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Minecraft - Downgrades Continued

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KieranH10

KieranH10

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Aight, thought I'd make this because this thread was decided to just remove the Tier 7 and that the rest of the subject should be continued in another thread.
And the last thread pretty much died and nobody else is likely gonna make this soooo...

Basically we now need to decide what to do with the verse.
I believe that the current consensus is to simply revert it to what it was before the Tier 7 stuff was even applied. (Most mobs are 8-C, etc). But we still need to discuss what to do with Bosses (Should they be 8-C, High 8-C, or 8-B).
 
This would be a lot clearer if the feats were listed in the OP.

Minecraft has 2 main 8-B feats rn, to my knowledge. Charged Creeper explosions and Wither Spawn Explosions. There's also Creeper explosions and the old Ender Dragon ramming calc which are both High 8-C. I'll go over each calc in turn, with arguments for and against.

Charged Creeper Explosions (21.33 tons): There are two metrics that can be used to determine whether mobs should scale to this - Minecraft 'lore' and physical feats, and game damage scaling (less reliable).
For the former, Charged Creeper explosions are unable to destroy Netherite blocks, under any circumstance. However, the Ender Dragon is capable of destroying these blocks (multiple at once, in fact), as is the Wither Boss with its ramming attack and blue skulls. Some would argue that as the Ender Dragon can't destroy Obsidian or Crying Obsidian, that it is game mechanics for it to destroy blocks of similar strength. I disagree. For the former, the Ender Dragon is unable to destroy blocks present in the End mainland, including Iron Bars (but it can destroy Iron Blocks), End Stone (but it can destroy End Stone Bricks), etc. Also, there's evidence that Obby, Crying Obby and Respawn Anchors are more dense than Netherite - none of these blocks can be pushed by a piston. Finally, the Wither can destroy Obby anyways, so yeah.
For the latter, both the Wither and Ender Dragon can comfortably survive multiple charged Creeper explosions. Charged Creepers deal 85 damage according to the wiki at their max explosion power. This is reduced further when considering that the Ender Dragon takes around 1/4 of damage not dealt to its head, and that it is physically impossible for a Charged Creeper to deal the theoretical max damage. Seriously, I've tested similar stuff, the Creepers dont deal max damage even at point-blank range. For them to do max damage they'd have to be inside of the mob when exploding, which is, well, wrong. Which is one problem with using mc wiki values for scaling. But yeah, both the Wither + EDragon can take multiple booms and comparable mobs can harm them.
tl;dr 1: No matter which metric you use, boss mobs should scale to Charged Creepers.

Wither Boss Explosions (38.5 tons): I mean, this obviously scales to the Wither in some capacity. The Dragon and Wither can survive multiple of these in theory, and the Wither performs this feat like 3 times in Bedrock Edition afaik. I'd say this is the upper limit of what the EDragon and Wither can do in terms of feats - they are above Charged Creeper explosions and below Wither explosions.

Ender Dragon Ramming (like 4.5 tons or something): I don't really care either way, the calc is based somewhat on assumptions about how many blocks the Ender Dragon can destroy at once, but it is a feat. The blocks are destroyed through physical force, no entities interact the same way with the EDragon proving that it's not some weird passive EE or BFR armour or something, the fact that it was originally intended to just be a workaround for weird collisions is irrelevant as Minecraft has been through countless updates since then, including direct revamps to the EDragon fight itself.

Mobs scaling to Bosses: Nah. This relied heavily on game mechanics, but in terms of feats it would be ridiculous to scale mobs to boss tiers when most of them get fodderized by High 8-C Creeper explosions. There's also an argument that it's stated Endermen are a threat to late-game Players in the Mobestiary, but I honestly don't see that interpretation. If you read both the EDragon and Endermen pages it implies moreso that the Endermen are only a threat during the EDragon boss fight due to their large numbers (which is true in-game, I mean you would have needed to kill around a dozen Endermen to get to the End anyway). And Endermen are decently above other fodder too.

Proposed Scaling: Creepers, Charged Creepers and Wither's birth attack should scale to their own feats, obviously. The Wither and Ender Dragon's regular attacks should scale above the Charged Creeper's feat but below the Wither Explosion (21.33 < them < 38.5). Iron Golems can fight a Wither to about half health, so they backscale, and Ravagers are comparable to Iron Golems so they scale too. Some strong mobs, like Piglin Brutes, Elder Guardians and Shulkers (durability-wise) scale to Creepers/High 8-C (3.53 tons). Not keen on Elder Guardians scaling to bosses just because it has a boss bar in one version, or Endermen and Hoglins scaling to Creepers as they barely survive the explosions. The Ghast has an 8-C feat (0.31 tons) that it can scale to (AP only), mobs that don't scale to the Ghast would instead upscale from the Silverfish (> 0.016 tons).

tl;dr 2: Scaling goes 38.5 tons < Wither + EDragon < Iron Golem <= 21.33 tons, strong mobs = Creepers = 3.53 tons, other mobs either scale to 0.31 tons or are >= 0.016 tons.

This is probably going to be the most motivated I am to speak on this topic for like the fourth time, so I hope that covers everything.
 
GyroNutz said:
This would be a lot clearer if the feats were listed in the OP.

Minecraft has 2 main 8-B feats rn, to my knowledge. Charged Creeper explosions and Wither Spawn Explosions. There's also Creeper explosions and the old Ender Dragon ramming calc which are both High 8-C. I'll go over each calc in turn, with arguments for and against.

Charged Creeper Explosions (21.33 tons): There are two metrics that can be used to determine whether mobs should scale to this - Minecraft 'lore' and physical feats, and game damage scaling (less reliable).
For the former, Charged Creeper explosions are unable to destroy Netherite blocks, under any circumstance. However, the Ender Dragon is capable of destroying these blocks (multiple at once, in fact), as is the Wither Boss with its ramming attack and blue skulls. Some would argue that as the Ender Dragon can't destroy Obsidian or Crying Obsidian, that it is game mechanics for it to destroy blocks of similar strength. I disagree. For the former, the Ender Dragon is unable to destroy blocks present in the End mainland, including Iron Bars (but it can destroy Iron Blocks), End Stone (but it can destroy End Stone Bricks), etc. Also, there's evidence that Obby, Crying Obby and Respawn Anchors are more dense than Netherite - none of these blocks can be pushed by a piston. Finally, the Wither can destroy Obby anyways, so yeah.
For the latter, both the Wither and Ender Dragon can comfortably survive multiple charged Creeper explosions. Charged Creepers deal 85 damage according to the wiki at their max explosion power. This is reduced further when considering that the Ender Dragon takes around 1/4 of damage not dealt to its head, and that it is physically impossible for a Charged Creeper to deal the theoretical max damage. Seriously, I've tested similar stuff, the Creepers dont deal max damage even at point-blank range. For them to do max damage they'd have to be inside of the mob when exploding, which is, well, wrong. Which is one problem with using mc wiki values for scaling. But yeah, both the Wither + EDragon can take multiple booms and comparable mobs can harm them.
tl;dr 1: No matter which metric you use, boss mobs should scale to Charged Creepers.

Wither Boss Explosions (38.5 tons): I mean, this obviously scales to the Wither in some capacity. The Dragon and Wither can survive multiple of these in theory, and the Wither performs this feat like 3 times in Bedrock Edition afaik. I'd say this is the upper limit of what the EDragon and Wither can do in terms of feats - they are above Charged Creeper explosions and below Wither explosions.

Ender Dragon Ramming (like 4.5 tons or something): I don't really care either way, the calc is based somewhat on assumptions about how many blocks the Ender Dragon can destroy at once, but it is a feat. The blocks are destroyed through physical force, no entities interact the same way with the EDragon proving that it's not some weird passive EE or BFR armour or something, the fact that it was originally intended to just be a workaround for weird collisions is irrelevant as Minecraft has been through countless updates since then, including direct revamps to the EDragon fight itself.

Mobs scaling to Bosses: Nah. This relied heavily on game mechanics, but in terms of feats it would be ridiculous to scale mobs to boss tiers when most of them get fodderized by High 8-C Creeper explosions. There's also an argument that it's stated Endermen are a threat to late-game Players in the Mobestiary, but I honestly don't see that interpretation. If you read both the EDragon and Endermen pages it implies moreso that the Endermen are only a threat during the EDragon boss fight due to their large numbers (which is true in-game, I mean you would have needed to kill around a dozen Endermen to get to the End anyway). And Endermen are decently above other fodder too.

Proposed Scaling: Creepers, Charged Creepers and Wither's birth attack should scale to their own feats, obviously. The Wither and Ender Dragon's regular attacks should scale above the Charged Creeper's feat but below the Wither Explosion (21.33 < them < 38.5). Iron Golems can fight a Wither to about half health, so they backscale, and Ravagers are comparable to Iron Golems so they scale too. Some strong mobs, like Piglin Brutes, Elder Guardians and Shulkers (durability-wise) scale to Creepers/High 8-C (3.53 tons). Not keen on Elder Guardians scaling to bosses just because it has a boss bar in one version, or Endermen and Hoglins scaling to Creepers as they barely survive the explosions. The Ghast has an 8-C feat (0.31 tons) that it can scale to (AP only), mobs that don't scale to the Ghast would instead upscale from the Silverfish (> 0.016 tons).

tl;dr 2: Scaling goes 38.5 tons < Wither + EDragon < Iron Golem <= 21.33 tons, strong mobs = Creepers = 3.53 tons, other mobs either scale to 0.31 tons or are >= 0.016 tons.

This is probably going to be the most motivated I am to speak on this topic for like the fourth time, so I hope that covers everything.
Click to expand...
This sounds good
 
GyroNutz said:
I don't think we ever had creative mode steve? But the profile covers Survival mode since that's considered to be the ""canon"" mode.
Click to expand...
We had, actually. At least I remember seeing something like it, with said profile being... I think 5-A, possibly High 3-A, from scaling to Command Blocks?

In any case, I really like Gyro's proposal, and am all up to it.

A question, though: Would we consider fully-equipped mobs (Such as, say, a zombie who spawned with compelte armor) on the same tier as bosses endgame players, as they technically have the same weaponry? Also, where would the Warden be? I guess boss tier, but I dunno.

The Illagers also need to be thought about, I feel like.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
We had, actually. At least I remember seeing something like it, with said profile being... I think 5-A, possibly High 3-A, from scaling to Command Blocks?
Click to expand...
That was story mode profiles, where commands blocks were considered canon + used.

EliminatorVenom said:
A question, though: Would we consider fully-equipped mobs (Such as, say, a zombie who spawned with compelte armor) on the same tier as bosses endgame players, as they technically have the same weaponry? Also, where would the Warden be? I guess boss tier, but I dunno.
Click to expand...
Fully equipped mobs can scale to fully equipped Steve, at least in terms of durability. Warden is probably boss tier but we can worry about that when deep dark is finally a thing.

EliminatorVenom said:
The Illagers also need to be thought about, I feel like.
Click to expand...
They could probably be boss tier (8-B) in large enough groups since it's now strongly implied that they can overpower Iron Golems in groups (some outposts have trapped Iron Golems in them). Evokers and Witches should just be unknown tho since their only attack(s) ignore durability.
 
GyroNutz said:
That was story mode profiles, where commands blocks were considered canon + used.
Click to expand...
Okay, I just had the biggest Mandela effect. Went on to look into the Steve page logs, and I couldn't find any which had creative blocks, but I swear we had Steve with creative mode once. Spooky.
GyroNutz said:
Fully equipped mobs can scale to fully equipped Steve, at least in terms of durability. Warden is probably boss tier but we can worry about that when deep dark is finally a thing.


They could probably be boss tier (8-B) in large enough groups since it's now strongly implied that they can overpower Iron Golems in groups (some outposts have trapped Iron Golems in them). Evokers and Witches should just be unknown tho since their only attack(s) ignore durability.
Click to expand...
Okie-dokie.

Also, I dunno if a proper CRT for it should be made, but I have plenty of Minecraft Dungeons material that could potentially result in upgrades. Would it be fine to share 'em here?
 
Gonna try and get this thread finished sometime within the decade.

From what I can gather the current consensus seems to be to just place the verse back where it was before the initial upgrades were put in place. Those being
  • Regular Mobs are 8-C (Scaling to Ghast Fireballs)
  • Stronger mobs (Endermen and base Creepers) are High 8-C
  • Bosses are 8-B

This could be a simple rollback job if it's decided.
 
Okay, so this is a very incomplete list of feats as I still haven't seen anything about the updates after the ice biome expansion pack, and I haven't seen the entire list of items. But here are some of the feats of Minecraft Dungeons:
And there are other miscellanea feat and some smaller ones I haven't cited, like the Hero tanking point-blank TNT and Creeper explosions without much trouble.

I'm a bit iffy on scaling Minecraft Dungeons stuff to the base game, and while I think it is fine to scale the base game stuff to Dungeons, that might not be the case as well. And, again, I'll note that there's still plenty more feats out there, those are the most important ones that I have saved atm.
 
I don't believe we should scale the base game to Minecraft Dungeons, and I'm personally iffy scaling it the other way too. I believe both are treated differently and generally run off of their own rules.

I believe they should be treated separately personally.
 
Bumpo.

Should we apply this then? Nobody seems to disagree.
This is a pretty simple job, the profiles simply need changing back to how they were before their edits by Moritzva around June 7th afaik.
 
KieranH10 said:
Bumpo.

Should we apply this then? Nobody seems to disagree.
This is a pretty simple job, the profiles simply need changing back to how they were before their edits by Moritzva around June 7th afaik.
Click to expand...

maybe the one who gets tier low 7-C in my opinion is only steve enderdragon and wither because enderdragon and wither are lastbost and steve managed to beat him

and the rest can be 9-A to 8-B
 
Is there anything left to discuss here, or should we close this thread?
 
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