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Mewtwo vs Frieza is ACTUALLY possible now folks

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@Schnee One

And then we had a discussion about it after that...

Schnee One said:
How is that passive?
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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Well he was unconscious, and didn't know Genesect prior, so Mewtwo didn't use any active attempt to read minds. Its a "just happened" kind of scenerio. If that isn't passive, idk what it'd be.
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Unless you just forgot?
 
Schnee One said:
It'd be being able to use your abilities while not conscious

Because how can you read and understand thoughts during that time, besides that contradicts literally any time Mewtwo isn't fully aware of what his opposition is doing
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Schnee One said:
Actually it would be, if he was able to read thoughts while unconscious then activating the ability to do so is literally no different.
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Yes we did have the discussion, read the entire thing

You said it was passive, I said it wasn't.
 
No, right before that I asked if the ability just activates on its own

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
True. But at the same time, the ability wouldn't be actively used by Mewtwo since...he wasn't conscious.
Would the ability just activate on it's own then?
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Tho I guess I didn't know what you meant by "actually it would be".
 
If Freeza isn't strong enough to dispatch Mewtwo before the latter resorts to Mindhax, then Mewtwo would take this.

But we need to know how high Freeza scales to in this form.
 
Abilities that need an activation of any kind cannot really be considered passive, even if said ability is activated when unconscious or activated on there own. It is still being activated, meaning it is not active at all times.

Moving on, I have seen Mewtwo use his mindhax upfront with his foes in movie one. If he actually wants to kill and harm them, it is a different story.
 
In my opinion: "Active" and "Passive" are the extremes. We're used to thinking about active as "an ability that you consciously activate and lasts an instance, or is otherwise actively sustained. Ex; a punch, can't do that passively." and passive as "an ability that is always active and automatically applies to all valid targets unconsciously unless stated otherwise. Ex: Your heart beat."

This abliity of Mewtwo's falls in the middle by having the passive attribute of not requiring his input, direction, discrimination or consciousness, or anything, to work, but it clearly isn't active all the time unless we assume all cases where it isn't active to be plot induced stupdity, or we consider the ability itself to be a one-off.

So, I'll just say... It's "semi passive."


It definitely doesn't make it easy to say exactly when Mewtwo would use this ability in the fight though, which is why people are trying to argue either passive or active.
 
It's somewhat difficult to place exactly where 4-B Frieza is due to some vague power-scaling statements at this point. Tagoma was stated to "rival Gohan at his peak." Assuming this "peak" is around Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan level:

If, Tagoma = SSJ2 Cell Saga Gohan at 1 KiloFoe then you could place base RoF Gohan at 100 Foe which would make his Super Saiyan form 5 KiloFoe. This makes sense considering Tagoma stomped base Gohan and called his power "puny" but Super Saiyan Gohan seemed to practically two-shot Tagoma.

I'd place Frieza at this point likely in the 10 to 20 KiloFoe range considering how casually he tortured Gohan. So, there is decent one/two-shot potential for Frieza if Mewtwo is a little under 3 KiloFoe as Schnee states.

As with many Dragon Ball matches, it depends on what hax Mewtwo uses first.
 
Tagoma's profile scales to Ultimate Gohan, and First Form Frieza is considered to be far stronger.

SS2 Gohan scales above 1 KiloFOE in the Cell Saga, with Buu Saga SS2 Goku being said to be stronger than that. SS3 Goku should much stronger but to an unknown degree.

SS Gotenks is as strong as SS3 Goku, with SS3 Gotenks having a larger gap than SS2 and SS3 Goku.

SS3 Gotenks and Super Buu are roughly evenly matched.

Buutenks is much stronger than Ultimate Gohan, meaning the gap between Super Buu/SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan is less than 2x (seeing as SS3 and Buu were evenly matched and Buu absorbed, he should be twice as strong.)

Buutenks >> Tagoma = Ultimate Gohan >> Super Buu = SS3 Gotenks >>> SS Gotenks = SS3 Goku >> SS2 Goku > SS2 Gohan (Cell Saga) > Super Perfect Cell = 1 KiloFoe

For fun, let's say SS2 is 2x SS and SS3 is 2x SS2 and scale from there.

SS3 Goku = at least 2 KiloFoe

SS3 Gotenks = at least 8 KiloFoe

Ultimate Gohan = at least between 8 and 16 KiloFoe

Frieza = Much stronger than Ultimate Gohan, likely around or above Buutenks due to both stomping Gohan.

Overall, it's fair to claim Frieza is in the ballpark of 5x Mewtwo's AP, possibly higher.
 
@Cryo

Mewtwo scales below 3 Kilofoe, not directly to it.

Safe to say Frieza is in one shotting range
 
Ah, okay. So it's really all based on who takes initative here.

Frieza likes to toy with opponents, if he is irritated but will generally one-shot fodder on a whim but Mewtwo seems to have plenty of hax to work with.

This is all based on whether Frieza lasers Mewtwo or Mewtwo haxes Frieza first.
 
Mewtwo does have non passive precognition and mindhax to work with

On top of this, he can likely dodge the laser
 
Schnee One said:
Mewtwo does have non passive precognition and mindhax to work with
On top of this, he can likely dodge the laser
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Non-passive requires for him to activate it beforehand, so he needs to react faster than Frieza but I'm not sure how Future Sight works outside of game mechanics.

As for dodging, the speed is equalised and it's difficult to scale Ki attack speed relative to Physical speed, so we'll just assume Death Beam is as fast as punching normally. In that case, Frieza can rapidly fire a Death Beam barrage from his starting position, which should be incredibly difficult for Mewtwo to dodge due to Frieza's pinpoint accuracy, ki sensing and the sheer number of lasers he can fire.

If we assume Frieza is just lazily expecting to end this quickly and has no interest in drawing it out, we can expect him to go for one Death Beam, notice Mewtwo dodged and then try spamming a Death Beam barrage to kill him. If he failed to kill Mewtwo with the barrage, he might become irritated and want to torture Mewtwo via drawing out the fight.
 
Shooting a Beam from 4KM away in a speed equal fight is immensely easy to dodge, a mere sidestep can do that, dodging a laser is not difficult
 
If they're the same tier, Mewtwo pretty easily. Abuses mind reading (it's the literal first thing he's even done, as he's used it while gestating), Frieza can't sense Ki, and regen prevents any oneshotting, especially due to death beam. Mewtwo doesn't even need to abuse hax when he can swap their stats at will and then Mewtwo has literally every advantage if that happens, bar none.

Furthermore, Mewtwo is just far more mobile than Frieza. Teleportation spam helps a ton. If Frieza intiates cqc, same. Mewtwo is a ranged fighter. Frieza could use his own TK, but Mewtwo resists.
 
Schnee One said:
Shooting a Beam from 4KM away in a speed equal fight is immensely easy to dodge, a mere sidestep can do that, dodging a laser is not difficult
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Ah, distance had never come back before in the threads I commented in so I forgot that was a thing in SBA.

Mewtwo can use Teleport to close the distance pretty much instantly, but the Afterimage Technique does exist, although I doubt Frieza can utilise it with equalised speed.

It doesn't seem like Mewtwo has a means of sensing Frieza's power, whereas Frieza should be capable of detecting Mewtwo's Ki unless Mewtwo has displayed the ability to sense Aura?

If Mewtwo can't detect Frieza's power, Frieza has the intel advantage. Mewtwo's IC actions seem harder to discern, but I imagine he would likely fight cautiously due to lacking information on Frieza's powers.

I'm going to assume Mewtwo can just teleport outside of Imprisonment Ball and is immune to any telekinetic attacks, or at least highly resistant. This leaves Frieza with his powerful omnidirectional blasts and Death Beams.

Mewtwo X becomes faster each time it flinches, but it's hard to discern how this translates to battle. It could easily be a game changer though.

Considering the huge AP gap, it doesn't seem like Mewtwo can hurt Frieza outside of ignoring durability and durability negation, so he would need to rely on hax to win.

The hax I see that Mewtwo can use to win would be:

  • Mind Manipulation
  • Memory Manipulation
  • BFR via Teleport
  • Power Absorption
  • Damage Reflection (50% chance)
  • Fear Manipulation
  • Sleep Manipulation
  • Statistics Reduction
  • Attack Reflection
Anything not mentioned is due to me not knowing enough to approach or believing it isn't relevant to fighting Frieza.

As far as I am aware, Mewtwo doesn't typically use Memory Manipulation in combat but his Mind Manipulation is varied.

Power Absorption means is unknown but is noted due to extreme use in covering gap.

BFR requires Mewtwo to tag Frieza with it, but Frieza has no means of countering as far as I am aware.

Damage Reflection is chance based, so I won't argue for or against it.

Fear Manipulation is hard to say but could hinder Frieza greatly.

Sleep Manipulation should be temporary but can at least open Frieza to BFR.

Statistics Reduction requires Mewtwo to tag Frieza multiple times to lower him enough, but lowered AP and Durability will help even things a lot in straight combat and the lowered speed would give Mewtwo a big advantage.

Attack Reflection is his primary means for beating Frieza but as far as I can tell, this would be from Counter which limits it to physical attacks only.

Overall, in straight combat, Mewtwo is going to lose in all likelihood but his Mind Manipulation, Sleep inducement and Teleport can take Frieza out of the fight.
 
Yea this definitely not a stomp, as Frieza is superior AP-wise, but his key used here isn't as versatile. I think Frieza becomes actually busted after RoF, if I remember correctly.
 
Dragopentling said:
Yea this definitely not a stomp, as Frieza is superior AP-wise, but his key used here isn't as versatile. I think Frieza becomes actually busted after RoF, if I remember correctly.
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Frieza after RoF displays better Paralysis, uses Barriers, has homing Death Beams, can create a dozen homing Death Beams at one time and overall displays much more skill, figuring out Dyspo faster than Hit and managing to sneak attack Jiren. He is also capable of exploding people internally with pressure point strikes.

RoF Frieza is basically Namek Frieza, just much stronger and arguably much more unhinged.

I think Mewtwo winning via versatility is sensible, although I suspect Post-ToP Frieza could win if equalised down to Mewtwo's level due to his skill, analysis and techniques.

Regardless, I think I'll vote Mewtwo.
 
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