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Massive MLP AP CRT.

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The_2nd_Existential_Seed

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

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Based on the events of Journal of Two Sisters it may potentially upgrade any Celestia Level or above person to High 4-C. Here is the scan below:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/313849534843191296/612781023994052638/unknown.png

"But Raising the Sun and lowering the Moon weren't the only things Celie and I had to fix today. Poor Star Swirl's and the rest of the Unicorns' magic needed to be restored. Thankfully, with all the power we'd gotten from the Sun and Moon, Celie and I were able to return their magic to them without any problem."

This is important as it's clear that they raised the sun. This is important because a calc results in how many performed the feat that is at least in the thousands (https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/my-little-pony-the-sonic-rainboom.1151009/page-2#post-59287925) which if roughly calced:

  • A 4-C feat was done by 5-6 Unicorns together everyday.
  • Baseline 4-C is 5x away from High 4-C, meaning in order to become High 4-C there has to be at least about 25-30 Unicorns being restored to place it at High 4-C.
  • Splitting the effort from them as it was implied to be effortless due to the 'without any problem' aspect, it results in there being in the thousands of unicorns' magics being restored to them, which about 25-30 Unicorns doing the feat results in them being 10,0000 the level of 4-C they are currently at.
  • 10,000/25 = 400x into the High 4-C tier. And this is just for Celestia, not mentioning beings far above her in-canon.
This not only solidifies just how far above the feat they are, but is massively supported by just how easy moving the sun is viewed by Celestia several times throughout the show. The calc only assumes it was Canterlot being as it actually affected all of Equestria which the number of Unicorns doing the feat would be massively above what we have here, but also is assuming that Canterlot isn't dominantly Unicorns [which it is consistently referred to as]
 
Also, reposting this here:

5.693e41 is baseline 4-C. Since it takes 6 Unicorns to move the Sun, we divide by 6 to find out how strong each Unicorn is.

Oh, and I just talked with the guy who did the calc and we came to the conclusion that dividing the population of Canterlot by 6 is completely unnecessary, meaning Celestia can restore the magic of 10,749 low 4-Cs. Which comes out to 1.01990095e45 joules. Holy shit. And this was casual for them too.
 
I think my version is easier though since it shows how many are needed to hit High 4-C based on the average level of star level and saying it takes about 25-30 number of Unicorns who performed the feat [since about 5-6 reach 4-C by performing the feat together and multiply that by 5 to reach 25-30 and thusly High 4-C since 4-C is roughly 5x away to reach High 4-C] to reach that level through just simple multiplication , but the level just changed dramatically since it's 10,000 as opposed to my meager 2000 assumption.

Also because I don't know joules very well since I'm honestly not the best calc person. But I can usually guess really accurately where some feats lie based on visuals.
 
Okay I divided te joules you got Light and baseline 4-C based on joules. I got:

1768x above basline 4-C. If we divide that by 5 since around 5x 4-C gives us high 4-c that still gives between 350x and 400x above High 4-C... So It's still decently above High 4-C and supports both of our versions of the same calc being into High 4-C decently. Nice..
 
This all seems fine and all, except for one problem: the comics aren't the main canon.

Though I think something like, "At least 4-C, possibly High 4-C," with all the explanation needed, would be fine.

Also, the link didn't explain why there are only thousands of ponies. I'd think there are more. Enough for them to be at 4-B. And at the very least, characters like The PoS, Tirek, RP, etc., should be At least 4-C/High 4-C, possibly 4-B.
 
The statement comes from the Jurney of Two SIsters diary... Not the comics. This merely gives detail about the event and how Starswirl gained his magic back.

Alright fair assumption.

Hmm... Can you prove this point ? I would like to think there is enough but that'd imply it's near the millions.
 
GokuSparkle said:
This all seems fine and all, except for one problem: the comics aren't the main canon.
Also, the link didn't explain why there are only thousands of ponies. I'd think there are more. Enough for them to be at 4-B. And at the very least, characters like The PoS, Tirek, RP, etc., should be At least 4-C/High 4-C, possibly 4-B.
Click to expand...
The Books are still allowed. The comic books are not, although I still vehemently disagree with how we treat them.

Do you have an account on Narutoforums? Because I think I know what you're talking about. The link didn't take you to the comment did it? Yeah that happens, for some reason the number of pages on a thread changes if you are signed in or not. Here is his comment, with some minor edits:

Volt manta said:
Just did a lazy calc:
According to the wiki, inspiration for Canterlot was the English city of Canterbury http://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/Canterlot (According to Lauren Faust, Canterlot was originally called "Canterbury", after the historical English city, and the name "Canterlot" was suggested by her husband Craig McCracken.) According to 2001 census population the population of Canterbury was 43,432. Really small for a modern city, so I don't feel too bad extrapolating from it. Average population of children is around 25% according to a number of sources, which makes 75% adult

43,432×0.75= 32,574

Next part's tricky. We don't know exactly the amount of earth pony and pegasi wandering around Canterlot in comparison to unicorns. It's more than likely not 100, so i'm just going to be conservative and say 2/3 of adult ponies were unicorns, with a high end being 85% (Canterlot has always been Unicorn exclusive, so this is still lowballing)

32,574x 0.66= 21,498

32,574x 0.85= 27,687

Celestia and Luna get half each

21,498/2= 10,749


27,687/2= 13,843.5

So low end is 10,749x the value they ordinarily use to move the sun and moon, high end is 13,843x.


I also lowballed the population of unicorns, since modern Canterlot is depicted as unicorn dominant to the point where the population could be said to be 9/10's unicorn, and it wouldn't be extremist. Ponies were more racially exclusive back in the day, not less.
Click to expand...
 
I see. The reason I'm asking is if millions are used in the equation it is extremely likely they'd hit 4-B... or would be so extremely close that some of the multipliers in the show would result in the tier. So I would like to have a good amount of evidence so I can maybe edit it into the OP.
 
Holy crap. Just a question: Does this still mean we're gonna keep people like Starswirl, Twilight etc at Low 4-C?

Otherwise, with this characters like Discord get to borderline 4-B depending on our estimates of 300-400x baseline High 4-C, and the top tiers like Full Power Tirek, the Elements, the Pony of Shadows, Rainbow Power, All-Alicorn Twilight and etc are definitely 4-B.
 
Yes.

Too bad they'd be baselines. I hate upgrades to the next tier if you're gonna be the weakest in it. It's not like they'd have to be the strongest, but they'd be punching bags for pretty much everyone else in it.
 
Yeah, though they still have a lot of hax that could be useful in certain fights. I'm just happy for more upgrades, I've been thinking about how casually the princesses move the sun recently and how we could translate that to a potential higher tier, but I was beaten to it!
 
Okay then:

I multiplier the baseline of High 4-C x 400 to figure out how close that is to 4-B = (3.182x10^42)x400= 1.2728e45

Baseline 4-B (2.277x1045) / (The level of High 4-C Celestia and Luna would be at by themselves) 1.2728e45=... 1.78896920176

... Holy Crap. If this is accepted it'd only take them to be 2x stronger than a [not even trying] Celestia or Luna separately to become 4-B.
 
I also agree from what I've seen. Though personally I don't think with this upgrade that the lower Alicorns and Starswirl could realistically be hundreds of times weaker. I would still put them below Celestia & Luna, but I feel like they're probably 4-C. That's just me though, there's no real legitimate evidence for that and I understand not changing it.

Still though, this is great, 4-B Ponies was always the true goal way back in the day, 4-C was just the compromise. Well, the true goal was Celestia & Luna being 4-B, but High 4-C very close to 4-B is good enough for now.

This would make:

Rainbow Power

The Elements of Harmony

The Pony of Shadows

Full Power Tirek

Post-Discord Tirek

All-Alicorn Twilight

The Storm King w/ The Staff of Sacanas

Grogar

Possibly Discord and Post-Mane 6 Lord Tirek

All Solar System Level I believe. Am I missing anybody? The Crystal Heart may also be in the possibly I guess.
 
I think it would affect Celestia as well considering they said it was no problem to do said feat and didn't lose any power as a result of doing it , or "At least High 4-C [did the feat] , possibly 4-B[views the feat as very casual, which may imply they are 2x stronger]" or more ambitiously just 4-B via being far stronger than said feat.

Under the possibly it'd affect the God-Tiers of EqGs [Dazzlings , Daydream, Midnight, Gloriossa, and Pony-Up Sci-Twi] as the First Movie EqG Elements were stated by Twilight to be the strongest source of magic, even knowing well of Discord.
 
Right you got it, left out Equestria Girls my bad. I think I'd go with the former for Celestia & Luna, don't want to assume too much.
 
True. You definitely can make a point of Sombra and Discord being straight up 4-B by virtue of having feats of fighting the combined power of both Celestia and Luna.
 
Discord never defeated their combined power. Reality warping two people at once doesn't require double their power. He's only double their power via the fact that they are casually High 4-C and Discord is so far above them he had to fake being injured when blasted by their equal (King Sombra). Powerscaling in other words.

Sombra is definitely an absolute not. He got beaten so badly he needed 1,000 years to recover. That's not fighting their combined power, that's getting his ass kicked by it. Hard. The fact that he couldn't outright beat Celestia in the war further proves he is only as powerful as the individual princesses. Being double their power is wank and goes against what actually happened when he faced it.
 
Well he's powerful enough that Celestia can't just march in and banish him by herself the way she did when she had Luna, so it's not as if he's a pushover (this is the war timeline I'm talking about). His profile justification just needs to be changed.
 
Fair enough. That would be helpful in the future.

In the meantime while we wait for this to be evaluated I'll be making some sandboxes about how to maybe have the justifications for Celestia and Luna.
 
Might wanna give Celestia 4-B since she also defeated Discord with Luna.

Oh and, you may wanna update their speed to ftl in your sandbox based on this thread. Don't edit the actual profiles though. The episode ain't "officially" out yet. There's also a bunch of spaces between some of the stats that need fixing.

How do you even access the sandbox anyways?
 
Fair enough I'll do so right away.

Okay. I also sort of edited a few things... Like I gave Sunset the same power as she had during Daydream Shimmer in her Pony-Up Form [called Daydream Shimmer/Post-Equestria Games Pony-Up Form Key] as while she also powered down like Sci-Twi she has no explicit evidence of losing the powers and seems to have the same situation except hers is just having the powers and not the negative aspect like Sci-Twi had in the beginning of Everfree , and the fact later she was called the 2nd strongest by far in the EqG group (sans Twilight) when prior she was only comparable , and we even see her use the very same flame aura she has in Daydream Shimmer form in the music video "My past is not today"

Hmm... I'll wait until tomorrow, or until it is to be accepted first before I apply it to the sandbox.

Go to your Username, hit view profile, then in your web adress put a "/(INSERT whatever you want to Sandbox for)" and boom... Sandbox. I just used a blog and named it a sandbox.
 
You know I just realized how badly this breaks the scaling. Under these circumstances we have Lord Tirek's third form at High 4-C correct? Nothing wrong there. He was confident in taking on the princesses was he not? And yet upon absorbing her magic, Chrysalis is able to jump start him from his second form all the way to his post canterlot form. This would imply base Chrysalis is High 4-C (to a lesser extent than Celestia obviously), since at the very least half of his strength comes from her.

And it's not like anyone can say he was on the verge of his third form and thus Chrysalis merely tipped his power over the edge, because she repeatedly overpowered him with her magic, claimed to be stronger than his current state, and was too powerful to be drained by force. Chrysalis was getting mid-diffed by a clone of Twilight. This implies Twilight is High 4-C, but to a lesser extent. But Twilight is only comparable to a Low 4-C.

I'm not the only one seeing the problem here right? Thanks to Chrysalis, we can't have Celestia be this drastically stronger than Twilight or Chrysalis since it utterly ruins the powerscaling.
 
Most [except for the Chrysalis vs Tirek and Chrysalis vs Twilight part but even those have major flaws with the set in stone statements of both Chrysalis and Twilight] of those could be potentially seen as PIS as well as maybe Starswirl being drained via upscaling. Technically we are using the ones who performed the feat, not neccessarily Twilight herself. Also Starswirl repeatedly handled using the power to drive off the sun multiple times.

However we do have plenty of statements and showings hinting Twilight's difficulty with the sun so it sort of counter balances all the high-ends. At best I see "possibly Higher" for her and Chrysalis. Her scaling to the Alicorn Princesses makes no sense with her actual portrayal of power and the fact she needed the amp from the Power of Love as she was even surprised she won, heavily implying in her wildest dreams she doesn't think she can match Celestia.
 
Yes, and that power only amounts to 1/6th of 4-C. Which is what we're scaling every other Unicorn to in the first place. Not sure what the point here is.

The issue is that there's nothing indicating that Celestia and Luna are thousands of times as powerful as Twilight. More powerful? Absolutely, but never to this extreme. This section from the book is the one and only thing implying such a massive power difference. In combination with other feats that imply a much much smaller power difference between Celestia and Twilight, and the fact that this is the sole thing implying a thousands of times power difference, I'm half tempted to call this line an outlier. The book was mostly retconned anyways what with Starswirl knowing about the ToH.
 
It's the whole shows core concept. Said the book isn't canon because of one instance being inconsistent is ignoring everything else in the book that coincides with previous showings from the show and is honestly a way backpedaling and your claim is leaning on incredulous mindset rather than actual evidence.

The burden of proof is on you to prove the difference isn't that large without the showing being a PIS moment made to advance the plot and avoiding the Mane SIx's defeat. The Movie, Show, statements, and even WoG directly show that there was a massive difference between Alicorn Twilight & Celestia, and unless you can prove to me every instance of her being unable to move the sun by herself is PIS then this revision stands . Even Twilight herself said she was nowhere near strong enough to do that, which she explicitly proved by stressing herself out to the max to do so with an amp.

Unless we can agree Twilight got stronger over time via harnessing the power of the Elements, and Alicorns having been shown to grow in power as they mature, which in that case it can be argued. Otherwise this is a vehemently disagreeable set of claims coming from you that need explicit sourcing to back up as everything in the series is pointing otherwise.

You would literally need almost as many instances of them being comparable as there are of them being not comparable to make that work, otherwise them not being comparable would win by virtue of consistency.
 
The shows core concept? That would be friendship? Not sure how thats relevant here. You want to know something? Horse Play depicts how Celestia and Luna started raising the Sun and Moon. You know what didn't happen? Starswirl losing his magic and the sisters restoring the lost magic. That never happened. They never recieved power from the Sun and Moon either, they just discovered they could move it without the draining problem.

Wrong. On every single account. The burden of proof is on you prove that Celestia being 10,000 times stronger than Twilight isn't a massive outlier for her. Because to repeat myself: Twilight being unable to move the Sun by herself doesn't make her 10,000 times weaker than Celestia. It undoubtably makes her weaker than Celestia. But none of your showings require Twilight to be 10,000 times weaker than Celestia. They require her to be weaker than Celestia, but not to this extent. Once again: Being 10,000 times stronger than Starswirl is a once in the series implication that literally never shows up again.

And thanks to Horse Play, we actually have an idea just how much weaker they are: 1/6th of her power. And you know what? That's perfectly reasonable. That's a large enough power difference to prevent her from moving the Sun by herself. She doesn't need to be 10,000 times weaker than Celestia to fail at moving the Sun.
 
Furthermore, some of your statements and showings never happened. Twilight never said she was far weaker than Celestia. She said: "I don't have your magic" She didn't say she's unfathomably weaker than Celestia, just that she lacked enough magic to move the Sun on her own. Does this imply Twilight is weaker? Of course. Absolutely. To the extent you believe? Hell no. A 10,000 times difference is not implied. Period.

Statements? Name them. Then prove the context meant it to the same degree as implied by the book. Same thing for WoG.

I'll say it once more: We already have a power gap given by the show, and it fits the current powerscaling wonderfully, and it perfectly satisfies every statement or moment implying Twilight being weaker than Celestia at the same time. This includes the ones you brought up.
 
Bump. Alright then... I'm not going to convince you. It wouldn't matter much as while thinking about this I have an alternative:

Then that means we have to assume that due to this Starswirl supposedly is High 4C as he was able to survive moving the sun and moon without using up his powers while the Unicorns used them up, to the extent he only lost them very recently after asking Celestia anand Luna to do it, meaning he survived using it alongside the 10,000 Ponies until the very last few. So the calc can assume the Unicorns are that much weaker, not necessarily Starswirl as he only lost his powers when doing it alone after moving the sub and moon after doing it with the 10 000 number of times along with the others, which means he's immensely bove the Unicorns and would actively scale to the calc but weaker than Celestia and Luna. It would still make Twilight and Co. High 4C without messing up not using this, plus Starswirl had been fighting The Pony of Shadows for essentially years when they were stated as the biggest threats he had.
 
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