Marcos vs Jinbei

[Mickey1940]

I also want to mention that Jinbe's only key with Intermediate Buso Haki is his Onigashima key

Jinbe's Haki there is High 6C, which is restricted, and first key doesn't even have Black Hardening, and no one before the timeskip has explicitly demonstrated usage in Initial Buso to increase their defense. The only examples I can see of Initial Buso is basically just to hit Logias and nothing else.

TLDR Jinbe having Buso Haki in this key either barely helps cuz no Black Hardening and Initial Buso doesn't increase defense all that much, or doesn't help at all cuz Initial doesn't even increase defense in the first place

 

[Kachon123]

@Kachon123 d*ckriding haki again claiming that internal damage deals zero damage to haki users when Chinjao hit Garp in the hand there's no organs in your hand to dura neg, not to mention haki doesn't protect you from just getting punched in the f*cking stomach which is what Fa Jin is

Or you could look at the scans sent and see that Hasshoken's durability negation works even if you attack or block it with your fist

 

[Kachon123]

I also want to mention that Jinbe's only key with Intermediate Buso Haki is his Onigashima key

Jinbe's Haki there is High 6C, which is restricted, and first key doesn't even have Black Hardening, and no one before the timeskip has explicitly demonstrated usage in Initial Buso to increase their defense. The only examples I can see of Initial Buso is basically just to hit Logias and nothing else.

TLDR Jinbe having Buso Haki in this key either barely helps cuz no Black Hardening and Initial Buso doesn't increase defense all that much, or doesn't help at all cuz Initial doesn't even increase defense in the first place

You're literally just spreading misinformation

 

[Mickey1940]

Or you could look at the scans sent and see that Hasshoken's durability negation works even if you attack or block it with your fist

Chinjao punches Luffy and Luffy is hurt

Anyone who gets punched gets hurt

Not to mention, Hasshoken in-verse can be countered with a sufficient opposing force. Sai's Hasshoken dura-negging vibration were countered by Ideo just punching really really hard, despite Ideo's complete lack of Haki

so Garp punching Chinjao really really hard doesn't automatically make Haki immune to vibrations

 

[Mickey1940]

You're literally just spreading misinformation

this is Pre-Timeskip/Fishman Island Saga Jinbe, no?

not Whole Cake

not to mention, even if we did give him Black Hardening, it doesn't change his AP value for that key, meaning nothing would change. I'm assuming that his current stats reflect how he is even WITH Haki, as there's no additional notes saying otherwise

so yeah no regardless this changes nothing

 

[Kachon123]

Chinjao punches Luffy and Luffy is hurt

Luffy punches Chinjao using Hasshoken. Luffy blocks using his arm. Luffy is damaged either way because of the durability negating shockwaves.

Not to mention, Hasshoken in-verse can be countered with a sufficient opposing force. Sai's Hasshoken dura-negging vibration were countered by Ideo just punching really really hard, despite Ideo's complete lack of Haki

They were never stopped by Ideo. They clashed and he was affected by them.

 

[Kachon123]

this is Pre-Timeskip/Fishman Island Saga Jinbe, no?

not Whole Cake

not to mention, even if we did give him Black Hardening, it doesn't change his AP value for that key, meaning nothing would change. I'm assuming that his current stats reflect how he is even WITH Haki, as there's no additional notes saying otherwise

so yeah no regardless this changes nothing

Jinbe only has 2 keys. Onigashima and the stuff before that. I never claimed that Jinbe's Haki changes is AP value so the rest of your post is irrelevant.

 

[Mickey1940]

Luffy punches Chinjao using Hasshoken. Luffy blocks using his arm. Luffy is damaged either way because of the durability negating shockwaves.

Chinjao punches Luffy and is stronger than Base Luffy and also has Haki

Luffy gets damaged

They were never stopped by Ideo. They clashed and he was affected by them.

They clashed fists multiple times and Ideo wasn't getting his organs exploded, and could match him blow for blow

 

[Mickey1940]

Jinbe only has 2 keys. Onigashima and the stuff before that.

ok fair

I never claimed that Jinbe's Haki changes is AP value so the rest of your post is irrelevant.

You mentioned that Marcos has no way around Jinbe's armament defense in your first post, which is incorrect cuz Marcos can just punch him


why are we even arguing again? we both believe Jinbe wins

 

[Kachon123]

Chinjao punches Luffy and is stronger than Base Luffy and also has Haki

Luffy gets damaged

We literally see Base Luffy have extended exchanges with Chinjao when he wasn't using Hasshoken without being on the backfoot. I'm unsure why you're trying to headcanon the events when we literally see its the shockwave that affected Luffy.

They clashed fists multiple times and Ideo wasn't getting his organs exploded, and could match him blow for blow

Idea got hit directly on his face several times and his organs didn't explode so this doesn't prove that equal physical strength can stop the "unblockable" blow of Hasshoken.

You mentioned that Marcos has no way around Jinbe's armament defense in your first post, which is incorrect cuz Marcos can just punch him

Jinbe already has high stats and Armament Haki's defense can stonewall people previously relative to him, so that's not incorrect. "Getting punched in the f*cking stomach" doesn't stop Haki because Jinbe can just... coat his stomach.

 

[Mickey1940]

We literally see Base Luffy have extended exchanges with Chinjao when he wasn't using Hasshoken without being on the backfoot. I'm unsure why you're trying to headcanon the events when we literally see its the shockwave that affected Luffy.

we don't see jack shit cuz it's on a damn tv, Chinjao has no reason not to use Hasshoken at all times

Idea got hit directly on his face several times and his organs didn't explode so this doesn't prove that equal physical strength can stop the "unblockable" blow of Hasshoken.

In the link I sent, Ideo punched Sai's fist and the shockwaves got dispersed outwards instead of into Ideo

not to mention, Ideo doesn't have Haki

Jinbe already has high stats and Armament Haki's defense can stonewall people previously relative to him, so that's not incorrect. "Getting punched in the f*cking stomach" doesn't stop Haki because Jinbe can just... coat his stomach.

Except that's not true

Jinbe stonewalling Who's Who is in his Onigashima key with High 6C haki

Jinbe needs Haki to reach his profile's values in the first place, so no he's not stonewalling anything

 

[Kachon123]

we don't see jack shit cuz it's on a damn tv, Chinjao has no reason not to use Hasshoken at all times

That's my point. If Luffy wasn't reacting that way when Chinjao isn't using Hasshoken but does when its activated, and in the panel we specifically see the Hasshoken shockwaves enveloping Luffy's body, it's clear that he wasn't just being physically overpowered.

In the link I sent, Ideo punched Sai's fist and the shockwaves got dispersed outwards instead of into Ideo

Your link wasn't working but I know the instance you're referring to:



The shockwave wasn't dispersed. That's just how Hasshoken is drawn. You could go through the entire arc and every single time its drawn like that.

Not really sure what Ideo having Haki or not does for this conversation since nobody asserted or implied that he did.

Except that's not true

Jinbe stonewalling Who's Who is in his Onigashima key with High 6C haki

Jinbe needs Haki to reach his profile's values in the first place, so no he's not stonewalling anything

Jinbe is his value without Haki. Who told you that he's only that level with it??

Also Haki stonewalling is a trait of Haki itself, not just a feat for Jinbe. This is a thing for every single character that has it.

 

[Mickey1940]

That's my point. If Luffy wasn't reacting that way when Chinjao isn't using Hasshoken but does when its activated, and in the panel we specifically see the Hasshoken shockwaves enveloping Luffy's body, it's clear that he wasn't just being physically overpowered.

You're missing my point

Chinjao has no reason not to use Hasshoken at all times since it's just a fighting style

A fighting style that Chinjao always uses

Your link wasn't working but I know the instance you're referring to:

my b, couldn't find it on yt so I used ******

The shockwave wasn't dispersed. That's just how Hasshoken is drawn. You could go through the entire arc and every single time its drawn like that.

Not really sure what Idea having Haki or not does for this conversation since nobody asserted or implied that he did.

The shockwave was dispersed outwards in the anime. It's kinda hard to draw that on a piece of paper since you can't display multiple camera angles

and Ideo not having Haki is relevant since he was able to cancel out the shockwaves through sheer opposing force alone, which puts Haki's "immunity to vibration" into contention

Jinbe is his value without Haki. Who told you that he's only that level with it??

In his BoT key, he's listed as Island level, and he doesn't have anything that says "higher with Haki" on anything until the Onigashima raid.
He also doesn't have any statistics amplification on his profile caused by Haki specifically (only for being underwater), not even for his durability, so I assumed that the values stated there are for his full power, which includes Haki in it

Also Haki stonewalling is a trait of Haki itself, not just a feat for Jinbe. This is a thing for every single character that has it.

Haki users can be hurt if they're being hit by someone as strong as they are, regardless of whether their opponent has Haki or not

if Jinbe is at a certain value with Haki, and someone without Haki can punch at that exact value, a Haki user will still get hurt, even though Blackening obviously does help

Marcos isn't that much weaker than Jinbe, so to say that Jinbe can just stonewall him is an overstatement. Blackening certainly does help, but he's not invincible

 

[Kachon123]

You're missing my point

Chinjao has no reason not to use Hasshoken at all times since it's just a fighting style

A fighting style that Chinjao always uses

We can see Sai here mixing strikes here. Chinjao was not using Hasshoken. Not all of his attacks use it.

The shockwave was dispersed outwards in the anime. It's kinda hard to draw that on a piece of paper since you can't display multiple camera angles

and Ideo not having Haki is relevant since he was able to cancel out the shockwaves through sheer opposing force alone, which puts Haki's "immunity to vibration" into contention

We can that's just not the case in the manga, and I'd argue that the anime doesn't show that either.

We have literally see Haki block out durability negating shockwaves earlier in the series. This isn't something I'm just making up.

In his BoT key, he's listed as Island level, and he doesn't have anything that says "higher with Haki" on anything until the Onigashima raid.
He also doesn't have any statistics amplification on his profile caused by Haki specifically (only for being underwater), not even for his durability, so I assumed that the values stated there are for his full power, which includes Haki in it

Well no, Jinbe is very casually outputting these levels without Haki or Fish-Ma Karate/Ju Jitsu. Those just amp him further.

Haki users can be hurt if they're being hit by someone as strong as they are, regardless of whether their opponent has Haki or not

if Jinbe is at a certain value with Haki, and someone without Haki can punch at that exact value, a Haki user will still get hurt, even though Blackening obviously does help

Marcos isn't that much weaker than Jinbe, so to say that Jinbe can just stonewall him is an overstatement. Blackening certainly does help, but he's not invincible

Jinbe already has higher durability than Marcos has AP. Haki make bring someone who can punch hard enough to harm another person incapable of damaging them.

 

[SlendVeny]

Chinjao punches Luffy and Luffy is hurt

Anyone who gets punched gets hurt

Not Luffy. He's made of rubber. (How did that happen?)