• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Massive Source Downgrades (Maou Gakuin)

Status
Not open for further replies.
DarkGrath said:
I will try to explain this in simpler terms. Feel free to ask if there is anything confusing.

Think of "all of reality" (as in, literally everything, on any possible level) as a giant set. Now think of any particular element of reality (such as a person) as a small subset of that set. If reality is one massive circle, a person is a smaller circle contained inside that giant circle.

To qualify for Type 2, that concept must abstractly define that smaller circle such that, if the concept did not exist, the smaller circle would entirely ease to exist within the larger circle. The concept is so inexorably tied to everything related to the tangible existence of that person that, should the concept disappear, the tangible existence in all forms would too.

This is what "all reality within their area of influence" on the CM page refers to. Not necessarily the whole of reality, but the whole of that subset of reality - the "area of influence" for the concept.

In the case of sources, the "area of influence" is the person whom the source conceptualizes. So, if the source was a Type 2 Concept, removing the source would mean all elements of the subset that defines "the person" in all of reality would disappear with it. The subset of reality that contains all tangible aspects of their existence in all forms would disappear; the smaller circle would no longer exist within the larger circle.

The reason the provided evidence does not qualify for Type 2 is because it has not thoroughly proven this. It gets close enough to proving it that, as I've mentioned before, I'd be willing to hear out more quotes if they can be provided. But the exact influence the source has over the existence of the person is too vague within the given sources to prove that this truly applies to "all of reality within its area of influence" - for example, it hasn't been proven that the past existence of the person (which would be considered a part of "all of reality within its area of influence") is erased when the source is, meaning we do not know whether it has total precedence over the subset. Ergo, it only qualifies for Type 3 under the given evidence.
Click to expand...
...I was right...I'm happy enough, even if we lost CM type 2, according to these words, recovering it will be easy.
 
DarkGrath said:
Very interesting. I cannot afford to reply further tonight, as I need to get some rest, but I'm happy to evaluate any further evidence you would be interested in providing.
Click to expand...
Alright, thanks SO MUCH for your detailed analysis and your explanation, that probably clarified a lot of things.
Good rest
 
DarkGrath said:
I will need a clear quote showing that the "source" of a person governs the concept of that person's existence in any and all tangible forms, such that the erasure of the source equates to the removal of any and all instances of the person's existence within the boundaries of reality set in the verse
Click to expand...
Interesting so what is missing from the current evidence provided? Proof that destroying the source destroys them in the past?
If that's what is missing then it can neither be proven to be true or false.
The past is something that's set in stone and cannot be changed. Miniscule changes might be possible but anything that greatly affects the course of history is impossible because the Gods that govern time will simply reset history back on it's original course

Further proof being Anos destroying the land of traces had no effect on the present.
Traces are the footprints, the past of all things
"The reason why Rivalschnedd and this land are immortal is because it is the past of all things, in other words, it is the trace of all things."
Gorloana's eyes widen as he looks at me, burning in the fires of the apocalypse.
"...... why ............?"
He spills words, as if he can't understand why I didn't perish in an instant.
"It would be an indestructible footprint that would not disappear no matter how far back in time I went."
I look at my footprints in the earth.
"I look at my footprints in the earth, "You can make your footprints in the earth, but you can never erase them. Then how do you destroy it?"
[...]
First Step--
The huge bookshelves that lined the ground collapsed, and all the books that had contained traces of the world were thrown into the air.
The pages that were opened one after another were traces of this world.
The shadows of countless people appear in the wilderness. And the next moment, they were crushed by my step and perished without a trace.
[...]
Sixth step--

The earth, which is now nothing more than a trace, is simply trampled on and shaken violently.
The only remaining light in front of me was trampled by my step, and the world was closed in darkness.

The seventh step--
As I was about to mark my seventh step, I stopped moving.
The Land of Traces is gone, and the surroundings have returned to the cobblestone floor.
If I had taken this seventh step on the floor, I would have destroyed the world a thousand times over and have power to spare.
Click to expand...
Destroying the entire past of everything in the world had no effect on the present thus it's impossible to prove the source doesn't govern a person's past
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Interesting so what is missing from the current evidence provided? Proof that destroying the source destroys them in the past?
Click to expand...
Not exactly, we can recover the CM type 2 (and update it to CM type 1) with the explanations that are already in the CRT of updating the source to CM type 1.
 
It is explicitly stated that a corpse is left behind after someone's source is destroyed (will send the scan later), so no, sources do not meet the criteria DarkGrath listed.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
It is explicitly stated that a corpse is left behind after someone's source is destroyed (will send the scan later), so no, sources do not meet the criteria DarkGrath listed.
Click to expand...
6pxquh.jpg

The only moment in WN where I see the word "corpse" is said is about the explanation of a spell.
 
Dog3352 said:
6pxquh.jpg

The only moment in WN where I see the word "corpse" is said is about the explanation of a spell.
Click to expand...
"You want to protect your master's vessel and name until your last moment, right?"



　The man silently affirms.

　If the root disappears, the body of the tyrannical tyrant will turn into a mere corpse.



　If he could throw away the vessel and survive, he would have already been reincarnated.



　This body is the only proof of his loyalty to his master.
Click to expand...
oopsie
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
oopsie
Click to expand...
I don't remember what happens in this part, but is that the only mention you have? Destroying the source at all times resulted in the destruction of the body, I don't think that single moment will be a downgrade.
I remember this guy had something different compared to normal characters, but I don't remember what it was.
 
Dog3352 said:
I don't remember what happens in this part, but is that the only mention you have? Destroying the source at all times resulted in the destruction of the body, I don't think that single moment will be a downgrade.
I remember this guy had something different compared to normal characters, but I don't remember what it was.
Click to expand...
Bro at this point just stop also physical body is just a manifestation even if it remains it's not a anti feat.
 
As DarkGrath said, if not all aspects of the self disappear after the source is destroyed, it can't be type 2. The fact that a body remains after death is clear proof that sources do not meet this criteria.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Character can just leave the corpse and create a new body. It's not something special. Fuji is asking something like you created a stick when you die stick should die too. Which is not logical arguments.
Click to expand...
Except I'm not the fundamental concept of a stick's existence, dummy. Bit of a false equivalency here.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Except I'm not the fundamental concept of a stick's existence, dummy. Bit of a false equivalency here.
Click to expand...
Not a false Equivalence here. Because Source is fundamental concepts of one's existence not a fundamental concepts of one body. Physical body is just a manifestation that's all. There is nowhere we (atleast as far as i remember) argued that Physical body is dependent on source. Character existence is dependent on source not body.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Not a false Equivalence here. Because Source is fundamental concepts of one's existence not a fundamental concepts of one body. Physical body is just a manifestation that's all. There is nowhere we (atleast as far as i remember) argued that Physical body is dependent on source. Character existence is dependent on source not body.
Click to expand...
Exactly. In order to be type 2, everything that relies on the source (body, mind, soul, etc) should disappear after the source is destroyed. But they obviously don't, which means sources can't be type 2.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Exactly. In order to be type 2, everything that relies on the source (body, mind, soul, etc) should disappear after the source is destroyed. But they obviously don't, which means sources can't be type 2.
Click to expand...
Again no one argued existence means body soul and mind. Source is fundamental existence ones not that it's a fundamental concepts of body mind and soul. Show me where it was stated as fundamental concepts of them?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Exactly. In order to be type 2, everything that relies on the source (body, mind, soul, etc) should disappear after the source is destroyed. But they obviously don't, which means sources can't be type 2.
Click to expand...
The body is not completely (in fact, it is not) necessary to be type 2 or 1, just that the concept is more fundamental than what it governs, the body does not need to be governed or destroyed along with the fundamental concept.
 
God900 said:
It happened quite some times, for example when Anos erased Eugo's source, nothing was left of him, no corpse, no mind, no soul.
Click to expand...
And this kind of thing that makes me kind of "resentful", I don't remember another character keeping his body even if the source is completely destroyed.

In fact, as far as I remember, fonts are in a kind of "white void" when they are destroyed (if not regenerated)? If I'm not mistaken, this character did not have the ability to regenerate his source, nor did he have a reincarnation spell.
 
God900 said:
It happened quite some times, for example when Anos erased Eugo's source, nothing was left of him, no corpse, no mind, no soul.
Click to expand...
Godsatoshi23 said:
Also in last episode of season 1 when anos source is destroyed his physical body also disappeared from battle field.
Click to expand...
That's not even the point because it's Existence itself is source Physical body is just a manifestation that's all. Source exists throughout the reality of the verse. Even if the world gets destroyed they won't.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
That's not even the point because it's Existence itself is source Physical body is just a manifestation that's all. Source exists throughout the reality of the verse. Even if the world gets destroyed they won't.
Click to expand...
"In fact, as far as I remember, fonts are in a kind of "white void" when they are destroyed (if not regenerated)? If I'm not mistaken, this character did not have the ability to regenerate his source, nor did he have a reincarnation spell."

Is this right?
 
Dog3352 said:
In fact, as far as I remember, fonts are in a kind of "white void" when they are destroyed (if not regenerated)? If I'm not mistaken, this character did not have the ability to regenerate his source, nor did he have a reincarnation spell.
Click to expand...
Pretty much, and OP tries to use this instance as an anti-feat.

We got more instances where the characters are completely annihilated, and just one where the "corpse" is left.

So even if It was the case of an Anti -feat, we can even call it an outlier, but that's not the case here, regardless
 
Dog3352 said:
"In fact, as far as I remember, fonts are in a kind of "white void" when they are destroyed (if not regenerated)? If I'm not mistaken, this character did not have the ability to regenerate his source, nor did he have a reincarnation spell."

Is this right?
Click to expand...
Anime shows destroying source resulting in destruction of physical body too. But I don't care actually. Because Existence of characters is governed by source and physical body is just manifestation to interact with Physical world.
 
God900 said:
Pretty much, and OP tries to use this instance as an anti-feat.

We got more instances where the characters are completely annihilated, and just one where the "corpse" is left.

So even if It was the case of an Anti -feat, we can even call it an outlier, but that's not the case here, regardless
Click to expand...
It's not an anti feat and not outlier OP doesn't understand what was the context actually. Ronzcrunz was using Noah's body. Noah gave his body to Ronzcrunz and went off somewhere. Ronzcrunz was using his root and Noah body. Then what was Noah using? He should have a created another body for himself. Yeah physical body is nothing less than manifestation object to interact with reality.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
It's not an anti feat and not outlier OP doesn't understand what was the context actually. Ronzcrunz was using Noah's body. Noah gave his body to Ronzcrunz and went off somewhere. Ronzcrunz was using his root and Noah body. Then what was Noah using? He should have a created another body for himself. Yeah physical body is nothing less than manifestation object to interact with reality.
Click to expand...
OP is not knowledgeable in the verse, nor has read the novel, so it's understandable.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
It's not an anti feat and not outlier OP doesn't understand what was the context actually. Ronzcrunz was using Noah's body. Noah gave his body to Ronzcrunz and went off somewhere. Ronzcrunz was using his root and Noah body. Then what was Noah using? He should have a created another body for himself. Yeah physical body is nothing less than manifestation object to interact with reality.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if that means the body would continue to maintain itself because the body's owner's source is still intact or something like that, but like you said, it's not really important.
 
God900 said:
OP is not knowledgeable in the verse, nor has read the novel, so it's understandable.
Click to expand...
Anos was saying this because Ronzcrunz was about die it's not even his real body. Anyway physical body is not ones Existence root is so it doesn't matter much.
　If the root disappears, the body of the tyrannical tyrant will turn into a mere corpse.
Click to expand...
Dog3352 said:
I'm not sure if that means the body would continue to maintain itself because the body's owner's source is still intact or something like that, but like you said, it's not really important.
Click to expand...
Root maintains ones existence not physical body. Just like I said I created something does not mean it should die alongside with me when I die. This is illogical.
 
God900 said:
A good re-read will help 🗿
Click to expand...
There are basically 700 chapters 😭

Even when it's Saturday and Sunday I can be busy with homework and school activities, and sometimes there's even class on Saturday, I'll hardly have time to read.

My bad memory really makes my life difficult, I kind of easily knew 95% of what the math teacher taught, and at other times, I even forget how to start calculating.
 
Dog3352 said:
There are basically 700 chapters 😭

Even when it's Saturday and Sunday I can be busy with homework and school activities, and sometimes there's even class on Saturday, I'll hardly have time to read.

My bad memory really makes my life difficult, I kind of easily knew 95% of what the math teacher taught, and at other times, I even forget how to start calculating.
Click to expand...

Oh, I only read the LN so I didn't know that

So MGK WN it's not like Isekai at Peace that each episodie is fairly short despite having 1400 chapters 💀💀
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Dog3352
  • Locked
Updating Source to CM type 1
Replies
9
Views
2K
EldemadeDityjon
EldemadeDityjon
AnosVoldigoadDemonKing
  • Locked
Additions for Anos Voldigoad
Replies
7
Views
3K
AnosVoldigoadDemonKing
AnosVoldigoadDemonKing
Guileal
Anos Voldigoad Immortality Type 6 removal
Replies
29
Views
3K
Tatsumi504
Tatsumi504
Tatsumi504
  • Locked
Maou Gakuin: Anos and Cosmology Additions
2 3
Replies
85
Views
10K
Tatsumi504
Tatsumi504
fandom_29dan
  • Locked
Maou Gakuin; In An Overarching View of the Light Novel's Scaling
Replies
5
Views
3K
EldemadeDityjon
EldemadeDityjon
Back
Top