Mindless Ones Revision

[Tllmbrg]

A few power editions and changing most stats

Powers:
Heat Manipulation as shown here (M.O.D.O.K. Assassin Volume 1 Issue 4) and also resistance to heat manipulation due to tanking their own beams (Strange Tale Volume 1 Issue 152)
Inorganic Physiology, while there's nothing directly stating it I think it's more then likely due to not needing to breath (Defenders Volume 2 Issue 1), poison being useless against them (M.O.D.O.K. Assassin Volume 1 Issue 4) and the fact they seem to bleed magic (M.O.D.O.K. Assassin Volume 1 Issue 4) when hurt, the last scan also giving them regeneration
But in case it's not excepted then they simply get self sustenance type 1, resistance to poison and resistance to blood manipulation due to lacking it
Resistance to electricity manipulation due to Spider-Woman's Venom Blast not effecting them (Might Avengers Volume 1 Issue 11)
Can endure the vacuum of space and high gravity (Nova Volume 3 Issue 29)
Likely Type 1 Immortality due being made to fight endlessly
Resistance to mind manipulation due to their well mindless nature (M.O.D.O.K. Assassin Volume 1 Issue 3 and Strange Tale Volume 1 Issue 154)

Range and LS Update:
Class M Lifting Strength due to ripping Spider-Man's web on multiple occasions (Orignal Sin Volume 1 Issue 1 and Amazing Spider-Man Volume 2 Issue 57)
Range should be upgraded to at least tens of meters due to this (Nova Volume 5 Issue 18)

AP and Durability Update:
The higher end of Mindless Ones's AP and Durability should be 4-B due not only hurting Ego (Which is already listed on the page as a feat) but also taking a hit and hurting (Avengers Volume 1 Issue 118) Thor
Before anyone argues anything about Thor holding back in this particular case there's no real reason for him to hold back, not only are Mindless Ones not mortals but this feat did not occur on earth but in a highway to Dormammu's dimension which they were harrying to in order to prevent everyone on earth being corrupted by him
For another supporting feats Captain America said he couldn't endure a Mindless One's hits for long while it was hitting his shield (Captain America - Nick Fury The Otherworld War Volume 1 Issue 1)
The lowest end should be 9-C due to Doctor Strange taking hits from them (Strange Tale Volume 1 Issue 154)

Speed:
Just have it as MHS, they can keep up with most people

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

Everything seems pretty straightforward, Inorganic imo works but that could just be me. Also I agree with the 4-B though iirc they are inconsistent.

 

[Tllmbrg]

They're Varies for a reason, so really unless the argument is that they should have one solid tier as long as I have several feats to support it imo 4-B should work

 

[Antvasima]

They have not been portrayed as 4-B on a consistent basis since the early 1970s as far as I am aware. I am very reluctant to start messing with Zark's/Impress' scaling based on a single instance.

 

[Tllmbrg]

They have not been portrayed as 4-B on a consistent basis since the early 1970s as far as I am aware. I am very reluctant to start messing with Zark's/Impress' scaling based on a single instance.

A single instance

Alongside with a feat that's already listed on the page which is from 2009 and the Captain America one is from 2001, only the Thor feat is from the 70s
Again they're Varies tier for a reason, I fail to see how if they have several tiers in that area it's tossed as inconsistent rather then just expending the range of said Varies tier wise

 

[Antvasima]

I did not know that they have a varied tier. What do you intend for it to say exactly?

 

[Tllmbrg]

From 9-C up to 4-B (9-C is of hurting Classic Doctor Strange, 4-B is of the Thor and Ego feat)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine then, given how inconsistent they are.

However, are you sure that a variable tier is wise, given that this inconsistency applies to most Marvel characters?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Well unlike most Marvel Characters they're a magical race of which we can't really tell the difference from an individual to individual I think Varies is a good way to cover them since a definitive tier seems wrong to me at least

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that it is an in lack of better options solution then.

 

[Antvasima]

On second thought, I think that it seems safest to keep them at their current statistics that Impress placed there.

Ego is also very large. You do not have to be 4-B to cause damage to a very small part of him.

 

[00potato]

Why does his size change anything?

A small part of him would still be 4-B in dura unless you are getting into the molecular bits.

If that’s your only counter this should be safe to apply.
You can’t just keep the comic profiles stagnant for no reason.

 

[Antvasima]

Ego is generally treated as a planet that happens to be alive. Characters who stand on him that are far below tier 4-B have still been able to cause damage to their environment there. For example, the easiest way to defeat Ego is to travel into the center of his body and attack his small and vulnerable brain.

 

[Antvasima]

As for keeping the comicbook profile pages stagnant, it takes extreme amounts of knowledge to understand Marvel and DC Comics properly enough to revise the pages without causing severe damage to their reliability, and we haven't had a lot of members with sufficient insights in this regard.

@PrinceOfTheMorning, @ClassicNESfan and @Sandman31 were going to help me improve them greatly, but the first two quit from the wiki and the last one isn't very active anymore. Impress/Zark was not as knowledgeable as them, but made a massive effort to do proper research before all of her revisions.

 

[00potato]

You are the one who complains most about the inconsistency of comics, so why isn’t the characters damaging Ego just a 4-B feat for them?

 

[Antvasima]

Because he is recurrently treated as almost a regular planet in term of the durability of the environment on him.

When first introduced, Galactus was 5-B or 5-A, which is why a living planet was considered a good match for him. However, later the characters that had fought Ego were powered up greatly, which caused inconsistency problems.

 

[00potato]

Because he is treated that way.....
But why is he?
Galactus was tied 5 at first...
Why, is their a scan or reasoning for that?
A living planet is only just 5-B if no other feats exist before or after, which if that was so he wouldn’t be 4-B.

The characters were powered up greatly.
Is there any evidence or in-universe reasoning here? Was there a greater feat later that you are writing off as not scaling earlier? Everything is too vauge to take seriously.

So no real opposition to this exists, should we just put it through?

 

[Tllmbrg]

On second thought, I think that it seems safest to keep them at their current statistics that Impress placed there.

Ego is also very large. You do not have to be 4-B to cause damage to a very small part of him.

They still have other feats that are 4-B and again they're a race so idk why some of them being 4-B is too much, not like you can really use Mindless Ones for scaling most of the times

Impress/Zark was not as knowledgeable as them, but made a massive effort to do proper research before all of her revisions.

Also I like the implication here that I didn't do big research for my CRT, ig reading all issues Mindless Ones appeared in means squat

 

[Antvasima]

Galactus was initially created by the consciousness of a dying star and was only defined by his planet-destroying feats. In addition, regular Thor was a serious threat to him.

The feats of the regular Marvel superheroes gradually increased from their early days, yes. Even in the 1980s, the Hulk was strained to his limits from supporting a small part of a mountain range for example, and I remember an early fight with Havok in which the Hulk barely managed to lift a small hillside. Doctor Strange later received a serious downgrade though.

 

[Antvasima]

They still have other feats that are 4-B and again they're a race so idk why some of them being 4-B is too much, not like you can really use Mindless Ones for scaling most of the times

Also I like the implication here that I didn't do big research for my CRT, ig reading all issues Mindless Ones appeared in means squat

What other 4-B feats do they have?

 

[Tllmbrg]

The Thor feat and the Captain America one where a Mindless One was smashing at the shield and Cap said he won't survive long
Unless I didn't get right cap's kinetic absorption thing for his shield that should mean the hits are strong enough to bypass that

 

[00potato]

Galactus was initially created by the consciousness of a dying star and was only defined by his planet-destroying feats. In addition, regular Thor was a serious threat to him.

The feats of the regular Marvel superheroes gradually increased from their early days, yes. Even in the 1980s, the Hulk was strained to his limits from supporting a small part of a mountain range for example, and I remember an early fight with Havok in which the Hulk barely managed to lift a small hillside. Doctor Strange later received a serious downgrade though.

That just works as a feat for early Thor
Galactus was defined by the planet eating business, but there was no evidence it was his limit at all.

Also scans for the last paragraph? If not then It is invalid since your memory isn’t a valid source Jeff.

 

[Antvasima]

Tllmbrg:

Well, Thor has stated repeatedly that he tends to hold back in the company of the Avengers and other mortals, in order to not cause harm to them, and Captain America could just be overwhelmed by too many Mindless Ones hitting at him to block them all.

I am also very uneasy with giving such an extreme variable tier, as it sets a very bad precedent for other Marvel and DC comicbook characters. I think that Zark/Impress found a rather good balance in that regard with their current statistics, so it seems safest to keep them.

00potato:

Given that Galactus' entire power came from a star and his only feats were of planet-eating level, and he at this time needed machinery to help him do so, I think that it seems like a reliable estimation.

As for the Hulk, he strained to support a small part of a mountain range during the first Secret Wars in the 1980s, and barely lifted part of a small hillside during his first fight with Havok in the 1970s. It should be rather simple for you to Google for the references and then use *************** in combination if you are interested.

Also, please skip your ongoing disrespectful and subversive antagonistic attitude. I am not remotely the lying sort, have read several thousand Marvel and DC comicbooks over the years, remember a high percentage of them well enough, and have too many tasks to handle to constantly look for scans.

 

[LordTracer]

If you’re referring to what I think you’re referring to, Thor wasn’t a threat to Galactus in the early days. Galactus was poorly fed, and Thor had to call upon Odin’s power to properly defeat him, as stated in Thor Annual #14.

 

[00potato]

Ok then don’t make claims that you lack the time you back up then. Simple as that. Also again those don’t prove anything saying star level was his limit, just that a part of his backstory was from it l. At best you could say it’s a minimum. (Tracer showed that he could scale from Odin too, so definitely not Star Tier in his first appearances.)

Also I don’t care how much you have claimed to read or how good you claim your memory is, claims need evidence. Twice I have asked you this on a comic thread, twice you deflected and gave ridiculous accusations at me, for daring to ask you of one of the most basic parts of argumentation.
Why?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Tllmbrg:

Well, Thor has stated repeatedly that he tends to hold back in the company of the Avengers and other mortals, in order to not cause harm to them, and Captain America could just be overwhelmed by too many Mindless Ones hitting at him to block them all.

I am also very uneasy with giving such an extreme variable tier, as it sets a very bad precedent for other Marvel and DC comicbook characters. I think that Zark/Impress found a rather good balance in that regard with their current statistics, so it seems safest to keep them.

Oh yes because in the highway to Dormammu's dimension in where they're rushing to prevent him from corrupting everyone is on earth is when he's gonna hold back
Also what, Captain America made no indication the numbers were the problem and commented on how strong that Mindless One is
Also I really doubt Zark researched every bloody page that was covered by her 4-B revision considering if she did you'd think she'd also have the decency to update the P&A section for the more minor ones like Mindless Ones, and I'd really appreciate if you stopped arguing "Zark's revision...", yes her revision made so we can't automatically scale everyone of Thor/Hulk so we changed most of the 4-Bs to 5-As because there was no in depth research to each and everyone of them due to such research being too insane length wise
Also how is "9-C to 5-A" better then "9-C to 4-B", literally one tier difference
Nobody should be basing their pages of a Mindless Ones page as they're a magical race that the writers half the time let people who shouldn't have any business using use them alongside forgetting their core attribute of being mindless like in the ongoing run of Strange Academy

 

[Antvasima]

If you’re referring to what I think you’re referring to, Thor wasn’t a threat to Galactus in the early days. Galactus was poorly fed, and Thor had to call upon Odin’s power to properly defeat him, as stated in Thor Annual #14.

Okay. My mistake then.

 

[Antvasima]

Ok then don’t make claims that you lack the time you back up then. Simple as that. Also again those don’t prove anything saying star level was his limit, just that a part of his backstory was from it l. At best you could say it’s a minimum. (Tracer showed that he could scale from Odin too, so definitely not Star Tier in his first appearances.)

Also I don’t care how much you have claimed to read or how good you claim your memory is, claims need evidence. Twice I have asked you this on a comic thread, twice you deflected and gave ridiculous accusations at me, for daring to ask you of one of the most basic parts of argumentation.
Why?

The Havok event happened in Hulk #150 of the second series and the mountain range event happened during the first Secret Wars. It should be easy for you to check at ***************, but this forum blocks direct links to the site to avoid the risk of being shut down.

As for Galactus, I still maintain that a character who at the time needed help to even destroy planets and whose entire original power source was a star, at a time when the Marvel characters as a whole mostly did not have any significant feats to speak of, does not seem to have been of anywhere near his later power level.

Also, the claims are not ridiculous. You really have given me the impression of being the most systematically antagonistic and subversive member of this entire forum. This has been an ongoing occurrence since you first came here, and you are the only current member that I would personally prefer would permanently leave.

 

[00potato]

Omg, this is actually hilarious.
Please keep going.

Besides that I will check read comics when I have the time, but is it even safe? Not sure if I have good enough protection if it isn’t?

 

[Antvasima]

Oh yes because in the highway to Dormammu's dimension in where they're rushing to prevent him from corrupting everyone is on earth is when he's gonna hold back
Also what, Captain America made no indication the numbers were the problem and commented on how strong that Mindless One is
Also I really doubt Zark researched every bloody page that was covered by her 4-B revision considering if she did you'd think she'd also have the decency to update the P&A section for the more minor ones like Mindless Ones, and I'd really appreciate if you stopped arguing "Zark's revision...", yes her revision made so we can't automatically scale everyone of Thor/Hulk so we changed most of the 4-Bs to 5-As because there was no in depth research to each and everyone of them due to such research being too insane length wise
Also how is "9-C to 5-A" better then "9-C to 4-B", literally one tier difference
Nobody should be basing their pages of a Mindless Ones page as they're a magical race that the writers half the time let people who shouldn't have any business using use them alongside forgetting their core attribute of being mindless like in the ongoing run of Strange Academy

The issue is that Thor does not want to cause damage to his surroundings that kills his friends by his full power unleashed. Then again, that was established decades later than the Defenders/Avengers War in the mid 1970s.

Anyway, isn't the current MO statistic "Variable. Usually 5-A, possibly far higher" or somesuch? That seems far more balanced than 9-C to 4-B, even though the latter is technically correct, as it risks to set a precedent for many other Marvel and DC characters otherwise. I do not want to set the Hulk's tier as "9-C to High 3-A depending on the writer" for example.

 

[Antvasima]

Omg, this is actually hilarious.
Please keep going.

Besides that I will check read comics when I have the time, but is it even safe? Not sure if I have good enough protection if it isn’t?

You are entering bannable territory with the last comment. You really need to shape up, show some respect, and stop being a disturbance.

*************** should be safe to visit, but it is best to use uBlock Origin and NoScript plugins in the Mozilla Firefox browser to stay on the safe side. A VPN service doesn't hurt either.

 

[Tllmbrg]

The issue is that Thor does not want to cause damage to his surroundings that kills his friends by his full power unleashed. Then again, that was established decades later than the Defenders/Avengers War in the mid 1970s.

Anyway, isn't the current MO statistic "Variable. Usually 5-A, possibly far higher" or somesuch? That seems far more balanced than 9-C to 4-B, even though the latter is technically correct, as it risks to set a precedent for many other Marvel and DC characters otherwise. I do not want to set the Hulk's tier as "9-C to High 3-A depending on the writer" for example.

There's barely surroundings tho?
Plus I doubt a mystical highway to another dimension is brittle

Anyways if we're being specific the tier is: "Varies. At least 5-A at their strongest, likely higher"
Also again if someone is trying to base Hulk's stats based off a completely different case they're the problem, not the Mindless Ones's tier

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Potato, I know you can disagree with some stuff but maybe tone down the snarky comments alright, don't wanna do too brash alright?

Ant, maybe try to be a little bit more iron-willed, I don't think it is fair to ban someone on the thread if they are at least doing the bare minimum of making a point.

Regardless, I hope you two get along and let's just focus on the op, alrighty?

 

[Ionliosite]

Tllm makes the most sense here tbh. Trying to scale anything to a character whose power is very explicity variable should always be frowned upon, and this isn't even a single character but an entire race, so they're even more unreliable to be scaled FROM (so you can scale them to someone, but not vice versa). If anything, to be extra safe since this is Marvel, I would also add a note to the profile saying that that the different MO have different power (which is the reasoning for them being Varies), and thus scaling to them shouldn't be used.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yah I can dig the note, probably something like "Note: Due to Mindless Ones being an entire race of which they have various showings of all sorts of power levels scaling from them shouldn't effect one's tier"

 

[Antvasima]

There's barely surroundings tho?
Plus I doubt a mystical highway to another dimension is brittle

Anyways if we're being specific the tier is: "Varies. At least 5-A at their strongest, likely higher"
Also again if someone is trying to base Hulk's stats based off a completely different case they're the problem, not the Mindless Ones's tier

The point was that he doesn't want to kill his much weaker friends, but that was technically established much later.

How about "Varies. At least 5-A at their strongest, possibly 4-B" as a compromise solution then? The 5-A rating seems to have more warranted scaling behind it based on the examples in the profile page.

The point is that if we start to establish extreme variable tiers for Marvel Comics characters, it sets a very bad precedent for increasingly more of them.

 

[Antvasima]

Potato, I know you can disagree with some stuff but maybe tone down the snarky comments alright, don't wanna do too brash alright?

Ant, maybe try to be a little bit more iron-willed, I don't think it is fair to ban someone on the thread if they are at least doing the bare minimum of making a point.

Regardless, I hope you two get along and let's just focus on the op, alrighty?

Okay. Sorry if I went too far.

 

[Antvasima]

Tllm makes the most sense here tbh. Trying to scale anything to a character whose power is very explicity variable should always be frowned upon, and this isn't even a single character but an entire race, so they're even more unreliable to be scaled FROM (so you can scale them to someone, but not vice versa). If anything, to be extra safe since this is Marvel, I would also add a note to the profile saying that that the different MO have different power (which is the reasoning for them being Varies), and thus scaling to them shouldn't be used.

Again, the problem is that this is very common for Marvel Comics characters, so setting too extreme differences for upper and lower borders would inspire others to want to do the same for our other characters, and I would much prefer to avoid "Black Panther: Tier 10-A to 1-A depending on the writer", and "Thor: 9-C to Low 1-A depending on the writer" statistics, which sadly is not an exaggeration in how ridiculous this verse is in the powerscaling area.

 

[Antvasima]

Yah I can dig the note, probably something like "Note: Due to Mindless Ones being an entire race of which they have various showings of all sorts of power levels scaling from them shouldn't effect one's tier"

They have usually been portrayed as identical in power, nature, and design during their separate story appearances.

 

[Tllmbrg]

The point was that he doesn't want to kill his much weaker friends, but that was technically established much later.

How about "Varies. At least 5-A at their strongest, possibly 4-B" as a compromise solution then? The 5-A rating seems to have more warranted scaling behind it based on the examples in the profile page.

The point is that if we start to establish extreme variable tiers for Marvel Comics characters, it sets a very bad precedent for increasingly more of them.

I don't get how him hitting a monster with all his strength would put the other avengers in danger but either way seems like we agree he likely didn't hold back

I mean, I can showcase the ton of feats where they are shown to be 9-A to High 8-C like here (Might Avengers Volume 2 Issue 10), here (Original Sin volume 1 Issue 8) and here (Ben Riley: Scarlet Spider Volume 1 Issue 20) just to name a few so yah having the Varies start at 5-A for the strongest seems weird
And as I keep saying, if someone takes example from Mindless Ones as the basis for regular Marvel scaling that's a THEM problem because it should be clear as day that Mindless Ones are a unique case due to being a race of minions that's used by many people

They have usually been portrayed as identical in power, nature, and design during their separate story appearances.

Also eh no, the only real constant thing is them being a mindless race which keeps fighting no matter what
And even then the writers decide to give random Mindless Ones way more self awareness, hlike even their relationships to Dormammu changed since in the start he wanted them sealed while in later comics he's using them as minions for battle
So yah no I don't see why we can't have them just range a lot in terms of stats considering trying to scale of them should be really frowned upon due to how inconsistent they are