Massive Noblesse Downgrades

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So when i created all these profiles a year ago i didn't fully understand exactly how our tiering system works as a result a lot of the profiles are incorrect. There are also some other things i think need to be addressed. This gonna be a long post.

Attack Potency

Besides Mary all the profiles ap are incorrect, most of it is based on frankenstein cutting a building:




The gap between small building level and building level is 50x so virtually most of the characters should fit in there as they have no feats above this. So krantz and dr aris should be "At least small building level" for being able to beat sealed frankenstein.

There is a feat later on of a character shaking a building with a punch:






This should scale to unsealed frakenstein, base rael and regis and yuri as they are stronger than ked who performed this feat, so they should be "At least building level".

Now on to the higher tiers, the feat which rael and regis performed that came out to be small country level is an outlier. For one the size of the island which they are on was incredibly inconsistent, in one panel it is shown to be very small and in another it has mountains. I posted the scans of it in this thread awhile back. Also a feat on this level has never been replicated by even the top tiers including raizel as his blood phonix which was calc at multi-continet level was inconsistent as the blast seem to be multi-continent level yet didn't destroy the city he was in. So regis with legasus, rael with incomplete grandia, takeo, tao and m-21 should only be "At least building level".

The high tiers should subsequently also get downgraded, but not to "At least building level" but "Mountain level" as they have shown mountain level feats practically every fight. I posted a couple in the same thread above. Raizel, muzaka, raizel's brother and the lord should also get downgraded, but to Island level as in the fight between raizel and muzaka their clash engulfed an entire island. This is also in that other thread thread

Speed Now for speed pretty much everyone should get downgrade to At least supersonic+, the only definitive speed feat in the series is from mary dodging bullets:









Frankenstein kept up with mary, and kranz should be as fast as frankenstein so supersonic for mary, base krantz and sealed frankenstein. Krantz is said to have gotten 2x as fast and strong after absorbing shark so supersonic+ for krantz and pretty much everyone who scales from him. Also raizel, muzaka, raizel's brother and the lord should be downgraded from mhs+, the reasoning for assuming it took musaka some seconds to go from the werewolf country to lukedonia is not concrete it assumes he reached that quick cause the sun was still up and he reached as a leaf was moving or something, it's making a lot of assumptions. Now a more reasonable speed for base raizel and subsequently everyone who scales from him is this one which places him at mhs.

Edit: That calc can't be used because it was never stated that lukedonia is the bermuda triangle, it was only stated that it is located in the bermuda triangle:




Raizel and the lord did cross an island nonetheless but an island of unknown size so i don't know if we can use this feat, if we can't we will just have to put them at At least supersonic+

Some minor things

Raizel, muzaka, frankenstein don't have resistance to soul manipulation, soul manipulation isn't even used in the way that like say destroying a soul, in noblesse they have soul weapons passed down from their predecessors who put their souls in them, but that's all. Also minor reality warping should be taken from raizel, don't even know where that came from he has never reality warped. Also raizel's techniques need to be reworked some it far overestimates raizel, raizel has never erased someone above his level and he has never killed anyone on his level using his blood manipulation so it seems to only be minor blood manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems reasonable.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Added some more stuff so bumping this.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Seems ok.

 

[LazyHunter]

The downgrades make sense.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

For the island crossing feat, the island isn't as big as the bermuda triangle but it has been shown to have various mountain areas can we assume it to be an average sized island in the bermuda triangle and then calc the distance to go from the center of it to it's end?

Edit: That feat should be scrapped as well cause it also isn't definitive, it was never stated that lord's castle is in the direct center of the island, that is also again another assumption.

 

[Blahblah9755]

The DA-5 (Tao, Takeo, Shark, and co.) might be more impressive than this. Their weapons could do this: http://www.*********.co/manga/noblesse/v02/c107/

And M-21 pretty much states that they're physically more impressive than their weapons: http://www.*********.co/manga/noblesse/v02/c113/16.html

And iirc, Dr Aris's weaponry and armor is meant to be better than theirs and she also destroyed a good chunk of a large building in the fight with Frankenstein, but I could be misremembering this bit.

I believe a clash in the fight between Rael and (casual) Frankenstein also destroyed a pretty large area, I'm looking for the scan of that now.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That first scan seems vague to me we don't know if shark did that in one attack and the others might have helped him.

They are said to be stronger than an average army, supersonic+, small building level characters should be able to do that against an average army i think.

Dr Aris feat wasn't anything impressive from what i remember all it did was take of the top of a building so small building level.

From what i remember rael was using his soul weapon and frankenstein his dark spear and it make a huge hole, people like frankenstein show mountain level feats every fight so that's not impressive plus i remember it being calc on naruto forums and coming out to mcb level.

Besides the top tiers there are no feats above building level, rael with grandia and regis with legasus we can maybe put at city level as rael was able to fight frankenstein albeit frankenstein wasn't serious but with half a soul weapon they should be relatively close to those with full soul weapons i think.

 

[Blahblah9755]

I just took another look at that and realized it was just a hill on fire, not an explosion, my bad.

Aris cut a couple floors off a large building sending them flying into the air, wouldn't that generally qualify for building level?

Yuriy also vaporized a good chunk of a few large buildings: http://www.*********.co/manga/noblesse/v02/c148/3.html

As for Rael, he tanked the explosion and seemingly contributed to it evenly, and Frankenstein wasn't serious, I just thought the "at least building level" you put in the OP was too low considering that feat.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

All Dr. Aris did was cut off the top of a building doesn't seem more than small building level to me.

Yuri just pierced through the top of multiple buildings not destroy the entire building so again doesn't seem more than small building level to me but piercing through multiple of them might warrant building level, not sure.

That blast went through multiple buildings in a few seconds wonder if we can use that to find their speed? Doubtful it will be anything more than supersonic though.

As i said above earlier i also think it's a bit low so i suggest we put rael with grandia, regis with legasus and grui and gaitan at city level for rael being able to take on frankenstein even though he wasn't serious and the fact that with half a soul weapon rael should be close to being as strong as someone with a full soul weapon.

 

[Blahblah9755]

I was thinking since it was sent flying 15-30 meters into the air the KE of that might get into building level

With one of those buildings Yuri seemed to vaporize most of three floors which I thought could be building level. The speed is probably just subsonic or subsonic+, it looked like it only crossed a hundred or so meters at best.

Yeah, I'm fine with that for Rael and co, I just wanted to clarify.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Well i am not a calc member so i don't know if sending it 15 meters in the air will result in building level.

Also don't know about yuri vaporizing those floors. We need some input on those.

 

[Blahblah9755]

I've asked about them on the calc request thread, for now everything else we've discussed/you suggested is fine with me.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Bump

 

[RockerMDS]

With regard to speed, it is implied that Muzaka took very little time to accomplish the feat, although time has not been said. As for the calculation, it seems to me right. And I see no reason to demote the God Tiers to supersonic +


"Raizel never erased or killed someone stronger than him with blood manipulation." Greetings? What the ****! He's the strongest man yet, of course he never killed anyone stronger than him. Just so you're going to assume it's not functional in someone stronger than him? Should we apply this logic in any occasion of any work? This does not make sense, hemocinesis or telepathy does not have its functionality denied by being stronger than the user of such, but denied by resistance to such.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

There isn't really any evidence of how long it took all we saw is muzaka leave the werewolf country which we don't even know where it is, but i made the arguement that it would most likely be in south america, who knows it could be in the carribean for all we know so that's speculative, also all we saw is like muzaka leaving the werewolf country and then a leaf and then he appears, that doesn't prove anything it could have taken him hours to accomplish the feat, not to mention that pretty much a feat on this scale has never been replicated, it always takes a while for the characters to go from place to place.

Calm down, raizel is the strongest so of course he has never used it on anyone stronger than him, however raizel has never used his blood manipulation to one shot anyone in the sense of say making someone's heart explode, he did make ignes eyes burst and made lagsus get some cuts but that's all he has done with it. It is either raizel is plagued by pis or cis or he has really crap blood manipulation, because if he can burst blood vessels i don't see why he hasn't aimed it at someone's heart already.

 

[RockerMDS]

Since Laugus was mentioned, remember that Raizel was weak because of the fight against him. Weakened by your weakness, you know what it is.


As for Muzaka, I realize that time was not mentioned. But I do not think it took hours, mostly because there was no change in the day. But you're right, time was not given, but I consider it as a strong possibility to have been done in a very small time.

And the fact not having been repeated does not mean anything.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Whether he was weak or not is irrelevant, the point is that raizel has never shown blood control on a level where he reverses the blood flow in someone's body and burst their heart or anything like that, we need proof of such things and until we have proof we have to go by what he has been shown to do so far which indicates that his blood control is only minor.

Again we don't even know where the werewolf country is in the first place so we can't accurately gauge the feat, cause we don't know the distance, and on top of that no time frame was given so we also don't know how long it took muzaka to perform the feat.

The fact that such a feat hasn't been repeated means that this feat isn't consistent with regular showings of the characters, the feat itself is vague, we don't know the distance and it could have taken him hours. The characters usually take hours if not days to go from place to place, when raizel and frankenstein went to lukedonia they took an airplane and didn't just go there themselves, when regis was kidnapped and taken to ignes's island it took them a couple days to reach the island and even raizel and frankenstein didn't just reach there in a second, same thing again when lunark, frankenstein and muzaka went to the werewolf's country, they didn't just do it in seconds it took them a while.

 

[RockerMDS]

Well, Raizel has never really demonstrated the ability to do that. I particularly apply their hemocinese only to what it has demonstrated ability to do.


I really understand that the time or place was not precisely mentioned, but even though I am not an expert on this, I have already done some calculations showing that the distance from where Raizel lives to Lukedonia or Werewolf Parents is greater than the distance between The country of the werewolves to Lukedonia.

Obviously considering that the location of werewolf parents is, in fact, South America. Also considering that the distances between countries shown in the places where I went was right.

Perhaps that would explain the inconstancy of the deeds.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Werewolf Parents? What is that? I myself already speculated that the werewolf country was in south american because of it not being in north america cause muzaka has never been there and not being in antartica, either way though the feat isn't usuable imo it requires far too many assumptions also added to the fact that again a feat of this level has never been replicated as characters take time to go from place to place and don't just do it in seconds.

 

[RockerMDS]

Werewolf Parents? I did not even realize I'd written that.

I referred to the country of the werewolves.

Basically I had said that the distance traveled in most of the feats is something greater than the necessary distance between South America to Lukedonia, considering that it stays in the bermuda triangle

I justified this as something to be evaluated when mentioning the inconstancy between the feats, but I understand that would be too much supposition.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Well we don't even know where in the bermuda triangle lukedonia is, only that it is in the bermuda triangle so yea that would be making a lot of suppositions. Do you agree with everything else besides their speed? Clan leaders and werewolves should be large mountain level because of thier feats i think.

 

[RockerMDS]

With regard to speed I agree with a calculation linked by you, where Raizel based the MHS.

With regard to destructive power, I believe you are right on most factors, but in 80% of cases I disagree with things considered Outlier. Unless it's in HQ'S where it really is stupidly present.

Yes, clan leaders and werewolves reach large mountain level.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

For that mhs calc it assumes raizel and the lord came from the direct center of the island which i guess you could say is correct given the lord said they had to come "all the way up here", however it uses the bermuda triangle as the size of lukedonia which is wrong, lukedonia isn't the bermuda triangle but an island located inside the bermuda triangle so that feat isn't usable, i mean we could do something i think if we got the average size of an island in the bermuda triangle and used that instead.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Well, like I mentioned, I thought that the suggested changes seem reasonable.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Can i perform the changes now then?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Oh wait before that, it was asked in the calc request thread about what it would take to vaporized a few sections of a building and it came out to small town level i think, this would put a number of the characters above building level however i think the calc probably needs to be checked, more precisely we need a calc in blog post, though if a calc member agrees that vaporizing that much would have to at least be small town level then we can just go with that.

 

[Antvasima]

It is probably okay if you perform the changes, yes.

However, avoid scaling from any calculations that cannot be linked to in blog form, and that have not been accepted.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ok i will perform the changes then

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So looking back over the manhwa i have found a potential speed upgrade. It is from ludis reacting to several rounds from 127MM naval guns, i will ask to get it calc.