Massive revisions to Sonic.exe

[TheShape03]

Finally, Joe has given an explanation about the timelines of his universe. Now officially called "The X-Verse".

To summarize:

• It has been confirmed that Lord X and 2011 X are the same character, instead of being characters from separate timelines.
• Broken_Face, Archive Y2K0724, Sonic Prototype 2017, and Sonic II Gaiden are part of this verse.
• It was confirmed in clear words that JC's works are no longer canonical. While we were already taking this into account due to multiple clues, this should serve as irrefutable proof.

So:

• There is very little information about Broken_Face, Archive Y2K0724, Sonic Prototype 2017, and Sonic II Gaiden. This is because their games/works are in progress, so there is not much information to add regarding those timelines.
• This is a new profile for Sonic.exe, which will replace this profile.
• Lord X's profile will be deleted.
• This is the new verse page for The X-Verse, which will replace this page.
• Soulless Sonic's verse page will be deleted.

Thoughts?

 

[DarkMatterEnergy254]

Agree

 

[Volt12121]

Seems clear and to the point, agreed

 

[Walker21232123]

Agree with the verse page.

I am feeling neutral about merging Lord X and 2011 as of now. Lord X and 2011 should be discussed more, as being in the same timeline does not equal being in one profile. For example, the Sonic from the game continuity has three profiles: Classic, Adventure, and Modern. All three of them are confirmed to be in the same timeline.

 

[TheShape03]

Agree with the verse page.

I am feeling neutral about merging Lord X and 2011 as of now. Lord X and 2011 should be discussed more, as being in the same timeline does not equal being in one profile. For example, the Sonic from the game continuity has three profiles: Classic, Adventure, and Modern. All three of them are confirmed to be in the same timeline.

However, that's because the canonical Sonic would simply have too many keys and it would be awkward to have him in one profile. As far as I recall, there was originally only one Sonic profile, then it was split into two (Classic and Modern) and then Modern was split into two (Adventure and Modern). Also because Sonic gains more abilities and power as time goes on.

Having two Sonic.exe profiles would be absurdly unnecessary, because they are both exactly the same and do not gain more abilities or power over time, in fact, he is used to not putting in effort instead of constantly training. There is also no evidence that he has become stronger, and to top it off, several of his best feats, such as the creation of his dimension, actually come from the 2011 era.

 

[Javenplayz253]

Lord X's profile will be deleted.

F in the chat for Lord X and his verse page
Jokes aside,
Agree.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

Agreed with almost all of the points mentioned, the only one I disagree with is that I still think 2011 and Lord X should be split into two profiles or at least have two keys separating the two.

This is primarily because I think Joe makes it obvious that Lord X is way more powerful and skilled than 2011 (in addition, we haven't seen any statements about 2011 having limitless abilities like Lord), but abilities such as Reality Warping would carry over to the latter as both have the same foundation of their abilities.

I do also think there should be a larger CRT on Sonic.exe/Lord X's powers, such as more information on how their universal ratings apply to their profiles and a separate page on VOID Matter/VOID Energy, as that's an in-universe energy that should probably be elaborated on.

Other than that, everything looks solid and I can give some recommendations for what the pages could be renamed to.

• Sonic.exe (Canon), would stay as is as it's self explanatory.
• Lord X, could either stay as it is now or just have more specification like Sonic.exe (Lord X) or Lord X (Sonic.exe) if we go by VS Battles Wiki's page differentiation styles.
• Sonic.exe (Verse), could stay as is since it's an overall metaseries name too, but The X-Verse could work if that's the actual official name Joe, Astra and Raven came up with for the entire verse. Nevermind, it should just be X-Verse:
  .

 

[Diamond_Drone]

Agreed with almost all of the points mentioned, the only one I disagree with is that I still think 2011 and Lord X should be split into two profiles or at least have two keys separating the two.

This is primarily because I think Joe makes it obvious that Lord X is way more powerful and skilled than 2011 (in addition, we haven't seen any statements about 2011 having limitless abilities like Lord), but abilities such as Reality Warping would carry over to the latter as both have the same foundation of their abilities.

That's why Keys exist, to seperate power of the character from different points in time, transformations, etc.

Anyways, Agreed with this point, given how often it's been stated that Lord X is strong while 2011 didn't really get that.

This is a new profile for Sonic.exe, which will replace this profile.

This is more of an aesthetic complaint, but I'd prefer if the image tabber was seperated by 2011 sonic and Lord X. Not only would it help indicate that these are the same characters while also being way easier to navigate, but it also wouldn't be bloated with the same copy-and-pasted quote in every single image tabber-within-tabber.

 

[TheShape03]

This is primarily because I think Joe makes it obvious that Lord X is way more powerful and skilled than 2011

You'd have to send me an example.

1- There is absolutely zero evidence that X has increased his power in the 10 years since Sonic 2011 to Sonic PC.
2- He's used to not putting in any effort. He doesn't train or do anything that justifies an increase in power, so the reasoning that he could have gotten stronger loses some force.
3- It's funny because actually, one of his best feats comes from the 2011 era.

in addition, we haven't seen any statements about 2011 having limitless abilities like Lord

Irrelevant, they became the same character now, so that statement now holds true for 2011. Not to mention that statement was made when Lord X was still his own character, so Joe wasn't trying to make a distinction between Lord X and his younger self, because at the time there was no such younger self (2011).

Another thing is, Lord X's Cult of X profile talks about events from Lord X's birth (2011 era) to the SonicPC era, and yet mentions his limitless abilities and how he restrains himself in his "games" for fun. So, it doesn't seem like they're making a distinction about the power of both eras.

but I'd prefer if the image tabber was seperated by 2011 sonic and Lord X

The 2011 image is on Vessel's tabber, because that's what it is, it's exactly the same as this, but younger. Not to mention that he has access to the same forms as Lord X, so giving him a separate tabber would make anyone reading it think they are different characters.

 

[Diamond_Drone]

Irrelevant, they became the same character now, so that statement now holds true for 2011. Not to mention that statement was made when Lord X was still his own character, so Joe wasn't trying to make a distinction between Lord X and his younger self, because at the time there was no such younger self (2011).

Doesn't the OP state that they were from seperate timelines originally or something? Then why were they scaled differently if they're the same entity in different circumstances?

Plus characters scaling to their future selves that have better experience and feats without any evidence is generally not the default assumption, even with high tier characters. Point being this is a weak reason to avoid giving them seperate keys, Lord X has better feats and comes later in the timeline, 2011 shouldn't scale in stats.

The 2011 image is on Vessel's tabber, because that's what it is, it's exactly the same as this, but younger. Not to mention that he has access to the same forms as Lord X, so giving him a separate tabber would make anyone reading it think they are different characters.

No, it'd say that it's from two seperate eras of X, a younger one and an older one who shows more variation with their Vessel. Why would anyone think they are "seperate characters" if they are on the same profile page?

 

[TheShape03]

Doesn't the OP state that they were from seperate timelines originally or something?

Lord X was always a continuation, that's basically what he was made for. There was just no direct statement that Joe made Lord X a canonical continuation of the main timeline, forcing us to keep Lord X as an alternate timeline (But even taking into account that the events of 2011 occurred in his timeline). However, Lord X being a canonical continuation was something I had planned for pretty much since SONIC 2011 came out in March 2023.

Then why were they scaled differently if they're the same entity in different circumstances?

They are the same entity, 10 years apart.

Plus characters scaling to their future selves that have better experience and feats without any evidence is generally not the default assumption, even with high tier characters.

Lord X doesn't have better feats, he has more experience, the Low 2-C feat comes from the 2011 era when X was born. You'd have to prove that Lord X became more powerful in that time. Especially since during those 10 years he didn't put in the slightest effort into anything.

No, it'd say that it's from two seperate eras of X, a younger one and an older one who shows more variation with their Vessel. Why would anyone think they are "seperate characters" if they are on the same profile page?

The idea of that tabber is to separate the different forms of Lord X, the 2011 vessel would still go in the vessel tabber, it does not deserve its own tabber because it is not a different form of Lord X, it is a variation of an already existing form.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

1- There is absolutely zero evidence that X has increased his power in the 10 years since Sonic 2011 to Sonic PC.
2- He's used to not putting in any effort. He doesn't train or do anything that justifies an increase in power, so the reasoning that he could have gotten stronger loses some force.

It's a recurring theme in the story that X has gotten used to using his powers more and that's why he's so feared as Lord X, he just has a better grip on what he can do. It just seems strange to use something that applies to a future counterpart without it ever being clarified the other way around.

3- It's funny because actually, one of his best feats comes from the 2011 era.

Not really, there's nothing stating that his dimension is a universe or is universe-sized. The only justifications I've seen about it are linked to the Lord X page, which is this:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220425040912/https://twitter.com/losermakesgames/status/1518441776939339776

The problem I have with using this statement is that the context of this message is referring to his continuity and not his actual dimension.

This is also the case with other times he's mentioned "universes", which again, refer to different continuities. For reference, every single other usage Joe has used for describing X's place is as a "dimension", "sub-universe", "domain" and most commonly "world". Creating his dimension shouldn't be a universal or above feat because of the fact that there's not enough evidence for this.

There are a lot of flaws with current Lord X scaling (like him having Higher-Dimensional Existence due to being born inside of the Void, when Nonexistent Physiology would feel more in line with what is described about him) but that should be saved for a future CRT.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

The idea of that tabber is to separate the different forms of Lord X, the 2011 vessel would still go in the vessel tabber, it does not deserve its own tabber because it is not a different form of Lord X, it is a variation of an already existing form.

I still think two keys for 2011 and Lord X should be made because of what I said before.

 

[TheShape03]

This is also the case with other times he's mentioned "universes", which again, refer to different continuities. For reference, every single other usage Joe has used for describing X's place is as a "dimension", "sub-universe", "domain" and most commonly "world". Creating his dimension shouldn't be a universal or above feat because of the fact that there's not enough evidence for this.

Fair. However, here they refer to their world as "world" while in the same text they refer to the human universe as "our world", which is actually good evidence for treating Lord X's dimension as a universe, being that "world" can also be used as such and the verse refers to the dimension of humans as a world as well.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

Fair. However, here they refer to their world as "world" while in the same text they refer to the human universe as "our world", which is actually good evidence for treating Lord X's dimension as a universe, being that "world" can also be used as such and the verse refers to the dimension of humans as a world as well.

I just think it shouldn't be used as such because of the inconsistencies mentioned above. If Joe was more consistent or just came out saying that X's dimension was indeed a universe, then it would have more credibility.

Also "our world" could just be referring to well... Earth.

 

[TheShape03]

It's a recurring theme in the story that X has gotten used to using his powers more and that's why he's so feared as Lord X, he just has a better grip on what he can do. It just seems strange to use something that applies to a future counterpart without it ever being clarified the other way around.

We don't assume a character has gotten stronger over time without evidence to prove it. The best examples of characters having different keys over time (Goku, Sonic, etc) are justified because they are constantly increasing in power.

I just think it shouldn't be used as such because of the inconsistencies mentioned above.

You didn't mention any inconsistencies, Joe calling X's world a "dimension", "domain" and "sub-universe" doesn't contradict it having a universal size.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

You didn't mention any inconsistencies, Joe calling X's world a "dimension", "domain" and "sub-universe" doesn't contradict it having a universal size.

But where is the proof of it being universe-sized in the first place? Again you need to prove that first.
There is nothing I have found relating to Mainline .EXE media that states this.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

We don't assume a character has gotten stronger over time without evidence to prove it. The best examples of characters having different keys over time (Goku, Sonic, etc) are justified because they are constantly increasing in power.

I'll just leave it to whenever the CRT about it gets made, we do also need a VOID Physiology page so we can better group all the abilities together.

 

[TheShape03]

But where is the proof of it being universe-sized in the first place? Again you need to prove that first.
There is nothing I have found relating to Mainline .EXE media that states this.

The fact that they refer to both the human universe and X's world as "world".

 

[TheShape03]

I'll just leave it to whenever the CRT about it gets made, we do also need a VOID Physiology page so we can better group all the abilities together.

While I think a page for that would be cool, I don't think it's allowed to make a page for a physiology that only one character is going to have.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

While I think a page for that would be cool, I don't think it's allowed to make a page for a physiology that only one character is going to have.

The Seven Guardians and EXE are also made of VOID matter since they're made from X's matter itself, so it would also be used for them in the future.

The fact that they refer to both the human universe and X's world as "world".

Like I said before, it's too vague to be used. You can't exactly link these buzz-words because I just proved before that they're inconsistent. For all we know, "world" could just be referring to Earth as that's also another place we call our world and there needs to be more proof that the context refers to a universe.

There is nothing on the page specifying that it is referring to the entire universe.

 

[TheShape03]

The Seven Guardians and EXE are also made of VOID matter since they're made from X's matter itself, so it would also be used for them in the future.

For a moment I forgot about the existence of the guardians.

Like I said before, it's too vague to be used.

If Joe uses the word "world" to refer to a universe, then if he uses it again to describe something else in the same text, he'll be referring to a universe as well.

For all we know, "world" could just be referring to Earth as that's also another place we call our world

He doesn't, by using that word he describes the effects that Lord X has when he enters our universe, that is, only being able to stay for a short period of time before being kicked out.

When X comes into our world, he can only remain for a short period of time. If you can last long enough without being caught by it, X will be sucked back into its world.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

If Joe uses the word "world" to refer to a universe, then if he uses it again to describe something else in the same text, he'll be referring to a universe as well.

I'll also bring this up again too but he explicitly uses the term "sub-universe" to describe X's world and differentiates it from "your universe", rather than just saying "its/his universe" to refer to it.


Keep in mind this is both newer than the CoX Wiki page and is actually directly stated by Joe himself. I'd much rather believe something coming from the direct Word of God over a dead wiki page with little to no changes since December 2021 and that also happens to be gone from the internet forever.

I won't talk much about this anymore and I'll wait for more people on the thread to reply about it and make arguments, but I'm still on the strongly disagreeing end of the argument because there's more damning evidence against it than for it.

 

[TheShape03]

I'll also bring this up again too but he explicitly uses the term "sub-universe"

However, we have no idea what "sub-universe" means. It could mean anything.

 

[El_rapero_de_tf2]

I'll also bring this up again too but he explicitly uses the term "sub-universe" to describe X's world

Joe has also referred to it as "Universe" and "World"
whatever he knows as a "Sub-Universe" is no different than both of these terms

 

[TheShape03]

"Universe"

The thing is that the "universe" scan refers to the continuity to which X belongs, not to his world. That's why it's a scan we can't use.

 

[TheShape03]

I still don't think the "Sub-Universe" statement contradicts X's universe being universal in size, especially since that word could mean anything within the verse.

Not to mention the reasoning I gave here:

If Joe uses the word "world" to refer to a universe, then if he uses it again to describe something else in the same text, he'll be referring to a universe as well.

If there is indeed something that contradicts his world being universal in size, then I'd be fine with dropping it to High 3-A. However, I am against separating into keys.

To quote the Standard Format for Character Profiles page:

Key: For characters who have transformation stages/power-ups or who become stronger through certain points of the story, insert those transformations/power-ups/timelines here in bold.

There would have to be evidence that X became stronger over the course of those ten years.

 

[El_rapero_de_tf2]

in case anybody's wondering why shape is saying "There would have to be evidence that X became stronger over the course of those ten years."
It was never even implied that X's top tier was 9-A, in fact, it's gotten from Tails/Alan, which is why it has "At least 9-A" on its profile

 

[OculoOmnibus]

I think I'll help work on a larger CRT based on this one that includes the things discussed in here, including a vote for all the universal arguments and the one Shape presented.

in case anybody's wondering why shape is saying "There would have to be evidence that X became stronger over the course of those ten years."
It was never even implied that X's top tier was 9-A, in fact, it's gotten from Tails/Alan, which is why it has "At least 9-A" on its profile

My problem isn't so much as to upgrading X but really just Shape wanting to merge their keys. I think just having one key for 2011 and another for Lord X/Soulless Sonic works fine, but we should just be absolutely sure that 2011 and Lord are at the same level of power.

 

[TheShape03]

I think I'll help work on a larger CRT based on this one that includes the things discussed in here, including a vote for all the universal arguments and the one Shape presented.

It's good to have you back here.

My problem isn't so much as to upgrading X but really just Shape wanting to merge their keys. I think just having one key for 2011 and another for Lord X/Soulless Sonic works fine, but we should just be absolutely sure that 2011 and Lord are at the same level of power.

There's nothing to merge because they were never different keys. We currently accept 2011 as something within Lord X's profile and did not separate him into keys.

Since they are the same character, with a time difference in which he was accustomed to never exerting himself nor was his power shown to change, we have no reason to split him into keys. The passage of time does not equal a power increase without more.

If we have a character who never exerts himself nor are there statements proving that he has become more powerful, assuming that he has become stronger requires a lot more assumptions than simply saying that he remains the same in power. And Occam's razor supports my point.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

It's good to have you back here.

I only really jumped in because I wanted to keep a lot of things organized (I have huge OCD in real life lol), but yeah I just need to make a sandbox for some things and we should be good.

Since they are the same character, with a time difference in which he was accustomed to never exerting himself nor was his power shown to change, we have no reason to split him into keys. The passage of time does not equal a power increase without more.

But considering he gained some new abilities not seen in his 2011 self (like making .EXEs/slaves, which 2011 could not do), he'd at the very minimum need a key in Powers and Abilities for his Lord X stuff.

 

[TheShape03]

I only really jumped in because I wanted to keep a lot of things organized (I have huge OCD in real life lol), but yeah I just need to make a sandbox for some things and we should be good.

Oh I see, take it easy anyway.

But considering he gained some new abilities not seen in his 2011 self (like making .EXEs/slaves, which 2011 could not do), he'd at the very minimum need a key in Powers and Abilities for his Lord X stuff.

Not having used those abilities in a game you can finish in 10 minutes (which only covers about 0.0002% of the 10 years Exe was off-screen) doesn't mean he doesn't have them. It means we just didn't see him use them, or he was inexperienced enough with his powers to not have known how to use them properly.

 

[Walker21232123]

This is the new verse page for The X-Verse, which will replace this page.

Technically, Lord Mortis is the same character as 2011 X because Lord Mortis is from a split timeline from 2011, which x loses his realm due his arrogance. Therefore, all feats from Sonic 2011 should apply to Mortis. So, the Power of Verse for Sonic II Gaiden should state that Lord Mortis is 'Universe level+' as he created his entire dimension.

 

[TheShape03]

Technically, Lord Mortis is the same character as 2011 X because Lord Mortis is from a split timeline from 2011, which x loses his realm due his arrogance. Therefore, all feats from Sonic 2011 should apply to Mortis. So, the Power of Verse for Sonic II Gaiden should state that Lord Mortis is 'Universe level+' as he created his entire dimension.

Understood, I'll add it.

 

[OculoOmnibus]

Alright I got the thread out here.