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TheRustyOne

VS Battles
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Alright, this is likely one of the biggest CRT that doesn't involve the god tiers. This thread will be mainly focus on almost every single lower tier character. The basis for a lot of these upgrades or changes, is coming for quite a few reasons. The big one is Base Izuku being upgraded to High 8-C. What is the reason for this upgrade? Well I'll get into that right now.

Monoma and Twin Impact. We already know what Twin Impact does, with the currently scaling Monoma and whoever scales to him is At least 8-C, possibly High 8-C. However I suggest that only the 3X weaker value be used, and just label him as 2.7 Tons. Along with anyone who scales to him and vice verse. My reasoning?

Base Izuku can handle 100% OFA with only broken limbs, while Monoma would've blown his limbs off had he tried to use OFA. Izuku makes that very clear, and his phrasing is the same exact thing All Might said would happen to Izuku if he tired to inherit OFA without training his body.

Izuku is confident his body is stronger than Monoma, and that he'd just lose his limbs trying to use OFA. So even U.A. Beginning Saga Deku is superior to Joint Training Arc Monoma. But this alone doesn't mean High 8-C. Just the same rating as Monoma, but here is where we have more information about how strong Base Deku is.

First off: Izuku himself, before knowing he was using 5%, stated the amount of power he uses is only a small increase. "Given the level my body is at, even when I control it... It only gives a small increase in power." All Might himself actually agrees with Izuku. "Hmm.. Right. Remember how I was talking about giving it between zero and a hundred? As you are now, your body is capable of about 5 percent."

So Base Izuku isn't that much weaker than 5%, which is only a small increase in power. And Izuku has scaling which supports this.

Izuku is capable of knocking the wind out of Bakugo with a throw. Something very hard to do when you're hundreds of times weaker than your opponent. He also able to take multiple hits from Bakugo, who even uses his explosions to propel himself. Which implies that throw had more force put into than he can do normally. Since there is no reason for the boost, if he is just holding back.

And he is shown to send Todoroki flying with a headbutt, and you can see Todoroki is shaking as he stops moving. Izuku even attempting to attack Todoroki would be insane, since he already knows he can withstand a 5% punch to the gut. But Izuku still attacks him without OFA, and it still does effect Todoroki. Not as much as 5%, but it isn't a huge difference.

Which fits with Izuku's statement. That 5% is a small increase of power. In case anyone wants to, here is the raw Japanese if you want another translation.

But that isn't all, here Gran Torino is able to hurt Izuku who is using 5%, he loses it, and hits him again in the same motion. Unless Gran Torino is adjusting his power incredibly fast, and could tell Izuku lost Full Cowl, that is more proof of Izuku being not that far apart from 5%.

Also while this isn't Izuku, I still think it is relevant to mention here. Uraraka is able to take many hits from Bakugo, and currently we just treat this as Bakugo holding back hundreds of times his strength. This is quite literally contradicted in the actual series. With Aizawa getting frustrated and yelling at a Pro Hero for yelling out that Bakugo was just being cruel and toying with her.

"Is the one who said he was toying with her a Pro? How many years of active duty? If that is what you're taking away from this, then you can leave. No point in watching. Go home and start looking at job hunting sites. She's come this far, and he knows her strength. His caution shows that he recognizes her as a worthy opponent. It's exactly because he wants to win so badly... That there is no room for carelessness or holding back."

Yet our current ratings spit in the face of this entire moment. Suggesting she has to be hundreds of times weaker and Bakugo is just toying with her, since he can blitz and knock her out in one hit. Which I find absurd. She clearly isn't vastly inferior to him, if she was she'd be blown away in a single attack. Bakugo wouldn't toy with her, he'd take her out quickly since he wants to win. But he is cautious of her, and is taking his time and not rushing forward. Because he knows how strong she is, and that half hearted measures won't take her down.

While this doesn't scale to Attack Potency, this is a clear durability and speed feat. Actually she has another speed feat as well. Being able to dodging Toga's attack and slam her into the ground. Toga is shown to be on par with 5%'s speed as well. So clearly Uraraka isn't portrayed as being vastly inferior to these 5% level people. Durability and Speed should be scaling back.

Because of this, I suggest Base Izuku to scale to 2.7 Tons or High 8-C. For being superior to Monoma and only being slightly weaker than 5%. Having been shown to take hits that can harm 5% with similar damage, and can somewhat harm people who are as durable as 5% with his attacks. Uraraka scales 2.7 Tons as well, as while she is inferior. She isn't vastly weaker than him, and can take serious hits from Bakugo. Obviously he isn't hitting her with his strongest possible attack. But his caution is proof that he lacks the means to easily one shot her... without killing her

Now what I wrote there is rather long, but is basically how I feel about the scaling I'm going to bring up. If accepted, Base Izuku becomes High 8-C or 2.7 Tons of TNT. Via scaling above Phantom Thief, who's body is too weak to handle OFA without his limbs popping off. This scales to Shinso, who can draw blood from Izuku with a punch and take his throw. The same throw that knocked the wind out of Bakugo as well. Which in turn scales to the Villain Bots, who are superior to Shinso who didn't even try to win the practical exam.

The Villain Bots are stronger than Shinso, and Izuku could only destroy one by using a weapon and taking advantage of its momentum. This in turn means the Villain Bots are High 8-C as well. Which scales to quite a good number of students. Including Mineta, who is able to take a direct hit from a Victory Bot.

I'm not going to list all of the scaling here, because oh my god that'd make this way too long.

Instead here is a link to a sandbox of mine that has all of my purposed changes and reasoning. This covers everyone I was able to think of, that is affected by this.

Also here is some notes that'd go on the verse page that explains the character's ratings.

Now then, please don't hesitate to write out any questions, disagreements, agreements, or whatever you think of while reading this.
 
Man you really outdid yourself with this CRT I agree 100% and thx for making the notes to explain the characters ratings it's been something I wanted to do for a while.
 
Well, I'll go though this as soon as I can tonight.

I should specify that I fully disagree with some of the points brought up in the OP, but won't be able to address them until tonight.
 
I'm in complete agreement with this new scaling.

Further more I would like to mention some instances which supports this scaling.

In Chapter 42 during Bakugo's fight against Tokoyami's Dark Shadow, he is implied multiple times to be an actual threat to Bakugo, with even Deku stating that Tokoyami could still turn this around.

But due to being a really bad matchup because of the light created by the explosions, Bakugo was able to beat him, with him even confirming this.

Another instance is Mezo Shouji being stated to be the strongest student in Class 1-A without using their Quirks, so he has no business being 9-A while Bakugo is High 8-C physically.

Toga was able to take a hit from Shouji so even she scales.
 
Dread it, run from it.

High 8-C Class 1A arrives all the same

This one’s a no brainer, you already know I agree. I’ve been an advocate that 9-B students has been ridiculous and bad every since it first showed up. Far too many inconsistencies for the students to all NOT scale to each other physically.

The feat of Base Deku flipping Bakugo being disregarded, on top of his statement that 5% isn’t even a big boost in power, on top of hurting Shoto with a headbutt, have been overlooked for far too long. And the argument that Bakugo is holding back all the time is ridiculous considering it’s never shown or stated that he does, and is instead directly shown to be opposite that.

Very much agree with OP
 

Izuku is confident his body is stronger than Monoma, and that he'd just lose his limbs trying to use OFA. So even U.A. Beginning Saga Deku is superior to Joint Training Arc Monoma. But this alone doesn't mean High 8-C. Just the same rating as Monoma, but here is where we have more information about how strong Base Deku is.

I don't see how Deku can know for certain exactly what would have happened if Monoma managed to use 100%. Obviously Monoma didn't use OFA 100% so there's no way of actually verifying whether Deku's fears were correct or not.

First off: Izuku himself, before knowing he was using 5%, stated the amount of power he uses is only a small increase. "Given the level my body is at, even when I control it... It only gives a small increase in power." All Might himself actually agrees with Izuku. "Hmm.. Right. Remember how I was talking about giving it between zero and a hundred? As you are now, your body is capable of about 5 percent."

I think that this line is a matter of interpretation. I can see where you get your interpretation of it from, but my position is that Deku is stating he is getting a "small increase" as opposed to the "big increase" he gets with 100%.

All Might's follow-up line is clarifying this as revealing that it is 5% to show how small it is compared to the unrestrainted power of One For All normally.

So I don't think Izuku is saying "5% is only a little bit more powerful than what I can do without One For All."

Izuku is capable of knocking the wind out of Bakugo with a throw. Something very hard to do when you're hundreds of times weaker than your opponent. He also able to take multiple hits from Bakugo, who even uses his explosions to propel himself. Which implies that throw had more force put into than he can do normally. Since there is no reason for the boost, if he is just holding back.

Bakugo could simply be weaker in that arc than what we currently scale him to.

But that isn't all, here Gran Torino is able to hurt Izuku who is using 5%, he loses it, and hits him again in the same motion. Unless Gran Torino is adjusting his power incredibly fast, and could tell Izuku lost Full Cowl, that is more proof of Izuku being not that far apart from 5%.

As you say, Gran Torino could simply be adjusting how hard he hits Deku. He's already holding himself back immensely in the first place.

Also while this isn't Izuku, I still think it is relevant to mention here. Uraraka is able to take many hits from Bakugo, and currently we just treat this as Bakugo holding back hundreds of times his strength. This is quite literally contradicted in the actual series. With Aizawa getting frustrated and yelling at a Pro Hero for yelling out that Bakugo was just being cruel and toying with her.


Yet our current ratings spit in the face of this entire moment. Suggesting she has to be hundreds of times weaker and Bakugo is just toying with her, since he can blitz and knock her out in one hit. Which I find absurd. She clearly isn't vastly inferior to him, if she was she'd be blown away in a single attack. Bakugo wouldn't toy with her, he'd take her out quickly since he wants to win. But he is cautious of her, and is taking his time and not rushing forward. Because he knows how strong she is, and that half hearted measures won't take her down.

Bakugo didn't use any High 8-C explosions against Ochaco until he did his full-power blast that destroyed the debris she was trying to drop on him.

Your own calcs show this. The one he fired up in the air and not at Ochaco is Large Building level. The ones he fires in Ochaco's direction are around Wall level.

This isn't a matter of Bakugo holding himself back because he's toying with her; but because he doesn't want to end her life in a school festival. He shows that he has the capacity for much larger explosions than what he uses on her during their actual fighting, and he deliberately does not use any explosions that powerful until it becomes necessary to save himself.

To suggest he was going all-out this entire time in terms of AP based on Aizawa's words is ignoring the context that Bakugo is noted not to use a seriously strong explosion until towards the end.

EDIT: I did a write up on Bakugo's explosions around 4 years ago here. It might be a bit outdated by now, but Bakugo's explosions shouldn't be assumed to all be High 8-C. I believe many of the points there are still relevant.
 
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I don't see how Deku can know for certain exactly what would have happened if Monoma managed to use 100%. Obviously Monoma didn't use OFA 100% so there's no way of actually verifying whether Deku's fears were correct or not.
... What? Did the narrative of the scene even implies that Deku doesn't know what he is talking about? Seriously, you have no proof that's the case, the author is literally using Deku to expose what would happen if Monoma were to use 100%, I'm tired of bs arguments like this being brought up, it's literally using headcanon.

Character A: If X were to use my full power, he would explode as he doesn't have the level of training I had and is simply not strong enough.
Damage: I don't see how he could know.

I don't care how he knows, the fact that he knows is all that matters, he stated multiple times in fact with all security that Monoma's limbs would have blown apart if he used 100% of OFA's power.

Exposition is always true unless the narrative implies otherwise.

I think that this line is a matter of interpretation. I can see where you get your interpretation of it from, but my position is that Deku is stating he is getting a "small increase" as opposed to the "big increase" he gets with 100%.
This is wrong and the statement itself is not up to interpretation.

"Given the level my body's at" referring obviously to his base strength. "Even when I control it" referring to his 5%. "It only gives a small increase in power." referring to the difference between his base strength and 5%.

In no universe nor timeline he ever even mentions it being a small increase compared to 100%, he is directly comparing it to his base strength.
As you say, Gran Torino could simply be adjusting how hard he hits Deku. He's already holding himself back immensely in the first place.
Deku took hits from Gran Torino using both 5% and his base state during the same panels. Gran Torino adjusting his level of power between thousands of times within hits makes no sense in context, Deku states that his hits aren't packing to much power but they are still powerful enough to draw blood from his 5% state.
He shows that he has the capacity for much larger explosions than what he uses on her during their actual fighting, and he deliberately does not use any explosions that powerful until it becomes necessary to save himself.
This is irrelevant, Bakugo had shown time and time again to be able to hurt characters on his level with small explosions.

Even during his fight with 5%/8% he only ever used Wall level sized explosions against him.

but Bakugo's explosions shouldn't be assumed to all be High 8-C. I believe many of the points there are still relevant.
Once again, even his smaller explosions can hurt High 8-C characters.
 
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Exposition is always true unless the narrative implies otherwise.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Sometimes when characters make statements they're not necessarily correct.

This is wrong and the statement itself is not up to interpretation.
"Given the level my body's at" referring obviously to his base strength. "Even when I control it" referring to his 5%. "It only gives a small increase in power." referring to the difference between his base strength and 5%.

I don't agree with your interpretation. As I said, "small increase in power" can refer to him not recieving the big increase that he gets with 100%.

Deku took hits from Gran Torino using both 5% and his base state during the same panels. Gran Torino adjusting his level of power between thousands of times within hits makes no sense in context, Deku states that his hits aren't packing to much power but they are still powerful enough to draw blood from his 5% state.

I didn't say he was adjusting his hits to a degree of thousands of times of difference.

This is irrelevant, Bakugo had shown time and time again to be able to hurt characters on his level with small explosions.
Even during his fight with 5%/8% he only ever used Wall level sized explosions against him.

Yet he only actually seriously harmed Deku with his explosions when he pulled out a calced High 8-C explosion.

If the size of Bakugo's explosions are completely irrelevant to the power of his explosions, then we should throw out all of our Bakugo calcs and stop the hypocrisy.

Also this is ignoring that his explosion he used at the end of the Ochaco fight was noted in the series to be more powerful than the explosions he was using against her.

Once again, even his smaller explosions can hurt High 8-C characters.

And you don't think this can't be PIS?
 
I don't think that's necessarily true. Sometimes when characters make statements they're not necessarily correct.
What you believe is irrelevant to the validation of a statement, at the end there's no proof nor implication to doubt his statement.

And Deku seriously though Monoma would have exploded if he had managed to copy the full power of One For All, to the point of being genuinely worried, twice. Your headcanon would mean Deku is randomly worried for something that is not true.

I don't agree with your interpretation. As I said, "small increase in power" can refer to him not recieving the big increase that he gets with 100%.
No it doesn't, the phrase "given the level my body's at" and "even when" already blows away any kind of weird interpretation you have. 100% wasn't even brought up in that panel.
Yet he only actually seriously harmed Deku with his explosions when he pulled out a calced High 8-C explosion.
Seriously harmed? So you mean all those injuries before the last big explosion were irrelevant to the fight? C'mon now, and how do you classify those last injuries as "serious" and not the ones before? It's not like Deku was mortally injured after that.
I didn't say he was adjusting his hits to a degree of thousands of times of difference.
Then what? Torino is hitting Deku hard enough to injure him in his 5% state, and Deku doesn't state or note any difference in power when he is getting hit between his base form and 5%.

If the size of Bakugo's explosions are completely irrelevant to the power of his explosions, then we should throw out all of our Bakugo calcs and stop the hypocrisy.
This is besides the point of the discussion, and Deku has multiple durability feats at High 8-C level anyways.
Also this is ignoring that his explosion he used at the end of the Ochaco fight was noted to be more powerful than the explosions he was using against her.
Yes, they are stronger, and what? Doesn't mean his previous explosions aren't High 8-C by pure scaling.
And you don't think this can't be PIS?
This is grasping at straws at this point. His smaller explosions can consistently hurt High 8-C characters, and his strongest explosions are no big deal at all.
 
Yes, they are stronger, and what? Doesn't mean his previous explosions aren't High 8-C by pure scaling.

If this is the type of logic I have to deal with; where Bakugo's smaller, weaker explosions can just be High 8-C because why the hell not, then I give up on MHA on this site.

Do whatever revisions you wish, I'll stay out of it.

Because there's clearly no reasonable middleground that can be achieved if Bakugo's noticeably weaker explosions can just be called High 8-C just for the sake of justify High 8-C Ochaco.
 
If we can say that an attack like this is comparable to an attack like this, by the standards of the site, then I don't want anything to do with revising My Hero Academia.
 
An even smaller explosion has hurt Bakugo himself.

Your point?

We’ve seen a shit ton of other feats like this in other series, but nothing happens.
RWBY has characters being knocked from a wall level/Small Building level attack when their MCB etc etc etc.
MCU characters get knocked from building level attacks at Island Level.
Just because some attacks are lower by our standards doesn’t mean that it’s like that story wise.
Bakugou will ALWAYS do his best. It’s the honest thing about him, he was pissed at shouto for not going all out, why would he do the same thing he’s angry about
 
I completely agree with the OP. Especially on the front of Ochako’s durability scaling to Katsuki, it never made sense for us to ignore that.
Right, the whole point of that fight being like that was explained by Aizawa himself and yet we're like "Nope, he wasn't going all out". This is further backed up by Aizawa himself saying at the training camp that they've barely increased in Power the whole semester, just got way better control.
 
Right, the whole point of that fight being like that was explained by Aizawa himself and yet we're like "Nope, he wasn't going all out". This is further backed up by Aizawa himself saying at the training camp that they've barely increased in Power, just got way better control.
Aizawa never said that Bakugo was always using full-power explosions against Ochaco. What he was saying was that Bakugo was fighting seriously; not that he was toying with her.

Do you think that Bakugo wanted to kill her in that fight?
 
We never ignored it. Bakugo's attacks against her were calced.
I need that one very confused picture of Tom from “Tom & Jerry” to describe this. Because if this is the case then let’s downgrade the entire verse to 7-C because All Might When using his final embers of one for all could only make a town level attack
 
Aizawa never said that Bakugo was always using full-power explosions against Ochaco. What he was saying was that Bakugo was fighting seriously; not that he was toying with her.

Do you think that Bakugo wanted to kill her in that fight?
No? He also lets off an 8-B nuke against Shouto with his High 8-C durability.
Bakugou is giving it everything he has, every fight.
 
I need that one very confused picture of Tom from “Tom & Jerry” to describe this. Because if this is the case then let’s downgrade the entire verse to 7-C because All Might When using his final embers of one for all could only make a town level attack
Consistency is key.

Just because I argue against the most high-end approach doesn't mean I'm advocating for the most absolute low end approach either. An argument against an upgrade is not "Let's downgrade everyone and everything instead."

No? He also lets off an 8-B nuke against Shouto with his High 8-C durability.
Bakugou is giving it everything he has, every fight.

That's ignoring all context.
 
Consistency is key.

Just because I argue against the most high-end approach doesn't mean I'm advocating for the most absolute low end approach either. An argument against an upgrade is not "Let's downgrade everyone and everything instead.”
Well then let’s go find the most consistency, I mean, I can’t find many wall level feats for aside from 2, but it’s obvious that the should scale to the weaker one because Mineta got sent flying by a victory bot. And we know that base deku is weaker than most of the main cast so let’s down scale him to 9-C+
That's ignoring all context.
Yes, because a character who never holds back and when pushed into a corner and drive to win against his main rival said “He’ll be fine if he dodges” before letting off an explosion which could possibly kill the other is going to hold back to his explosions to be hundreds of times weaker than his normal attacks
 
@Acer__ Based on what you've read from the manga, is it possible for Bakugo's explosions to ever vary in potency? Is it possible?
 
@Acer__ Based on what you've read from the manga, is it possible for Bakugo's explosions to ever vary in potency? Is it possible?
His explosions vary based on intent, amount of sweat used, length of the battle, temperature (as it’s his sweat). However as we see him in combat, he’s going for the quickest finish, which means he’s going for the top potential his blasts have.
And even if they do vary they aren’t going to vary so much that there is a 1015x difference, we saw the tiny ass sweat grenades in WHM with minuscule amounts of sweat take down the serpenters in a medium sized quantity, so even a small amount of his sweat will cause big kabooms
 
@Acer__ Based on what you've read from the manga, is it possible for Bakugo's explosions to ever vary in potency? Is it possible?
I think varying is definitely possible but the odds are that they aren’t varying by literally thousands of times, and I think the difference comes from us just looking at AOE and not scaling the explosions to characters
 
@TheRustyOne Wait where would VH arc Deku be? He’s massively superior physicality wise to this version of Deku, like isnt 45% compared to him as essentially being his new 5% in terms of strain on him?
 
I meant like how far into High 8-C like can we give him a value or do we just give him like 8 >’s over his EA arc self who is strong than JT who is stronger than UA Beginnings
Much stronger than 2.7 tons by an unknown amount.

Bringing out more instances supporting the scaling, in Chapter 26 of the manga when the Sports Festival Race ended, Bakugo's arms were visible in pain even though he only used small explosions to move around and threaten Shoto, who also has High 8-C durability.


So I still fail to see any argument that refutes his smaller explosions being able to hurt High 8-C characters, himself included.

His bigger explosions can be stronger, and still be High 8-C, and the same applies the other way around, his smaller explosions can be weaker and still be High 8-C.

This is supported by Deku taking similar damage from Bakugo's smaller and larger explosions during their fight.
 
So are we ignoring when Monoma copied explosion and hit Bakugo with a small explosion and Bakugo was hurt by it or what
I assume the "we" you mean is me?

My perspective on that is that Bakugo's durability is not actually fully equal to the explosions that he generates and so his durability at that time could be lower than High 8-C. Obviously he withstands some of the force otherwise there'd be no recoil and obviously he has some durability from that, but as you point out when he gets hit on his face from Monoma he recieves a visible mark there, but when he creates an undeniably more powerful explosion from his hands there is no sign of any damage at all to the surface of his hand.

So unless we're seriously arguing that this is more powerful than this, the alternative makes more sense to me.

I don't expect people to agree with that and it doesn't work perfectly in the VSBW system which takes a simplified approach out of necessity. AP = Durability via Third Law, etc, but that's my perspective.
 
I assume the "we" you mean is me?

My perspective on that is that Bakugo's durability is not actually fully equal to the explosions that he generates and so his durability at that time could be lower than High 8-C. Obviously he withstands some of the force otherwise there'd be no recoil and obviously he has some durability from that, but as you point out when he gets hit on his face from Monoma he recieves a visible mark there, but when he creates an undeniably more powerful explosion from his hands there is no sign of any damage at all to the surface of his hand.

So unless we're seriously arguing that this is more powerful than this, the alternative makes more sense to me.

I don't expect people to agree with that and it doesn't work perfectly in the VSBW system which takes a simplified approach out of necessity. AP = Durability via Third Law, etc, but that's my perspective.
So Bakugo’s durability was 9-B a couple weeks before propelling several thousand times to be High 8-C is your argument?
 
So Bakugo’s durability was 9-B a couple weeks before propelling several thousand times to be High 8-C is your argument?
No. I've noticed a recurring theme with you is that you just like to try and make an argument for me.

I was just explaining my perspective on what you brought up.
 
No. I've noticed a recurring theme with you is that you just like to try and make an argument for me.

I was just explaining my perspective on what you brought up.
Your perspective is literally “Bakugo’s durability isn’t that high in the first place.” That’s not an argument I’m making for you, that’s literally what you’re saying. That Bakugo should be downgraded because his explosions shouldn’t scale to him.

By inferring that he should be downgraded, you then have to understand that not even 4 weeks after the incident with Monoma he’s comparable to 5% Deku who has numerous High 8-C feats that aren’t reliant on Bakugo.

You can’t fall back and say I’m making an argument for you because you don’t like the train of thought your argument leads to
 
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