Metal Gear Solid Striking Strength Revision

[SheevShezarrine]

Shagohod is currently listed as City Block level, with matching durability. at about 2:26 of this video of the fight, Volgin punches right through its armor, and not at any spot where said armor is considered weak, iirc. If not simply tossed to the curb as an inconsistency/outlier, this would mean bumping Volgin's striking strength up to City Block level, with matching durability since he doesn't seem to have injured himself with the counterforce of his strike. In addition, this would mean bumping up Big Boss's durability to that level, since he can withstand both Volgin's electric shocks and physical strikes with intent to kill (note that Volgin's electric shocks would be increased to City Block level for being able to injure Volgin himself). And finally, since several characters in Metal Gear are capable of harming Big Boss and his sons with physical strikes, but can also be harmed by them with physical strikes in return, this would mean that Big Boss's striking strength would scale to his durability, thus meaning an overall upgrade for striking strength in the "Solid" entries of Metal Gear, as well as MG1 and MG2.

Side note: if Old Snake's ability to knock over Gekkos is still considered a valid side justifier for his 8-C rating, I should mention that due to 4 Gekkos being able to restrain MGS4 Raiden (who has a physical strength of 35.92 tons, or City Block level), each Gekko thusly has a strength of 8.98 tons, or Large Building level. So, if that's still considered a valid back-up feat, that would still result in an upgrade, just to LBL as opposed to CBL.

 

[Antvasima]

You can use the Knowledgeable Members List and the supporters and neutral sections of the Metal Gear verse page to find people to ask to comment here.

 

[Dark649]

Making a small hole in a 8-B weapon, which was already damaged by the way does not grant 8-B stats. Also currently Gekko's are not 8-B.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Making a small hole in a 8-B weapon, which was already damaged by the way does not grant 8-B stats. Also currently Gekko's are not 8-B.

Naked Snake was firing at the weak spots of the Shagohod, not at the heavily armored sections. Also I never said Gekkos are 8-B

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I am probably not much use here I'm afraid.

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. After taking the time to read through this suggestion, I think that it seems to make sense.

 

[Dark649]

Its better for the stronger weapons to be 8-B rather than phisically since the verse consistely has characters that were injured by 8-C+ attacks.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Didn't Dark649 already evaluate this?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Iirc those 8-C+ attacks scale off of harming 8-C+ characters, who would be upgraded by this

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

None so far. Need more input hence the bump

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What do you think Dark649?

 

[Dark649]

That we need more members about this verse to respond before deciding anything.

 

[Antvasima]

You can use the Knowledgeable Members List and the supporters and neutral sections of the Metal Gear verse page to find people to ask to comment here.

Okay. Has anybody done what I asked for?

 

[Friendlysociopath]

I wouldn't really use Snake Eater feats for superhuman durability given that a substantial portion of that game is based around Snake taking damage from, and treating, injuries he accumulates from far lesser threats and problems. There's hardly any room for doubt that Snake is intended to be harmed by lesser forces in Snake Eater seeing as there is an extensive amount of gameplay revolving around treating his many wounds. For any other Metal Gear I would give more of a doubt, given how obvious they make it when Snake faces superhumans, but not Snake Eater.

You can't with a straight face say Snake has flesh that can withstand someone punching through vehicle armor and then in the same breath watch him bleed and require surgery to get a bullet out. He gets shot in the face as a plot point- it works on him like any other human. Bullet-proof he is not- that goes double for weapons designed to withstand nukes.

Given that he obviously is not so strong as Volgin and obviously not as durable as the Shagohod- scaling, durability or not, seems like a mistake. Later games may play up how superhuman he is- Snake Eater is not one of them.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

There's a few problems with that logic. One, Snake (and a few of the people he scales to, not including Volgin), have superhuman feats in Snake Eater. First, here Snake is reacting to an explosion and a crapton of crossbow bolts. Assuming the bomb is a conventional explosive, this would probably yield a reaction speed of anywhere from Subsonic+ to low-end Hypersonic. Then, there's also Ocelot reacting to Volgin's lightning, which is calced as a Mach 17 feat on here. So, the statement that Snake Eater is lacking in superhuman feats and should not be used for such is false.

Second, there's also the problem that tons of superhuman fictional characters have been harmed repeatedly by normal humans with normal weapons. Take Guts for instance. At a point in time when he was sitting at around Wall level+ to Small Building level, he suffered severe injuries fighting off a bunch of regular footsoldiers, and even at points in his story where he's City Block level there are still tines where he runs the same risk. And on a similar note, there's Geralt of Rivia, who's also Small Building level, who was nearly killed by being stabbed by a peasant with a pitchfork. Superhuman characters being injured by stuff that logically shouldn't do squat to them, especially characters within the Tier 8 and the upper echelons of Tier 9, is a pretty common occurence.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

There's a few problems with that logic. One, Snake (and a few of the people he scales to, not including Volgin), have superhuman feats in Snake Eater. First, here Snake is reacting to an explosion and a crapton of crossbow bolts. Assuming the bomb is a conventional explosive

Which we have zero reason to assume given that: he has no apparent source to provide said explosion, it seemingly comes from inside him without any visible trigger, Metal Gear uses creative liscencing with tech, said explosion magically produces seemingly half his weight in crossbow bolts, and even if we did assume that- Snake does not react to the explosion because the explosion does not reach him. The bolts do not travel the speed of the explosion that they came from.

I did not argue there's no superhuman feats, I argued that Snake very clearly in both gameplay and cutscenes is not that durable and have evidence for both of those given the extensive injury treating system he has plus the very obvious fact that he gets his eye shot out plus he treats everyone with bullets as a threat including codec conversations. Regardless of feats- developer intent is clear in Snake Eater- he is injured by less.

I also argued that he clearly is not as strong as Volgin given that Snake obviously does not punch holes in Shagohod and cannot do so. You can't argue Volgin punches that hard and so Volgin is so durable, insist Snake scales to said durability and strength, and then ignore how Snake absolutely can't do the things Volgin did.

Bringing up other franchises is irrelevant but- if characters are repeatedly and consistently taking damage from lesser threats, then that's what they should be rated as. Vsbattles having a standing policy of ignoring anything that contradicts higher showings is not my problem it is a problem with the site. If literally every time we see someone interact with a bullet- it hurts them or presents a clear threat- they're not bullet-proof. This is the flaw with only measuring energy- which is why I told you I did not want to comment on this thread. You can't just subtract half of physics (pressure, force) and expect everything to match up.

The obvious solution is very, very simple and it's a solution Vsbattles refuses to use, attacks that use pressure (bullets and blades) do not operate the same as attacks that use energy (explosions and punches) and character durability likewise operates under different principles depending on how the attack operates- plenty of materials exist that are only resistant to one type of damage in the first place so this isn't even all that strange.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

So any new conclusions?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Friendly says inconsistency

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

That is the nicest way someone has phrased, "Friendly disagrees" I have heard in like 5 years.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Volgin can punch through the Shagohod, which is impervious to RPG-7 Rockets. I don't think it is 8-B though. The MGS profiles suffer from some backwards scaling.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Seems to be general consensus that it's inconsistency

 

[Stefano4444]

I'm not 100% sure about City Block level, Volgin had perforated the armor of the Shagohod but he didn't tear a part the entire tank, it was just a tiny hole and the damage was for the most part superficial.

For the Large Building level it sound good and such scaling wouldn't much of an outlier since MG characters are already Building level+ for other reasons, the upgrade wouldn't be so massive (and isn't too ridiculous since Snake can restrain a weakend Varm and survive his physical blows).

And speaking about Ocelot reacting to Volgin's lightning, the feat is calced to be about Mach 17.34 which is Hypersonic+, but every profile of all MG characters that get scaled from that feat are only ranked at Hypersonic, including Revolver Ocelot, so please someone go to fix the profiles.

Also, since it is possible in gameplay to dodge Volgin's lightinging in combat(at 8:54) which is calced to be about Mach 20.49, would means Big Boss too should get scaled as well as everyone else?

 

[Stefano4444]

bump

 

[Stefano4444]

bump

 

[Amexim]

1. Developer or author intent doesn't matter. Death of the Author.

2. On the "pressure" stuff you were talking about— I fail to see how a 3-A that can tank explosions and punches that can destroy universes can EVER be affected by a bullet. I'm not a physics person, but I'm fairly sure that my skin can be opened by even simple punches and explosions. If simple energy based damage can affect my body and damage my skin, sure, pressure based damage can do it far more accurately, but it would still require a comparable amount of energy to pierce my skin (in comparison).

3. When characters are consistently contradictory, it's 50/50 whether or not we should treat the author's bad writing and foolishness as valid. A Multiversal being with a 3-D body and durability that matches his AP shouldn't be hurt by any bullet or weapon that isn't swung by someone on their level. The weapon might have to need to be that durable too... It seems like you want to be extra conservative on ranking characters in general. Which is fine, as long as it's accurate. I mean, unless you want to downgrade Hulk or anyone stronger than him who has fought Spider-Man (even if it was consistent) before because any bad showings should invalidate higher showings. Don't we have a rule against that?

The only way a bullet would pierce the skin of a town level being is of its made to or fired with enough energy that it would hurt a town level being. It's why BB guns don't pierce our skin, right? Not hardness, but resilience and toughness.

That being said, I agree with Friendly's position on thE actual topic.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

1. Then it's perfectly fine to toss aside either feat since the author doesn't know what they're doing if such a contradiction exists. Again, I acknowledge Snake is superhuman, Metal Gear in general has acknowledged that, but Snake Eater has abundant evidence his durability in that game is not meant to be equal to the Shagohod.

2. Yes, at some point the equivalent forces are too much for this to continue holding up. Everyone always jumps to the most extreme versions of that (universe/mountain-leveling punch) instead of analyzing it from the lower levels where the argument is actually made. There is definitely a level of explosive destruction where the same pressures as a bullet are achieved on everything in the radius- as far as I know, that level is not reached with conventional explosives. The difference between me hitting you with a sword or a stick that weighs exactly as much as the sword is a difference in pressure- not energy. Vsbattles only measures the latter which is why bullets and edged/pointed weapons consistently throw you guys for a loop.

3. I do indeed prefer to be conservative when regarding characters- it's gotten me in some trouble in the past. No worries I have no plans to run around the wiki poking at holes in arguments and calcs (I won't touch comics in any case, different writers make those impossible). If something pops up in recent news I think I can help with I will look and if someone asks on my wall (like here) I will look but I have no intentions of causing ruckus like that.

Also BB's can definitely break skin. Not much else but they do break skin.

 

[Antvasima]

Don't quote very long posts please.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

Don't quote very long posts please.

Apologies.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Antvasima]

So are there any new summarised conclusions here?