Marvel character speeds

[LordXcano]

I think the big issue with speed here is that, unlike DC, Marvel's "poster boys" are street levellers. As such, whenever a street-level hero goes up against, say, Silver Surfer, they tend to have a speed advantage but much less strength. They gotta look good after all.

But on the other end of this, we know that cosmic characters should be FTL from their feats. Yet listing Captain America as FTL for dodging Thanos' attacks is really stupid, when it's more likely he was jobbing because he was fighting, well, Captain America.

Because of this I propose that we get feats from standalone comics and non-scaling feats. Now, if a character has 0 feats for themselves and all they have is "fought Silver Surfer", then yes we would scale them because that's all we have. But scaling should always be the very far below second priority. If you give it too much credence you get things like the aforementioned "Hulk = Thor = Silver Surfer < Spider-Man".

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@LordXcano: So your saying that we should gets that are standalone and don't scale to others or...?

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with Gemmysaur.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I propose that we get feats from standalone comics and non-scaling feats. Now, if a character has 0 feats for themselves and all they have is "fought Silver Surfer", then yes we would scale them because that's all we have.

Problem is, there are others who are too difficult to find a good speed feat for e.g. Black Bolt afaik so I suggested the whole <handbook scaling>, Potentially <logical powerscaling>.

We could always have those with usable feats replace <logical powerscaling> with <calced feat>, as is the case with Thor and Surfer at the moment.

 

[LordXcano]

@LordXcano: So your saying that we should gets that are standalone and don't scale to others or...?

I'm saying scaling can be used but it'd be second-hand justification for a stat rather than a primary. A standalone feat doesn't have to scale to others, I'm just talking like "Character X ran Mach 5" rather than "Character X = Character Y who is Mach 5".

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I see.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, most Marvel characters do not have any impressive speed feats, so we would have to place them at "Unknown", without either handbook scaling or consistency scaling.

Of course, the problem is that every single character may end up scaled to Thor's FTL+ speed feat othervise...

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmmm.

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies. I have edited out the off-topic part of my last post.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

My apologies. I have edited out the off-topic part of my last post.

It alright, now back to the topic. I have a good hulk reaction speed feat of him punching sentry while he was flying at incredibly fast speeds. If I can get it calc'd could we scale that to the others? or only just him.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Okay. Well then again i can somewhat see how this would be a problem no matter what alternative we take of this.

Then again: Marvel's a pretty damn mess in terms of scaling. I've never seen this much inconsistency on anywhere else. It also pisses me off, in all honesty, to not have Odin be higher than Spidey's level.

(Sigh)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if you are talking about World War Hulk, then I do not believe that Sentry ever went FTL during his flight, so I doubt that it would be useful.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@cross agreed, I didn't want to say anything since I know about the marvel issues we have with scaling, but seeing thanos be listed at the same speed as Spiderman made me a little frustrated. I'm glad radical did this thread Ife been wanting to talk about this for a while now. Just didn't think it go this smoothly.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Well i'm just speaking out in all honesty here. Me and Antvasima have discussed this many times before and we both know how stupid Marvel is in scaling their characters compared to other franchises like KH, DB, Bleach, PMMM, JJBA, HnK, Toriko, etc.

But it makes sense because we're dealing with a long running series of comics made by various writers. So it makese sense why scaling this verse accurately, if possible, would be a huge issue for all of us.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Well, if you are ralking about World War Hulk, then I do not believe that Sentry ever went FTL during his flight, so I doubt that it would be useful.

Yes it is WWH, however I wouldn't take it off the table the fact he was charging at full speed in his somewhat unstable form. Theirs also the fact he's capable of baiting characters like Thor,gladiator and Hyperion in the past. And this was a sentry who wanted too severely hurt the hulk by any means necessary. We can least say he was going SOl

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we could go with Gemmysaur's suggestion of two scaling options for several profiles. The question is just which ones that we should scale from Thor and the Surfer? We basically need a list.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Marvel_Comics

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@ant I can help start the list

For people(non cosmic/sky father level beings scaling to Thor:

Hulk

Sentry

Gladiator

Hercules

Ares

Hyperion

Doctor doom

Ultron

Juggernaut

Black bolt

Thing?

Beta Ray bill

Red she hulk

She hulk?

A bomb

Super skull

Blue marvel

Namor

Terrax

Drax

Firelord

Vulcan

Jean grey

Mangog

Morg

Abomination

Cul boroson

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that Hulk, Sentry, Gladiator, Hercules, Ares, Hyperion, Beta Ray Bill, Blue Marvel, Terrax, Drax, and Firelord could technically scale from Thor (just keep in mind that officially most of them are barely superhuman in terms of speed), but am very uncertain about the rest.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Namor has been able to go toe to toe with the hulk and iirc winning at least one of their fight,

the thing has fought with hulk plenty of times and landed good strikes, including with Thor.

Red she hulk has gone toe to toe with hulk at world breaker, thor has lost to red hulk, and has gone toe to toe with both hulk and Thor.

She hulk and Abomb is up to you, they have fought these characters before but debatable if they scale

Abomination same reasons as the thing, Mandog has beaten Thor, lean grey is an abstract being as the Phoenix so her using a little bit of the Phoenix force should be close to these guys dr strange has been able to react to high level beings,

dr doom has been able to react to three celestials firing a beam at him, so he should scale to these guys.

Vulcan is on similar levels with people like Hyperion and gladiator. So far that's my explanation for them

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Quick question could wolverine somewhat scale? He has tagged and surpher Thor before, blitz grey hulk in berserker form, and I believe tag quicksilver in the past though the latter might be wrong. Or would he only be scaled to Spiderman

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I mentioned, this is the problem with using power-scaling via every single matchup for Marvel. Since every single character is generally scaled down to a similar level of speed and power to the opponents during matchups, at the end we end up with a universe full of FTL+ statistics for everybody, even characters with supposedly human bodies, like Doctor Doom, Doctor Strange, and Jean Grey.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Well, as I mentioned, this is the problem with using power-scaling via every single matchup for Marvel. Since every single character is generally scaled down to a similar level of speed and power to the opponents during matchups, at the end we end up with a universe full of FTL+ statistics for everybody.

Oh I understand your concern, I just thought maybe wolverine would be a special case, but other than that any street level characters or mid characters like Luke cage should only scale to Spiderman. And the list I posted should be the ones who scale to Thor sicne they are all very high level characters in marvel.

 

[Antvasima]

The point is that technically, going by the vast majority of their appearances, it is ridiculous to even place them all as high as Massively Hypersonic, much less FTL+.

We are likely using a few outliers to scale a vast number of characters that do not come anywhere close to the speed statistics that we assign to them.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

As for characters like Doctor doom or strange they honestly should scale, like I said Doctor doom was able to react with three celestials firing a beam at him with his shields, and Doctor strange has been able to go on par and react with characters like umar and dormamamu in the past

 

[Antvasima]

I am still very uncertain how to properly solve this problem.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I am still very uncertain how to properly solve this problem.

Hmmmm, well we could only scale the cosmic tiers like the ones you agreed on first, then make all the cosmic sky father level beings like Odin and Zeus etc scale to Thor for obvious reason then keep for now the others ratings op until we can properly evaluate who else can be at this level of speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Doom reacting to Celestials seems like the kind of nonsensical gibberish outliers that are Marvel's trademark, and Doctor Strange is still generally shown as inferior in speed to street level characters such as Wong.

Mind you, I still think that we are placing the Marvel character speeds ridiculously high, given that their general showings are subsonic at best, so I have highlighted this thread for more input.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@antvasima, I suppose that makes sense, so that is a no on Both doctors, that is fine how about the characters like Mandog,abomination, and anihilus?

 

[Gemmysaur]

Scaling to Thor's FTL+

Space dudes like BRB, Thanos, Champion of the Universe, Galactus, Super Skrull...

Myth dudes like Odin, Bor, Chaos King, Surtur, Those who lie on their behinds in the shadows, Cul, Loki and the Asgardians, Hercules, the other Skyfathers...

Earth dudes like Hyperion, Sentry, Ultron, Hulk (only when sufficiently fan-hitting turd level enraged, else, watered down to his MHS rating at mildly pissed), Blue Marvel, Abomination (probably since he's a threat to Hulk but is he really?)...

Scaling from Surfer's FTL (Why he doesn't simply scale to Thor eludes me since he should technically be faster by portrayal afaik)

Fellow heralds like Terrax, Firelord, Morg, Stardust...

Space dudes like Gladiator (sufficiently confident), Nova (guessing this only), Annihilus (probably after absorbing stuff like Hulk's strength and getting to par with Thanos)...

Myth dudes like empty Destroyer, Mangog (who's only threat is his strength and durability anyway)...

Earth dudes like Namor (he's a threat but I remember him being knocked silly by Thor on accident while raining), Black Bolt (guessing)...

Ares (though I don't remember him matching a herald level being in combat though he did nail Hermes' foot midrun; else, scale to Iron Man's sub-rel+ since he's the guy who most frequently get the sharp end of Ares' weapon or the guy who gives thoughts on him afaik; though he could also be FTL+ given his statement that he's faster but weaker than Herc) ...he's weird like that.


Anyways, tried again to make a list. The others not listed, I am unsure as I know extremely little of them, do not care about them or have not seen them at all.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that most of these could scale to Thor, yes, including the Surfer. It is probably safest to only scale the characters that have consistently been able to keep up with either of them.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I agree with what Gemmy put, tbh. I mean it MAY not be perfect and we're still likely to get complaints about this in any other way, but i like it better than to just get constant comments of "why Odin MHS when he has MFTL+ feats?" or whatever.

It's just that annoying, ********, and downright ridiculous to deal with. Like either this or just straight up put them back to Unknown....

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Marvel is probably the most inconsistent fictional series ever made. It makes other Comic Book Series like DC and Image, which are already inconsistent, seem logical by comparison.

Frankly, I really don't know how we can approach Marvel characters. We should at best look at individual feats from characters and see if they are consistent with one another.

Character Scaling in Marvel is simply ridiculous. You can end up with 1-B Captain America doing it (Not an exaggeration, it's actually possible)

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Matthew: Isn't that what we've been sort of doing still tho?

And yeah, that's pretty much what Antvasima has told me so many times. When it comes to Marvel's scaling, it's just plain ridiculous. Like no way can we ever get through with this damn verse and all of it's scaling problems.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. It is completely nonsensical gibberish in terms of anything remotely resembling coherent logic.

 

[Strmix]

NOP,they should be not scaled

 

[Gemmysaur]

NOP,they should be not scaled

Care to explain why? And who you are talking about that should not be scaled for that matter.

 

[Skyblade743]

1.Idk,because i dont know what FTL+ means.XD

2.Hulk can leap that far,but that dosnt mean he can run fast or jump between planets with extreme speed(if you want to correct me there,please do)

 

[MagiSinbad]

FTL mean "Faster than light"

 

[Promestein]

I am fine with scaling the other characters to the FTL+ feats, as long as it remains possibly.

 

[Skyblade743]

oh,ok.If you mean in pure running speed,Hulk and Sentry outrun/fly Spidey.In terms of reactions,Spidey's miles faster because of his spider sense.