost their transformation mid-air as they were hit by the blast and they lost their gems, thus negating the transformation.

They look barely above their own heights worth in the air, let alone multiple meters. Doubt that's gonna give them a headache. Depends on how they land I guess, but we don't see. I feel they'd be in different positions if they landed on their heads or in another similar way.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
It wasn't bad wording, it was literally twisting what was said there.

Paraphrasing was all it was intended to be. The primary reason I worded it that way was because of this statement, which in my opinion was referring to the same power. Infinite power for destruction. Breaking worlds. Able to alter the fabric of reality. All this was taken together, and I wound up paraphrasing based on what I was reading, and the context I thought it was being used. I figured a little paraphrasing would be harmless, especially since it wouldn't even be the reason for tier 2 Stygian. But if it needs removal, then fine.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
And it isn't even possibly High 3-A because he clearly isn't erasing all of the stars in every world all at once. He does it one at a time, not all at once.

High 3-A comes from statements of infinite power for destruction and affecting infinite amounts of light and spreading infinite amounts of Shadow if the plan succeeds. He'd be generating infinite shadow and devouring infinite amounts of light in a finite timeframe assuming he's not immortal and thus on a time limit.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
No it's not, because an infinite power for destruction is literally not the same as infinite power in the tiering system.

How is it "not the same"? Based on what is it not the same? Where is this supposed difference even coming from? I need elaboration. This is why I thought you were arguing semantics. At first glance, there appears to be no difference, and I've seen nothing to explain said difference.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
Where did you get his mane growing longer from? Also, the plan isn't committed by Stygian, it's by the Pony of Shadows, a completely separate being from him who simply possesses him as the Darkness, and the same character who's a living void, aka he obviously doesn't age, and he was using the Alicorn princesses, who obviously don't grow old.

It's pretty blatantly much longer than that of the Stygian we know. Hair growth is a sign of age happening. It's not a major sign, but it's still a sign that biological functions like age still affect Stygian as the Pony of Shadows.

How is he a living void? He's living shadow and darkness. Not pure void. I don't remember that anywhere. Anyways, this thing couldn't even do anything until it got Stygian as a host, so it stands to reason, that if Stygian were to die, the shadow would need to find a new host.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
Literally no one struggles to pull him out but Twilight who was already overpowered by the POS. Not Starlight, not Sunburst, not the Elements, the only person we actively see having a struggle with pulling him out and requiring help was Twilight.

The look of strain on their faces suggests otherwise.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
The Pillars had amplified the Elements, so it was help irregardless, but the feat itself is invalidated by the fact that they weren't even required. No one was required to even overpower them, they were already using the Elements and suddenly used it to pull Stygian out because they found out he was in there.

Once again, you do not know this, and so I'm taking what I saw in the episode as what I believe is the safer option.

They were using the Elements up until Twilight dived in, then stopped blasting in the middle of their conversation. Then, they reactivated the Elements to pull Stygian out.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
Why would he be obsessed with their speed?

That's my whole point. If neither he nor the princess has literal infinite power, then there's no possible way for them to affect an infinite number of realities in a finite timeframe unless they have infinite speed. Which the Pony of Shadows did not focus on, rather their power.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
And this is My Little Pony where magic literally has a lifting and striking strength that makes it harder to lift up heavier objects or hit objects with a set amount of force than their regular AP. You can't claim "we normally separate it by muscles" and use that as if it's the only way we do it, because even magic here is treated as having it's own LS,

A punch can exert both AP and lifting strength at the same time as demonstrated whenever you punch something small and knock it backward. Demonstrating lifting strength doesn't suddenly negate the kinetic energy that comes with the punch. Likewise, a beam can blast something back and still exert lifting strength and cause pain through AP, much like the Elements of Harmony did to the Pony of Shadows.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
And no, he isn't howling in pain upon being blasted by the beam, he literally just hisses and holds onto the portal.

Didn't sound like a hiss when I watched it.

BeautifulDuwanged said:
The fact that he needs to regenerate alone disproves scaling. If his entire body were to be destroyed like your saying

I never said he had to regenerate his entire body. We've never seen Discord take damage from being blasted by the Elements, so how much damage they;d cause to him with intent to harm is entirely unknown

BeautifulDuwanged said:
And yes, insanity and obsession literally makes you exaggerate the power of something, especially if you're addicted or really want to use it, which perfectly follows what the POS does.

I know that, but I also know he read notes from a guy who's lived with them since fillyhood. If this were just stereotypical bravado that stemmed from nowhere, I'd be inclined to believe you, but it's not, and he has reason to believe what he believes about the sisters and their power.
.

Bro this is not light smh

 

[Jibz]

been used to reading essays in school so its lowkey light in comparison.

 

[Coolboy6]

I dont want to get involved much, but the pony of shadows was still harmed by that blast since pushing someone is a form of harming. Like I said before, disagree FRA

 

[DivineAura44]

been used to reading essays in school so its lowkey light in comparison.

We all have but Lightbuster30 might see this as low priority compared to other stuff they have going on. In which case not wanting to read and respond to essays of wording is completely understandable.

 

[Antvasima]

@Andytrenom @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack

Would any of you be willing to help us evaluate this discussion please? It is not very long, so I think that it is probably manageable.

 

[Firestorm808]

I have a hard time making up my mind here, as both Lightbuster30 and BeautifulDuwanged seem to make good points.

@The_2nd_Existential_Seed @Firestorm808 @Js250476 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @EMagoIorSouI @CinnabarManx421 @Robot972 @Phoenks @Coolboy6 @Tllmbrg @Psychomaster35

What do you think?

I'll go over this when I am available.

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

I dont want to get involved much, but the pony of shadows was still harmed by that blast since pushing someone is a form of harming. Like I said before, disagree FRA

He literally wasn't grunting in pain. He was being pushed back by the attack, as we see here, only hissing in response and trying to hold himself together. As brought up above, in comparison, he literally screams in pain when he's separated from Stygian, which is clearly far more different than his hissing and is definitely him screaming in pain, whilst he doesn't at all scream when being pushed by the Elements. Also, no, the Elements directly change their power outage to make sure they don't destroy beings that they don't want to, again referring to Wallflower Blush being able to withstand being in the vicinity of the Elements' blast and the Dazzling's human forms (which are rated as 9-B on the wiki) directly tanking a blast from the Elements, and given how they're literally not trying to kill the Pony of Shadows here, merely trying to get him to get stuck back inside of limbo, as we explicitly see Starswirl give the command of opening that portal, never to attack him or anything, but just do that and push him in, I severely doubt that this is him hissing in pain, especially with no indications and how he's also casually shrugging it off unlike when Stygian's being pulled out from him.

I'm neutral but overall think LightBuster is making more sense here, especially with the "Over time" implication since dividing infinite power within a finite timeframe is still infinite power.

Nothing here was talking about infinite power within a finite timeframe, especially when it's never destroying an infinite amount of universes at one point, as I pointed out. The feat that the Pony of Shadows was going to do is a 3-C feat that was explained directly by Iris and shown in her flashbacks to be him going to each world directly to destroy all sources of light in it by using Celestia and Luna. Daybreaker supports this, the Pony of Shadows explains it vaguely but essentially never claims otherwise, and it's simply stated to be that. This isn't an infinite power across a finite timeframe, nothing suggests that outside of there being infinite realities that exist, and the fact that the entire concept of him doing all of this at one time makes zero sense, let alone it being something that grants infinite power, simply because two characters who he literally used as parts of his plan share the same story, the Pony of Shadows going to each individual world to destroy the light there, never doing this all at once but explicitly one at a time.

 

[Coolboy6]

He literally wasn't grunting in pain. He was being pushed back by the attack, as we see here, only hissing in response and trying to hold himself together. As brought up above, in comparison, he literally screams in pain when he's separated from Stygian, which is clearly far more different than his hissing and is definitely him screaming in pain, whilst he doesn't at all scream when being pushed by the Elements. Also, no, the Elements directly change their power outage to make sure they don't destroy beings that they don't want to, again referring to Wallflower Blush being able to withstand being in the vicinity of the Elements' blast and the Dazzling's human forms (which are rated as 9-B on the wiki) directly tanking a blast from the Elements, and given how they're literally not trying to kill the Pony of Shadows here, merely trying to get him to get stuck back inside of limbo, as we explicitly see Starswirl give the command of opening that portal, never to attack him or anything, but just do that and push him in, I severely doubt that this is him hissing in pain, especially with no indications and how he's also casually shrugging it off unlike when Stygian's being pulled out from him.

Pushing is still a form of harming someone like I said before. He was still struggling against a 2-C blast which would still make him 2-C. The Elements changing its power output doesn’t seem to be stated anywhere and it seems like headcannon tbh.

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

Pushing is still a form of harming someone like I said before. He was still struggling against a 2-C blast which would still make him 2-C. The Elements changing its power output doesn’t seem to be stated anywhere and it seems like headcannon tbh.

That isn't how AP works.

"It is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with.

Hence Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general not comparable and should be evaluated separately."

- Lifting Strength​

You can't claim that a feat of someone pushing someone is going to apply to their AP when that's blatantly not what's happening. The fact that the Pony of Shadows is overpowered once he is weakened and can't hold onto the portal, not his durability or anything, implies that it's nothing related to AP, especially since the only thing supporting your claim is how he's being pushed, which isn't AP, as also described on the lifting strength page.

Regardless, that's not a head canon at all. It's shown, it's consistently brought up, and there's literally nothing contradicting this idea. You can't claim that all abilities shown are headcanon just because "they aren't stated anywhere", yet they're shown to do this consistently and there's nothing backing the idea of it being a headcanon outside of your own interpretation of the Elements of Harmony's AP.

 

[Coolboy6]

That isn't how AP works.

"It is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with.

Hence Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general not comparable and should be evaluated separately."

Energy beams can have both AP and LS features

- Lifting Strength​

You can't claim that a feat of someone pushing someone is going to apply to their AP when that's blatantly not what's happening. The fact that the Pony of Shadows is overpowered once he is weakened and can't hold onto the portal, not his durability or anything, implies that it's nothing related to AP, especially since the only thing supporting your claim is how he's being pushed, which isn't AP, as also described on the lifting strength page.

Regardless, that's not a head canon at all. It's shown, it's consistently brought up, and there's literally nothing contradicting this idea. You can't claim that all abilities shown are headcanon just because "they aren't stated anywhere", yet they're shown to do this consistently and there's nothing backing the idea of it being a headcanon outside of your own interpretation of the Elements of Harmony's AP.

Brought up where? Because it just sounds dumb, why would one of the most powerful artifacts in Equestria need to downplay itself just to do a certain task?

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

Energy beams can have both AP and LS features

Cool? This one is blatantly stated to only be pushing him back, nothing at all related to AP.

Brought up where? Because it just sounds dumb, why would one of the most powerful artifacts in Equestria need to downplay itself just to do a certain task?

It literally isn't downplaying it's power, it's doing what the users need it to, whether that's fixing reality or destroying a pebble, it's not weakening itself, it's just using a lesser extension of it. Better yet, it's literally just an artifact to preserve order, it's not downplaying anything, it's just doing what it needs to do that.

 

[Coolboy6]

Cool? This one is blatantly stated to only be pushing him back, nothing at all related to AP.

So? That’s not how energy beams work, energy blasts in fiction can push those back with forcefields or send them flying because of their KE. Shadow pony was using all his strength to hold that blast back, the same amount of energy needed to use a full power magic blast in that exact verse. Pushing can cause physical damage to people’s bodies in certain cases if you push or shove that person hard enough.

It literally isn't downplaying it's power, it's doing what the users need it to, whether that's fixing reality or destroying a pebble, it's not weakening itself, it's just using a lesser extension of it. Better yet, it's literally just an artifact to preserve order, it's not downplaying anything, it's just doing what it needs to do that.

You still haven’t said where it is stated that the elements changes its power output depending on what it’s destroying