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Minor 40k Revisions

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

VS Battles
Retired VSB Bureaucrat
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Since as of late, it seems Primarchs, daemons, and everyone's second cousin twice removed in the Warhammer 40k setting have been demonstrating and/or scaling to Tier 4 feats, I figured this was a good time to bring a minor revision like this up.

I'll direct your attention to this page. Khârn is an example of a character whose 5-A lower-end is accounted for, while still making note of the 4-B feats he quite probably scales to. However, there are other characters whose pages are listed as "At least 5-A, possibly higher" due to the 4-B end being more uncertain. Some of these characters should, by this point, likely be changed to "At least 5-A, possibly 4-B", the same as someone like Khârn or Saint Celestine, as I believe by now, their scaling is definitely solid enough for 4-B to be a strong possibility.

The profiles that should likely receive the change from "At least 5-A, possibly higher" to "At least 5-A, possibly 4-B" are:

  • Iskandar Khayo. Firstly, we know that at some point he defeated Zarakynel, who is on a similar level to top-tier greater daemons such as these. He also inflicted minor damage to and took hits from a perfect clone of Horus Lupercal, and was supposedly helpful in Abaddon's quest to forcefully recruit all the Daemon Primarchs, such as Magnus the Red and Mortario.
  • Ahzek Ahrima. Stated (by himself) to be at least comparable, if not stronger than, Iskandar Khayon. Khayon himself does not deny this, only clarifying that he could not ensure Ahriman was the only one who fit this bill. He also fought against the forces of Eldrad Ulthra, and handily defeated Yvraine in their first encounter. Considered one of the absolute most powerful psykers in the setting who isn't Alpha Plus level.
  • Sigismund. Stated to be one of the strongest Space Marines to ever live, and among the only ones ever able to remotely compete with Warmaster Abaddon the Despoiler. This was also done while Sigismund was old and weakened, and after Abaddon had demonstrated the ability to casually slaughter a perfect clone of Horus Lupercal. Khayon believed that no one in the Black Legion, save for Abaddon himself, could actually defeat Sigismund in his prime, and only the absolute best could match or defeat him in his old age.
Those three would be the most obvious, at the moment.
 
@Azzy: I actually noted this on your wall on your other message from me about this and told Matt about it only for him to undo my edits of this so....yeah.
 
@Matt

For which one? The only one I'm still unsure about is Sigismund, since he's technically still supposed to be a normal Astartes, whereas Khayon and Ahriman have actual explanations. And, in Ahriman's case, literal years of scaling.
 
@Azzy

Now do we mean normal Astartes in a way like Captain America is supposed to be Peak Human or...?
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
@Matt
For which one? The only one I'm still unsure about is Sigismund, since he's technically still supposed to be a normal Astartes, whereas Khayon and Ahriman have actual explanations. And, in Ahriman's case, literal years of scaling.
Click to expand...
Sigismund, a normal Space Marine (Albeit, the strongest one who ever lived, most likely), is his old age, fighting the ******* Warmaster of Chaos, who wielded the Talon of Horus... Is ridiculous.
 
@Ever

Exactly like that, yes. Though this is from a Chapter Master/Hero Astartes standpoint, as Sigismund is portrayed as near Primarch level, which seems weird even in context.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Sigismund, a normal Space Marine (Albeit, the strongest one who ever lived, most likely), is his old age, fighting the ******* Warmaster of Chaos, who wielded the Talon of Horus... Is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
This is also the one I'm unsure about, as the feat is direct, but the scaling doesn't make any sense, especially considering what Abaddon had done in the previous book.
 
Well in my opinion, i can see Ahriman and Khayon getting a Possibly 4-B but no more than that. Otherwise, i really would like to ask on what the point even is to ever mention the feats they have on their "likely higher" key.

Like....what would be the point of them even now with the current tiering of the top tiers of WH here then?
 
Franky, if Sigismund has several feats that put him on that level, and the only main argument against it is "It's absud", I don't really see why he can't be that.
 
This is like, Sigismund's ONLY feat. His best other feat is beating Pre-Heresy Khârn, who is much weaker than Chaos Champion Kharn.

Commander Dante has a fuckton more feats, and even he was one-shot by a being who is only a shard of Sanguinius.
 
I am also unsure with 4-B Khayon. There are what? Three lines with 0 context about how the fight with Magnus went.
 
@Matt

Well I just said several because the block of text in the OP had multiple subjects, lol.
 
The Everlasting said:
Franky, if Sigismund has several feats that put him on that level, and the only main argument against it is "It's absud", I don't really see why he can't be that.
Click to expand...
It's not that "It's absurd" just because, it's absurd because it ***** up the scaling hard. I also find Celestine and Khârn fighting Abaddon hard to swallow, but at least Abaddon was weakened in the first match, and Khârn was being ragdolled in the second.
 
All lines about Magnus just say "he made him kneel". Unless there's something in the final book of the trilogy, that's probably going to remain without context.

We know he directly helped Abaddon fight at least Mortarion, since he was apparently the one who came closest to beating the two of them with his supernatural diseases, but that's about it.

We know he actually overpowered and unmade Zarakynel. That's the most direct one.
 
Skipping the multiple pages of setup.


"He did not wait for a reply. He held out his hand for his sword. Zaidu moved forwards, picking it up and placing it in Abaddon's hand before backing away. Sigismund mirrored the gesture in reverse, handing the Sword of the High Marshals to one of his huscarls, who moved away with the relic held in reverence. Sigismund drew the Black Sword in its place, raising it to salute Abaddon with the same cold formality he had displayed unceasingly thus far.

Abaddon raised his blade, and Amurael flinched, not of his own accord but through the exertion of my will. Instinct ran through me with quicksilver breath. So fierce was my ache to witness the fight that I had to restrain myself from taking hold of my brother's body and stepping forwards in his place.

Sigismund had the advantage of reach with his long blade; Abaddon held the advantage of strength in his Terminator plate. My lord would fight with weighty disadvantage of the Talon upon his balancing hand, but it gave him a devastating weapon if the duel allowed him a chance to use it. Sigismund would be faster in his ornate power armour, but there was no way of knowing how much age had slowed him."


"Abaddon and Sigismund's blades met for the first time, a skidding clash that sprayed sparks across both warriors. I thought it might have been a signal for both sides to charge, for us to butcher Sigismund's elite while our lords battled, yet there was no such uproar.

I felt the acidic squirt of adrenal narcotics pumping through Amurael's bloodstream, injected by his armour in response to his battle hunger. He flinched and winced with the crashing blows of the warlords' blades, and he was not the only one to follow the fight with such ferocious focus, doubtless imagining he wielded a sword in Abaddon's place.

The crashing blades brought a storm's light to that place of austere darkness. Lightning sheeted across the cracked marble walls and illuminated the stained glass windows, bathing the cold statue faces of Black Templars heroes in flashes of even colder illumination. Those stone worthies looked on, only marginally more stoic than the watching warriors of both black-clad hosts.

In the years after this duel, those of us fortunate enough to witness it have spoken in terms both trite and profound of how it played out. One of Zaidu's preferred claims is that Abaddon led Sigismund the entire time, that our lord laughed all the while as he toyed with the ancient Black Templar before delivering the death blow. This is the tale related by the Shrieking Masquerade's various warbands, and one that Telemachon has never contradicted.

Amurael once described it in terms I preferred, saying that Sigismund was ice and precision, while Abaddon was passion and fire. That bore the ring of truth from what I saw through Amurael's own eyes.

Sigismund knew he would die. Even if he defeated Abaddon, he and his warriors were outnumbered four to one. His ship still rolled in the void, still burned within as our boarding parties swept through its veins like venom in its bloodstream, but if the battle for the Eternal Crusader was still in doubt, there was no such mystery surrounding the endgame within this chamber. Even if fate or a miracle of faith spared Sigismund, the rage of forty bolters and blades would not.

And Sigismund's age did show. It slowed him, the finest duelist ever to wear ceramite, to a pace that was no faster than Abaddon in his hulking Terminator plate. He lacked Ezekyle's enhanced strength in that great suit of armour, and age and weariness robbed him even further. He was already decorated in the blood of my slain brothers; this was far from his first battle of the day. Were his old hearts straining? Would they fail him now, and burst in his proud chest? Is that how the greatest of Space Marine legends was fated to end?

I found the signs of Sigismund's age unconscionably tragic - a fact Ezekyle later mocked me for, calling it a symptom of my 'maudlin Tizcan nature'. He remarked that I should have paid more heed to the fact that the Black Knight, at a thousand natural years of age, could still have stood toe to toe and matched blade to blade with practically any warrior in the Nine Legions. Age had slowed Sigismund, but all it had done was slow him to a level with the rest of us.

I did pay heed, of course. The outcome of the duel was never in question, but that did not mean I was blind to Sigismund's consumate skill. I had never seen him fight before. I doubted anyone but the Nine Legions' highest elite could face him and live even now, and at his best he would have rivalled any being that drew breath.

Sigismund's artistry with a sword is best summed up by the way he moved. Duellists will parry and deflect to keep themselves alive if they have the skill to do so, and if they lack that skill - or simply rely on strength to win battles - then they will lay into a fight with a longer, two-handed blade, trusting in its weight and power to overcome an enemy's defences. Sigismund did neither of these. I never saw him simply parry a blow, for every move he made blended defence into attack. He somehow deflected Abaddon's strikes as an after-effect of making his own attacks.

Even Telemachon, who is possibly the most gifted bladesman I have ever seen, will parry his opponent's blows. He does it with an effortlessness that borders on inattention, something practically beneath him that he performs on instinct, but he still does it. Sigismund attacked, attacked, attacked, and he somehow deflected every blow while doing so. Aggression boiled beneath every motion.

Yet Sigismund was wearing down minute by minute. Air sawed through the grate of his clenched teeth. Abaddon roared and spat and laid into him with great sweeping blows from both blade and Talon, never tiring, never slowing. Sigismund, in contrast, grew evermore conservative with his movements. He was tiring beneath the pressure of Abaddon's rage, the spraying sparks of abused power fields now showed his stern features set in a rictus of effort. In so many battles, whether they are between two souls or armies, a moment arises when the balance will shift inexorably one way over the other: when one shield wall begins to buckle; when one territory begins to fall; when one warship's shields fail or its engines give out; when one fighter makes a cursory error or begins to weaken.

I saw it happen in that duel. I saw Sigismund take a step back, just a single step, but his first of the battle so far. Abaddon's lightning-lit features turned cruel and confident with bitter mirth, and -

Iskandar!

I opened my eyes. It took me several seconds to detach my senses from Amurael's, so strong was the temptation to dive back into his mind and watch the duel between two warlords."

  • Aftermath. This occurs after Abaddon is impaled with a sword right while dealing his deathblow to Sigismund.
"I did not ask Abaddon to tell me. I reached into his thoughts then, tentatively at first in case he rebuffed my presence.

Then I closed my eyes, and I saw.

The Black Knight, fallen and ripped apart. His Sword Brethren gone or dead, I did not know which. Red staining Sigismund's tabard; red decorating the dec beneath and around him; red in Abaddon's eyes, misting his sight.

Blood. So much blood.

Here at the last, he looked every one of his years, with time's lines cracking his face. He looked upwards at the chamber's ornate ceiling, his eyes lifted as if in reverence to the Master of Mankind upon His throne of gold.

Sigismund's hand trembled, still twitching, seeking his fallen sword.

'No,' Abaddon murmured with brotherly gentleness, through the running of his blood and the heaving of his chest. 'No. It's over. Sleep now, it's a failure you have earned.'.

The knight's fingertips scraped the hilt of the blade. So very close, yet he lacked the strength to move even that far. His face was the bloodless blue of the newly dead, yet still he breathed.

'Sigismund,' Abaddon said, through lips darkened by his own life-blood, 'this claw has killed two primarchs. It wounded the Emperor unto death. I would have spared it the taste of your life, as well. If you could only see what I have seen.'.

As I stared through Abaddon's eyes, I confess I expected the triteness of some knightly oath, or a final murmur in the Emperor's name. Instead, the ruined thing that had been First Captain of the Imperial Fists and High Marshal of the Black Templars spoke through a mouthful of blood, committing the last of his life to biting off each word, ensuring he spoke each one in shivering, sanguine clarity.

'You will die as your weakling father died. Soulless. Honourless. Weeping. Ashamed.'.

Sigismund's last word was also his last breath. It sighed out of his mouth, taking his soul with it."
 
Short summary:

  • Sigismund and Abaddon meet in battle. While Sigismund is just as exceptional of a warrior as ever, age has clearly taken a toll on him.
  • Khayon realizes that even if Sigismund were to kill Abaddon, he would not have the strength left to survive onslaught from the rest of the Black Legion, who vastly outnumber the Templars. Sigismund knows this, as well.
  • The two seem evenly matched for most of the fight, yet there comes a point that Sigismund can no longer keep up his flawless performance. Abaddon goes in for the kill.
  • Khayon awakens from control of Amurael's body, missing the last few moments of the fight.
  • Abaddon eventually returns, but has been severely wounded.
  • Months later, Khayon looks into Abaddon's mind to see how the last seconds of the fight played out.
  • As it turns out, when Sigismund realized this would be where he met his end, instead of shying away, he drove his sword through Abaddon's chest right as the Warmaster landed the killing blow with his Talon. Sigismund's wounds are lethal, but Abaddon manages to avoid this fate.
  • While dying, Sigismund uses the last moments of his life to make sure Abaddon realizes that in the end, he will fall just as his father did, and die just as much of an honourless traitor.
 
Honestly, this is very, very weird.

>Treats Abaddon's durability as being enhanced by Terminator Armour as if it were a normal Terminator Armour, while Sigismund was faster because of less armour

>States that Sigismund could be killed by 40 Bolters

However, it does not say that only Abaddon could have won. It says that the Nine Traitor Legions' Highest Elites could have fought him.
 
"I doubted anyone but the Nine Legions' highest elite could face him and live even now"

Referring to old Sigismund, as opposed to in his prime.

I'm also pretty sure the "forty bolters and blades" is referring to the number of remaining Black Legionnaires as opposed to literally just 40 bolters.
 
I wouldn't say Amurael and the others there with Abaddon were normal Legionnaires. The ones directly present were some of Abaddon's top warriors, and Amurael was even one of the Ezekarion. They were like Abaddon's analogue to Sigismund's elite.

There was also the fact Sigismund wasn't exactly in good health, and even assuming the best possible outcome in which he actually were to beat Abaddon, he would almost certainly be near death.
 
OK.

I still think it is very uncertain to scale Sigismund to Abaddon. He did pierce him with his sword, yes, but that was due to him accepting his death and thrusting himself into the enemy's blow to get his own hit.

Khayon also repeatedly states that the outcome was known from the start.
 
I definitely don't think Sigismund should fully scale to Abaddon. I just think the fight should actually be acknowledged in his tier. Hence why like the othe two, I only think it should be a "possibly". Even old man Sigismund did better against Abaddon than someone like post-Chaos Kharn did.
 
I have to ask this: What exactly would be wrong in having a "possibly" tier in there anyways? It's not like it's gonna be bad like Kharn's since nobody bitches at that one.

I could see major uncertainty for Khayon and i guess Sigis here, but Ahriman honestly doesn't seem that bad to have. Either that or, as i keep bringing this up, makes me wonder what the point of having them on their pages is for in the first place...
 
Speaking of Ahriman... And by extension, Typhus and Lucius:

I really don't believe that the other three Chaos Champions fully scale to Khârn. Khârn is an absolute monster who contains a hilarious number of ridiculous feats, and basically kills anyone he comes in contact with.

Meanwhile, Ahriman has no 4-B feats. Yvraine I really need to read her book to get an actual grasp of her power. I think Khayon and Ahriman being 4-B is really iffy.

Typhus and Lucius are even worse. They have little to no feats to speak of.
 
Because to me? This seems really weird to have it on there yet the way it is suggests they COULD be higher than 5-A.

If anything, i really question the use of adding such description to their pages if all they're ever gonna get is just "likely higher" for it. Ahriman especially so.
 
I don't think Typhus and Lucius should fully scale to Kharn, either. Especially not Lucius. I would definitely not give them a "possibly 4-B", as it stands right now. They're far better as just "At least 5-A" (for Typhus, at least. I'm not as familiar with what Lucius has done, as of late).

Ahriman on the other hand is a different story. He makes an absolute joke out of Yvraine, who has what is at minimum a low Tier 4 feat in the same book, competes with Eldrad's crew, managing to pretty much null his psychic power disadvantage with a little bit of prep, and also showed the ability to make himself more than powerful enough to overwhelm the Yncarne (who had mere hours prior slaughtered several high-tier KoS within the Eye of Terror) with his sheer knowledge on the mechanics of the Webway and its inner-workings. There's then of course him being directly compared to Khayon within the same series in which Khayon kicks the shit out of the the strongest (to my knowledge) named daemon of Slaanesh.
 
By the way, I distinctively remember Khayon stating that while Ahriman is his better in versatility, he is the superior in raw power.
 
Nevermind, he says that in relation to Sargon.

I never let any of these questions reach my tongue. For all of his gentility and compliance, Sargon unnerved me. He felt like a weapon held against the back of my neck. More than once I caught him casting similar glances to me and I knew he harboured similar tensions. Walking next to him was like standing near a distorted reflection. Though I had discipline and training in wielding the Art, my greatest asset had always been my unrestrained power. Sargon, conversely, appeared to be a precise and exacting practitioner, relying on absolute control in substitution for whatever he lacked in raw force.
 
So what's the decision here then?

I said it before and i'll say it again, what is the point in having the feats of the "likely higher" tier if it's not ever gonna get a definite tier due to how vague and stuff it is like? Do you guys even understand my question about this cause it's seriously concerning to the point that i even wonder what it serves other than being an outlier for them or just some feats or whatever that's never gonna get anything.

Best you guys should be doing is just take them off or something and just have the ones they can be really scaled from.
 
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