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Except camus fought marth and alm. If alm was a magnitude above marth camys would have ohkoed marth as camys fought alm.
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Marth's stats NEED a revision.
- Thread starter Thesolidsnakex
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Well, Camus fighting Alm is a possibility (not exactly Canon, of course, but they're both capable of fighting the same enemies), but we do have something along the lines of being capable of fighting Camus on Alm's page, and we have Camus scaled to Marth
They're both capable of fighting Camus, and Camus is capable of fighting the same enemies alongside of them both
They're both capable of fighting Camus, and Camus is capable of fighting the same enemies alongside of them both
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Anyone whos able to properly wield Falchion (it's a Thor's hammer situation) and is as physically capable as Marth should be able to slay Medeus, assuming Marth defeating him wasn't an outlier. So yes, Marth, thanks to the help of a divine blade which is more effective against dragon-kin, did defeat Medeus.TriforcePower1 said:
That's not sound logic. If two characters have the physical capabilities to defeat many armed men, just because one has defeated more, doesn't mean they are stronger because it doesn't take into account opportunity, how they defeated them, etc.Dark649 said:
That being said, I agree with JSW on Marth and Elm being comparable. I do not agree with the trinity of 6-B characters all scaling from Duma creating a continent. If an immortal man spent his days building and piecing together a continent, it doesn't mean he's now automatically 6-B attack potency. Fact of the matter is, it's unclear as to how he did it. An actual feat is going to be needed instead of "we do it, like, all, the time".
At this point I won't even address that Marth has never been hit by Bolganone before. I've explained it many times and the response has only been "well they CAN be hit by the spell therefore they scale" ignoring the point brought up. Marth can also be struck by a pitchfork, or shot with an arrow, and die from both. Therefore him surviving Bolganone can be an outlier. It's not like either of us are wrong at this point, you just disagree with my reasoning and I disagree with yours.
I don't believe the two Falchions to be equal, I've explained in my last lengthy response why that assumption is flawed. One of the Falchions has recieved multiple blessings, and they were created for two different purposes.
And you keep making vague remarks about closing this thread because you deem it to be dead after you respond. You clearly are a fan of the Fire Emblem series, and this thread is meant to bring down their tiers and overall verse power. You are partial and biased, and therefore you should not be the one to pull the trigger on this thread, get another discussion moderator to do it for you. Even if you don't agree, there's no harm in getting someone else to decide when it's done.
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Insightful, thank you for furthering the discussion. As expected from an administrator.Dark649 said:
I think I'll put this out there; I'm not mad at JSW, I just don't understand a lot of his reasoning. I haven't had many of my claims analyzed and debunked, It's just dismissed with a surface level statement leading to more misunderstanding. I only expect that he'd go as hard with his reasoning as I've been with his.
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I'm a little late, but I agree more with JustSomeWeirdo and Dark649 here. All playable characters and bosses that aren't god tiers should scale to Bolganone and/or meteor, but we decided to go by Bolganone because it's safer. Also, Falchion's tier only applying to Dragons is pretty nitpicky; it's the same thing saying the Blade of Olympus only works on gods. There is in depth lore to why Falchion is so powerful against Dragons or puts Marth and Alm on the level Divine Dragons and Dark Dragons. It's a Holy Weapon, infused with Naga's blessing, enhancing strength and protection to Naga's level. And Newton's Third Law still exists, also, Marth can still take hits from Medeus, which is another reason durability scales. Dodging Bolting is also a legit Massively Hypersonic feat.
Also, I agree that SolidSnakex needs to mind his tone.
Also, I agree that SolidSnakex needs to mind his tone.
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I disagree, we've never seen Marth get hit with Bolganone and/or meteor. But you're still free to hold your opinion that all characters should scale from it.
Falchion's tier should also only apply to dragons, because it's got the bonus effect giving it bonus damage to dragons. It's nitpicky, but It's an important distinction. If Falchion is 6-B against all characters, then are we going to give it bonus damage to Dragons or not? Clearly it doesn't matter at that point, does it? How would you now know how much more damage it does? I wouldn't bring this point up if it wasn't a property of the sword throughout every single apperance.
What do you think about the whole 6-B tier Falchion scaling? The logic is, Falchion scales to Grima and Medeus, who both scale back to Falchion. The reason it's placed at 6-B is because the other Falchion has defeated Duma, who's 6-B because he created a continent. How is that relevant to his attack power/durability?
Also that's kind of targeted, no? The first reply to me was that everything was wrong, and that later, the thread needs to be closed. I'll just keep doing me.
Falchion's tier should also only apply to dragons, because it's got the bonus effect giving it bonus damage to dragons. It's nitpicky, but It's an important distinction. If Falchion is 6-B against all characters, then are we going to give it bonus damage to Dragons or not? Clearly it doesn't matter at that point, does it? How would you now know how much more damage it does? I wouldn't bring this point up if it wasn't a property of the sword throughout every single apperance.
What do you think about the whole 6-B tier Falchion scaling? The logic is, Falchion scales to Grima and Medeus, who both scale back to Falchion. The reason it's placed at 6-B is because the other Falchion has defeated Duma, who's 6-B because he created a continent. How is that relevant to his attack power/durability?
Also that's kind of targeted, no? The first reply to me was that everything was wrong, and that later, the thread needs to be closed. I'll just keep doing me.
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Grima had a country feat by himself or am i wrong?.
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A feat that breaks the infinite feedback loop between the 6-B characters, no. He just scales from Alm and Falchion as well as him being equal power to Naga. Naga scales from Falchion. So we're stuck with the same problem.TheJ-ManRequiem said:
If you mean one that isn't listed, then feel free to share.
Also, DarkDragonMedeus is editing my POSTS? NANI?!
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We literally used to have them as 6-B because of Grima's size
Also, Grima does not scale from Falchion, he scales from Naga, who scales from Falchion, stop making up this "infinite loop" that doesn't even exist
Also, Grima does not scale from Falchion, he scales from Naga, who scales from Falchion, stop making up this "infinite loop" that doesn't even exist
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Please stop using long quotes also, it only makes the thread more redundant and lag heavy.
Marth can get hit from a Bolganone or Meteor in game and still survive it. Additionally, Marth still canonically defeated Camus and that's also despite Marth having a smaller army than Camus; Camus has tanked Bolganone and Meteor as does many other characters in the series. There's a limit to what can and can't be considered game mechanics, especially if a pretty decent feat is consistent.
Duma and Mila created a Continent with their own might. Creation feats are generally equal, if not superior to destruction feats because they still require harnessing same amount of energy; 380 Teratons of energy to be specific. And Creating something generally requires much more precision control than destruction, which further supports them being High 6-B. Naga is clearly superior to Duma as Naga defeated and banished him, and Medeus was treated as a greater threat than Duma was. Falchion does scale to Medeus and Duma respectively, and not limited to Dragons. Alm's Falchion is also bonus damage to undead enemies. Not giving bonus damage to fodder soldiers is just game mechanics. We don't assume Link is Wall level naturally but Large Star level when fighting Ganon just because he doesn't oneshot fodder enemies in game. And the in depth lore still puts Marth at Large Country level in which he should be comparable if not superior to Alm. FE3 Marth is actually 100% invulnerable to all Non-Earth Dragon attacks due to Falchion's protection, but was removed in the FE12 due to being deemed too OP in game, but story does put Marth's tier and durability that high. Grima is also stronger yet even than Naga and Medeus.
And I agree with closing the thread since it seems too chaotic.
Marth can get hit from a Bolganone or Meteor in game and still survive it. Additionally, Marth still canonically defeated Camus and that's also despite Marth having a smaller army than Camus; Camus has tanked Bolganone and Meteor as does many other characters in the series. There's a limit to what can and can't be considered game mechanics, especially if a pretty decent feat is consistent.
Duma and Mila created a Continent with their own might. Creation feats are generally equal, if not superior to destruction feats because they still require harnessing same amount of energy; 380 Teratons of energy to be specific. And Creating something generally requires much more precision control than destruction, which further supports them being High 6-B. Naga is clearly superior to Duma as Naga defeated and banished him, and Medeus was treated as a greater threat than Duma was. Falchion does scale to Medeus and Duma respectively, and not limited to Dragons. Alm's Falchion is also bonus damage to undead enemies. Not giving bonus damage to fodder soldiers is just game mechanics. We don't assume Link is Wall level naturally but Large Star level when fighting Ganon just because he doesn't oneshot fodder enemies in game. And the in depth lore still puts Marth at Large Country level in which he should be comparable if not superior to Alm. FE3 Marth is actually 100% invulnerable to all Non-Earth Dragon attacks due to Falchion's protection, but was removed in the FE12 due to being deemed too OP in game, but story does put Marth's tier and durability that high. Grima is also stronger yet even than Naga and Medeus.
And I agree with closing the thread since it seems too chaotic.
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In Echoes he litterally is just the size of Duma. He's only country size in Awakening, so I have no idea how you're going to decide which one is equal to Naga and which one isn't, but that's not a mess I want to be involved with. Regardless, it still isn't listed in the character page, so as of now it's still an infinite feedback loop.JustSomeWeirdo said:
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Probably the one that's literally stated to be equal to Naga by Naga herself
Have you read the page and checked the keys?
Have you read the page and checked the keys?
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>A feat that breaks the infinite feedback loop between the 6-B characters, no. He just scales from Alm and Falchion as well as him being equal power to Naga. Naga scales from Falchion. So we're stuck with the same problem.
Ya sure?
He does have a storm feat and razing a continent and his ke would have decent high cakculatiom results.
Ya sure?
He does have a storm feat and razing a continent and his ke would have decent high cakculatiom results.
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Grima was just a baby in Echoes, so the size argument is kinda weak. And in Awakening, the lore has Grima's skeleton being almost as big as the Continent, so Country level was a rough estimate, but we're kind of derailing the thread at this point.
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Well may calculate that now myself.
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I refuse to admit that they've ever been hit by Bolganone and that they'd only survive it because of in-game mechanics, but it doesn't matter because so far I have an unpopular opinion. Also, that creation feat still is incorrect, creating it with their "might" is too vague of a statement, did they will it to shape via TK or did they put it together claw by claw? Over how long of a time frame? I guess I'm now Building Level attack potency because I put together a building over 100 years.
"Also, Grima does not scale from Falchion, he scales from Naga, who scales from Falchion, stop making up this "infinite loop" that doesn't even exist."
Legit cannot tell if you're trolling or not. Fact of the matter is, none of them have feats of their own that is listed and they currently just scale off of each other. Listing that Grima is 6-B because of his size should solve this, though his actual size does vary from game to game, so knowing which size is equal to Naga will be messy. If you still can't understand where the loop is coming from, don't bother trying to understand.
Oh, and Bolganone varies from game to game so shouldn't a calculation be needed for each specific Bolganone? Not every FE character goes up against that Bolganone, so why do they all scale from it? Sometimes it's literally just a flame coming from the ground. This and how they are all Superhuman lifters with no feats to back it up.
You can close the thread if you think it's too messy.
"Also, Grima does not scale from Falchion, he scales from Naga, who scales from Falchion, stop making up this "infinite loop" that doesn't even exist."
Legit cannot tell if you're trolling or not. Fact of the matter is, none of them have feats of their own that is listed and they currently just scale off of each other. Listing that Grima is 6-B because of his size should solve this, though his actual size does vary from game to game, so knowing which size is equal to Naga will be messy. If you still can't understand where the loop is coming from, don't bother trying to understand.
Oh, and Bolganone varies from game to game so shouldn't a calculation be needed for each specific Bolganone? Not every FE character goes up against that Bolganone, so why do they all scale from it? Sometimes it's literally just a flame coming from the ground. This and how they are all Superhuman lifters with no feats to back it up.
You can close the thread if you think it's too messy.
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You are actually saying that everything in game, except for Bolting, because they decided to just rush towards every single user of Bolting, was dodged
I'm going to assume you think the same about Meteor
This idea also assumes that the party could tell which Mages had Bolting or Meteor, and was just so overwhelmingly fast as to not get hit by anything as they made their way over to the enemy mages before they could attack
You know, instead of assuming that they get hit sometimes, they dodge sometimes, and that they don't outright blitz everyone in existence
Occam's Razor, the idea that what makes the least assumptions is correct, try using it, the results may surprise you
Also, there's no reason to assume Mila and Duma created Valentia piece by piece when they have demonstrated range over Zofia and Rigel respectively just to manipulate the weather, and we already had 6-B god tiers from Grima's size alone, so it's in no way an outlier
You need to prove why we cannot use the feat, not just say that it doesn't count
I'm going to assume you think the same about Meteor
This idea also assumes that the party could tell which Mages had Bolting or Meteor, and was just so overwhelmingly fast as to not get hit by anything as they made their way over to the enemy mages before they could attack
You know, instead of assuming that they get hit sometimes, they dodge sometimes, and that they don't outright blitz everyone in existence
Occam's Razor, the idea that what makes the least assumptions is correct, try using it, the results may surprise you
Also, there's no reason to assume Mila and Duma created Valentia piece by piece when they have demonstrated range over Zofia and Rigel respectively just to manipulate the weather, and we already had 6-B god tiers from Grima's size alone, so it's in no way an outlier
You need to prove why we cannot use the feat, not just say that it doesn't count
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Bolganone and meteor are medium level attacks even fodder characters can perform and withstand, therefore, everyone should scale. Especially if they're at high level, which any playable character can be, so any playable character scales for sure.
Duma and Mila created the Continent by forming matter out of nothing; similar to how a God forms a planet by harnessing it's gravitational binding energy. Divine Dragons are basically gods in the Fire Emblem Universe and Dark Dragons are Devils.
FE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 all take place in the same universe, and use the same lore, so Bolganone and Meteor is the same in all those games. FE4 may have the most impressive animation, but it scales to all; any smaller portrayal is limitations due to game mechanics. The GBA Fire Emblem games don't have them, so they're only Building level+ scaling from Bolting. The Tellius games are actually getting revised and most likely upgraded scaling from Rexbolt but that's another topic for another thread.
I gotta go to RL work now, so I'll let JSW and Dark take care of things here till then.
Duma and Mila created the Continent by forming matter out of nothing; similar to how a God forms a planet by harnessing it's gravitational binding energy. Divine Dragons are basically gods in the Fire Emblem Universe and Dark Dragons are Devils.
FE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 all take place in the same universe, and use the same lore, so Bolganone and Meteor is the same in all those games. FE4 may have the most impressive animation, but it scales to all; any smaller portrayal is limitations due to game mechanics. The GBA Fire Emblem games don't have them, so they're only Building level+ scaling from Bolting. The Tellius games are actually getting revised and most likely upgraded scaling from Rexbolt but that's another topic for another thread.
I gotta go to RL work now, so I'll let JSW and Dark take care of things here till then.
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I'll say this: building something when there is no definable timeframe for the build is a bit dubious. At best it is a "likely".
I agree with JSW in everything else.
I'd also appreciate it if you'd cut the condescending lines, Thesolidsnakex.
I agree with JSW in everything else.
I'd also appreciate it if you'd cut the condescending lines, Thesolidsnakex.
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I didn't say it HAD to be dodged. They could have killed the mages before they had a chance to fight. Or maybe the mages simply targeted other troops/characters. I don't know how it went down, to be honest. In fact, I think many troops in their army were hit by these spells, just not the specific characters that are featured in the game, because there is no canon evidence suggesting that they were. It could have happened, we just don't know, and to assume so is wrong.
It's a razor for a reason, you need to know how to use it without getting cut. The dangers of oversimplification is a very real thing. I think you could learn a thing or two about Occam's Razor.
There's no way of knowing how they created it. Yes, they can manipulate weather, but how does that exactly result in them creating a continent? With no canon explanation, you cannot subsitute it with your own and disregard the many others that also make sense.
I'm still keking from your infinite loop comment.
It's a razor for a reason, you need to know how to use it without getting cut. The dangers of oversimplification is a very real thing. I think you could learn a thing or two about Occam's Razor.
There's no way of knowing how they created it. Yes, they can manipulate weather, but how does that exactly result in them creating a continent? With no canon explanation, you cannot subsitute it with your own and disregard the many others that also make sense.
I'm still keking from your infinite loop comment.
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Ever heard of powerscaling? We assume that they're comparable and they therefore scale to each otherThesolidsnakex said:
How does that exactly result in creating a continent
Because they were literally stated to have done so, and I'm only using weather to prove that they have the range to do so as well
I'm still keking from your infinite loop comment.
Still no idea as to where your infinite loop comes from, the pages legitimately do not support your theory whatsoever, you're claiming that the High 6-B characters suffer from circular scaling, such as Naga to Falchion to Grima to Naga, when that just isn't true
Wokistan
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Bolting doesn't need to be dodged in a cutscene for it to be accepted, if it makes sense and you can dodge it in gameplay its fine. That's where the MHS and relativistic comes from in dark souls anyway. There's no speed feats in cutscenes there, but since the spells are clearly defined as lightning and rays of light, and you can dodge it in gameplay, its used. Gameplay mechanics, like what you're suggesting about the falchion, are disregarded when they're inconsistent or outlandish, not just for not being a cutscene.
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Claims of gameplay mechanics and circular scaling that doesn't even exist, as well as actual gameplay mechanicsPaChi2 said:
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@AssaltWaffle, they didn't build the continent, they magically created the continent out of nothing. And as for the timeframe, it really depends. They created the land mass in less than a day, and then they also created life. Unsure how long it took entire nations to be built, but it lasted for hundreds and possibly a thousand years; and then Echoes takes place.
Now back to why they scale to the magic tomes. First of all, the fact that the mages are able to perform magic spells proves that they have 8-A to Low 7-C Attack Potency. Two mages are easily capable of trading blows with their Bolganones and Meteors, so it scales to their durability as well. The weapon wielders, including Marth and Camus can kill those same mages, so they have Attack Potency that scales to their durability as well, and Marth and Camus can not only trade blows, but Newton's Third Law always scales physical striking strength to durability, (All punches would be suicide attacks if that wasn't true). And also, everyone can dodge Cloud to ground Lightning, and there exists a cutscene about it, so there's that.
Valentiun Falchion easily scales to Duma, because it's a Holy Weapon designed to kill Duma, created by Naga, and also grants the wielder protection from Naga. Medeus is canonically comparable if not superior to Duma, as Medeus was more of a threat to Naga than Duma was and was the legit King of the Earth Dragons due to his might. And since Marth not only uses a Falchion from the same power source, but defeated Medeus, Marth's Falchion also scales.
As for lifting strength, doesn't it require some form of superhuman lifting strength to outwrestle/repel a superhuman striking strength? Using a sword to block a Multi-City Block Class striking strength feat just by holding your sword in place does seem like an unquantifiably superhuman lifting strength feat. Still Unknown, but I don't see any reason for anyone to be any less than Class 1. Superhuman jumps are generally Superhuman lifting feats also.
Bottomline, no one's being downgraded. Should I go ahead and close the thread now?
Now back to why they scale to the magic tomes. First of all, the fact that the mages are able to perform magic spells proves that they have 8-A to Low 7-C Attack Potency. Two mages are easily capable of trading blows with their Bolganones and Meteors, so it scales to their durability as well. The weapon wielders, including Marth and Camus can kill those same mages, so they have Attack Potency that scales to their durability as well, and Marth and Camus can not only trade blows, but Newton's Third Law always scales physical striking strength to durability, (All punches would be suicide attacks if that wasn't true). And also, everyone can dodge Cloud to ground Lightning, and there exists a cutscene about it, so there's that.
Valentiun Falchion easily scales to Duma, because it's a Holy Weapon designed to kill Duma, created by Naga, and also grants the wielder protection from Naga. Medeus is canonically comparable if not superior to Duma, as Medeus was more of a threat to Naga than Duma was and was the legit King of the Earth Dragons due to his might. And since Marth not only uses a Falchion from the same power source, but defeated Medeus, Marth's Falchion also scales.
As for lifting strength, doesn't it require some form of superhuman lifting strength to outwrestle/repel a superhuman striking strength? Using a sword to block a Multi-City Block Class striking strength feat just by holding your sword in place does seem like an unquantifiably superhuman lifting strength feat. Still Unknown, but I don't see any reason for anyone to be any less than Class 1. Superhuman jumps are generally Superhuman lifting feats also.
Bottomline, no one's being downgraded. Should I go ahead and close the thread now?
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