• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Maou Gakuin Discussion Thread

Ddzn said:
No Abyss magic would just fall under nonduality/transduality (if it gets accepted for the verse), Zinnia even proclaimed himself that a logic manipulation feat was impossible so I don’t see any aspects of logic manipulation we can give it.

His eyes didn’t resist chaotic eyes, he was merely just emitting infinite darkness which was getting blown away by chaos. Think of a flame thrower constantly burning and wind repelling its direction, this is what was happening he didn’t resist it at all, his magical power was just extremely deep that the bottom of their abyss’ would be the deciding factor of the outcome. It’s merely a case of who has more MP in the tank not resistence.

Idk about Graham’s true form, it may just be a case of nonduality/transduality aswell, but he should already have it via <Veneziara>.
Click to expand...
It’s not that logic manipulationlevel feats are impossible, but rather that what Noah did was what was deemed “impossible”. This is especially clear when considering that Zinnia specifically used the term 理外 when referring to Noah’s actions (Syrica). All things still exist within a framework of logic/principle, and this is fundamentally different from Gilieriam, who reached 滅びの深淵 and stated that “subete no kotowari ga rifujin ni shōmetsu ***** iku no da.” That statement implies that all logic and principle are nullified before Gilieriam upon reaching the “Abyss” By contrast, what Noah did being “outside” all logic and principle from the very beginning(framework) , rather than negating them after the fact. And when we take into account that Zinnia is the only one who has reached the “Abyss”, and that it is said “Tsūjō no mahō to wa somosomo genri jitai ga chigau,” this may indicate that “Abyss magic” of the type used by Gilieriam or Agido operates on a fundamental principle that differs from conventional logic. As a result, it likewise stands above all logic and principle within the Silver Sea. However, what Noah did completely escapes the framework of logic itself. I think it would take far too long to fully explain this using formal logical theory, but in simple terms, I see it as analogous to the difference between Irregular Logic and Logic Transcendence
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
It’s not that logic manipulationlevel feats are impossible, but rather that what Noah did was what was deemed “impossible”. This is especially clear when considering that Zinnia specifically used the term 理外 when referring to Noah’s actions (Syrica). All things still exist within a framework of logic/principle, and this is fundamentally different from Gilieriam, who reached 滅びの深淵 and stated that “subete no kotowari ga rifujin ni shōmetsu ***** iku no da.” That statement implies that all logic and principle are nullified before Gilieriam upon reaching the “Abyss” By contrast, what Noah did being “outside” all logic and principle from the very beginning(framework) , rather than negating them after the fact. And when we take into account that Zinnia is the only one who has reached the “Abyss”, and that it is said “Tsūjō no mahō to wa somosomo genri jitai ga chigau,” this may indicate that “Abyss magic” of the type used by Gilieriam or Agido operates on a fundamental principle that differs from conventional logic. As a result, it likewise stands above all logic and principle within the Silver Sea. However, what Noah did completely escapes the framework of logic itself. I think it would take far too long to fully explain this using formal logical theory, but in simple terms, I see it as analogous to the difference between Irregular Logic and Logic Transcendence
Click to expand...
Well it doesn’t redefine the logic of the silver sea which is my point, existing outside of its logic is just a form of nondualism, Noah should have logic manipulation in base via Davuel since shadow orbs broke through the reason of the silver sea; shown with Misa using it to manipulate the reason of the silver sea allowing rumours to extend across the entire sea instead of limited to a bubble world. This inherently aligns with an aspect Logic Manipulation, don’t forget Logic Manipulation only covers the ability to directly alter the logic exterior of oneself, which Zinnia hasn’t shown via feats, I personally think wanking an argument based on this is a fools errand but I’m always open to mgk supremacy 🙌. <Gilieram Naviem>’s statement on the other hand about destroying all reason via the 7th step is interesting but idk
 
I checked the layers page and they explained characters with magic power can get higher layers the more stronger they are. Is there an argument to counter that it's simply just a weakness as the ability can be countered by someone with stronger AP/stat? I know the system is very similar to DB which had people removing any possible layers since they consider overpowering an ability is a weakness, not layer.
 
Thermor said:
I checked the layers page and they explained characters with magic power can get higher layers the more stronger they are. Is there an argument to counter that it's simply just a weakness as the ability can be countered by someone with stronger AP/stat? I know the system is very similar to DB which had people removing any possible layers since they consider overpowering an ability is a weakness, not layer.
Click to expand...
1. Different verses, different contexts. MG has a mountain of context for its layers, it shouldn't be compared to DB.
2. It's not strictly about AP, but rather the quality of their magic power, as well as their affinity associated with their spells/resistances.
3. Nothing points out to it being a weakness, so no reason to assume it's one. We dont do that with DnD or any Xianxia cultivation system either, for example, despite them working similarly.
 
Last edited:
Ddzn said:
Well it doesn’t redefine the logic of the silver sea which is my point, existing outside of its logic is just a form of nondualism, Noah should have logic manipulation in base via Davuel since shadow orbs broke through the reason of the silver sea; shown with Misa using it to manipulate the reason of the silver sea allowing rumours to extend across the entire sea instead of limited to a bubble world. This inherently aligns with an aspect Logic Manipulation, don’t forget Logic Manipulation only covers the ability to directly alter the logic exterior of oneself, which Zinnia hasn’t shown via feats, I personally think wanking an argument based on this is a fools errand but I’m always open to mgk supremacy 🙌. <Gilieram Naviem>’s statement on the other hand about destroying all reason via the 7th step is interesting but idk
Click to expand...
First of all, Paraconsistent logic (or nondualism) is not what Noah is doing here. It is stated quite explicitly that he “DESTROYS” certain logic, and that he succeeds in doing so. Everyone knows that magic can only manifest when it possesses properties such as Law (法律), Formula (術式), Magical Effect (魔法効果), and a Caster (術者). What Noah does is not the creation of a paraconsistent state where contradictory logics coexist without “exploding.” He simply destroys certain logic altogether. I think it is clear that this qualifies as Logic Manipulation of a higher order than conventional Logic Manipulation. It is certainly not the same as Davuel. If we follow Marcus’s explanation, the Order of Fusion is a binding constraint that cannot even be compared to the Abysses encountered by Luna, because it is tethered to the Logic/Principle of the Silver Sea. From this, I infer that there may be a kind of hierarchical structure of logic involved (though it is also possible that there is none this is merely another hypothesis of mine, and I do not consider it especially important at the moment) When we take into account that everything within the Silver Sea is bound by logic, Marcus surely understands this, and yet he still insists to Noah that going beyond the “Wall of Death” (死の壁) is something impossible despite the fact that Noah succeeds in doing exactly that. What I am trying to convey is that this is not a case of existing outside logic. Rather, Noah destroys logic itself, so that the“constraints” which define something as “impossible” no longer exist, thereby allowing Celis to use Syrica. All of this constitutes a modification of deductive reasoning, which, according to my interpretation, is clearly Logic Manipulation.

Of course, Zinnia has never demonstrated an explicit feat, but procedurally statement & structure, he may be capable of it. And when we consider that Agido operates differently from normal principles/logic, I still agree that he does not possess any Logic Manipulation feats. However, this is unrelated to his statement that what Noah did was impossible because even if you possess Logic Manipulation, you still would not be able to do what Noah did. I think it makes sense, especially since there are many other elements that point in this direction. Still, I will respect your opinion.
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
First of all, Paraconsistent logic (or nondualism) is not what Noah is doing here. It is stated quite explicitly that he “DESTROYS” certain logic, and that he succeeds in doing so. Everyone knows that magic can only manifest when it possesses properties such as Law (法律), Formula (術式), Magical Effect (魔法効果), and a Caster (術者). What Noah does is not the creation of a paraconsistent state where contradictory logics coexist without “exploding.” He simply destroys certain logic altogether. I think it is clear that this qualifies as Logic Manipulation of a higher order than conventional Logic Manipulation. It is certainly not the same as Davuel. If we follow Marcus’s explanation, the Order of Fusion is a binding constraint that cannot even be compared to the Abysses encountered by Luna, because it is tethered to the Logic/Principle of the Silver Sea. From this, I infer that there may be a kind of hierarchical structure of logic involved (though it is also possible that there is none this is merely another hypothesis of mine, and I do not consider it especially important at the moment) When we take into account that everything within the Silver Sea is bound by logic, Marcus surely understands this, and yet he still insists to Noah that going beyond the “Wall of Death” (死の壁) is something impossible despite the fact that Noah succeeds in doing exactly that. What I am trying to convey is that this is not a case of existing outside logic. Rather, Noah destroys logic itself, so that the“constraints” which define something as “impossible” no longer exist, thereby allowing Celis to use Syrica. All of this constitutes a modification of deductive reasoning, which, according to my interpretation, is clearly Logic Manipulation.

Of course, Zinnia has never demonstrated an explicit feat, but procedurally statement & structure, he may be capable of it. And when we consider that Agido operates differently from normal principles/logic, I still agree that he does not possess any Logic Manipulation feats. However, this is unrelated to his statement that what Noah did was impossible because even if you possess Logic Manipulation, you still would not be able to do what Noah did. I think it makes sense, especially since there are many other elements that point in this direction. Still, I will respect your opinion.
Click to expand...
Honestly, even if it were genuinely Paraconsistent logic, it wouldn’t really matter. The ability to violate logic in that manner still requires direct interference with logic external to the user, which means it would still qualify as Logic Manipulation regardless. Since TD/ND has now been fully renamed to Paraconsistent Physiology, there shouldn’t be any issue at all.
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
First of all, Paraconsistent logic (or nondualism) is not what Noah is doing here. It is stated quite explicitly that he “DESTROYS” certain logic, and that he succeeds in doing so. Everyone knows that magic can only manifest when it possesses properties such as Law (法律), Formula (術式), Magical Effect (魔法効果), and a Caster (術者). What Noah does is not the creation of a paraconsistent state where contradictory logics coexist without “exploding.” He simply destroys certain logic altogether. I think it is clear that this qualifies as Logic Manipulation of a higher order than conventional Logic Manipulation. It is certainly not the same as Davuel. If we follow Marcus’s explanation, the Order of Fusion is a binding constraint that cannot even be compared to the Abysses encountered by Luna, because it is tethered to the Logic/Principle of the Silver Sea. From this, I infer that there may be a kind of hierarchical structure of logic involved (though it is also possible that there is none this is merely another hypothesis of mine, and I do not consider it especially important at the moment) When we take into account that everything within the Silver Sea is bound by logic, Marcus surely understands this, and yet he still insists to Noah that going beyond the “Wall of Death” (死の壁) is something impossible despite the fact that Noah succeeds in doing exactly that. What I am trying to convey is that this is not a case of existing outside logic. Rather, Noah destroys logic itself, so that the“constraints” which define something as “impossible” no longer exist, thereby allowing Celis to use Syrica. All of this constitutes a modification of deductive reasoning, which, according to my interpretation, is clearly Logic Manipulation.

Of course, Zinnia has never demonstrated an explicit feat, but procedurally statement & structure, he may be capable of it. And when we consider that Agido operates differently from normal principles/logic, I still agree that he does not possess any Logic Manipulation feats. However, this is unrelated to his statement that what Noah did was impossible because even if you possess Logic Manipulation, you still would not be able to do what Noah did. I think it makes sense, especially since there are many other elements that point in this direction. Still, I will respect your opinion.
Click to expand...

Hirotoswnn1x said:
First of all, Paraconsistent logic (or nondualism) is not what Noah is doing here. It is stated quite explicitly that he “DESTROYS” certain logic, and that he succeeds in doing so. Everyone knows that magic can only manifest when it possesses properties such as Law (法律), Formula (術式), Magical Effect (魔法効果), and a Caster (術者). What Noah does is not the creation of a paraconsistent state where contradictory logics coexist without “exploding.” He simply destroys certain logic altogether. I think it is clear that this qualifies as Logic Manipulation of a higher order than conventional Logic Manipulation. It is certainly not the same as Davuel. If we follow Marcus’s explanation, the Order of Fusion is a binding constraint that cannot even be compared to the Abysses encountered by Luna, because it is tethered to the Logic/Principle of the Silver Sea. From this, I infer that there may be a kind of hierarchical structure of logic involved (though it is also possible that there is none this is merely another hypothesis of mine, and I do not consider it especially important at the moment) When we take into account that everything within the Silver Sea is bound by logic, Marcus surely understands this, and yet he still insists to Noah that going beyond the “Wall of Death” (死の壁) is something impossible despite the fact that Noah succeeds in doing exactly that. What I am trying to convey is that this is not a case of existing outside logic. Rather, Noah destroys logic itself, so that the“constraints” which define something as “impossible” no longer exist, thereby allowing Celis to use Syrica. All of this constitutes a modification of deductive reasoning, which, according to my interpretation, is clearly Logic Manipulation.

Of course, Zinnia has never demonstrated an explicit feat, but procedurally statement & structure, he may be capable of it. And when we consider that Agido operates differently from normal principles/logic, I still agree that he does not possess any Logic Manipulation feats. However, this is unrelated to his statement that what Noah did was impossible because even if you possess Logic Manipulation, you still would not be able to do what Noah did. I think it makes sense, especially since there are many other elements that point in this direction. Still, I will respect your opinion.
Click to expand...

Well you’re not tracking at all, I’m not advocating nondualism for Noah, I was clearly highlighting that he would gain logic manipulation via <Davuel> which is pivotal, as it’s clearly a shadow that breaks the reason of the Silver Sea, pertinent to the fact that Misa used Noah’s Shadow Orb to destroy the law that rumours are limited to the Militia world. The kanji used was actually " 理 " which means (Reason, Logic, principle) so it’s more than evident. It seems to me that you think there is a distinction between <Davuel> and the Shadow Orbs despite manifesting as the same power?

I did mention that it’s a fools errand to wank <Agido> to logic manipulation and my whole basis was that it only qualifies for Paraconsistent physiology since operating differently from normal principles/logic would still inherently fall under some form of nonduality and the fact he has no feats makes it redundant. What Noah did is Logic Manip, even though he possesses the same qualities as <Agido> the context of Noah’s hax shows forms of logic manip. Existing outside of the silver sea’s order doesn’t mean that you can manipulate the logic behind it. <Gilieram Naviem> on the other hand despite the statement of destroying all reason within the sea, in nature it’s not something any different than statistics amplification lol, being able to destroy the cosmology ≠ logic manipulation
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
Honestly, even if it were genuinely Paraconsistent logic, it wouldn’t really matter. The ability to violate logic in that manner still requires direct interference with logic external to the user, which means it would still qualify as Logic Manipulation regardless. Since TD/ND has now been fully renamed to Paraconsistent Physiology, there shouldn’t be any issue at all.
Click to expand...
I still think it’s a lil vague but if you want to make a blog with proposals for it I would be more than open minded to look, ofc we can’t accept MTL on this wiki yet so it wouldn’t be applied but for the sake of discussions I don’t see why not
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Then there is useless bum like you
Click to expand...
Hd256oO.png
 
Ddzn said:
Well you’re not tracking at all, I’m not advocating nondualism for Noah, I was clearly highlighting that he would gain logic manipulation via <Davuel> which is pivotal, as it’s clearly a shadow that breaks the reason of the Silver Sea, pertinent to the fact that Misa used Noah’s Shadow Orb to destroy the law that rumours are limited to the Militia world. The kanji used was actually " 理 " which means (Reason, Logic, principle) so it’s more than evident. It seems to me that you think there is a distinction between <Davuel> and the Shadow Orbs despite manifesting as the same power?

I did mention that it’s a fools errand to wank <Agido> to logic manipulation and my whole basis was that it only qualifies for Paraconsistent physiology since operating differently from normal principles/logic would still inherently fall under some form of nonduality and the fact he has no feats makes it redundant. What Noah did is Logic Manip, even though he possesses the same qualities as <Agido> the context of Noah’s hax shows forms of logic manip. Existing outside of the silver sea’s order doesn’t mean that you can manipulate the logic behind it. <Gilieram Naviem> on the other hand despite the statement of destroying all reason within the sea, in nature it’s not something any different than statistics amplification lol, being able to destroy the cosmology ≠ logic manipulation
Click to expand...
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasn't talking about Davuel. We already know it involves logic manipulation. You should know, based on the explanation of the Order of Fusion, that it follows the principles of the Silver Sea. What I’m actually saying is
Ddzn said:
Zinnia even proclaimed himself that a logic manipulation feat was impossible so I don’t see any aspects of logic manipulation we can give it.
Click to expand...
As you know, Zinnia didn't state that Logic Manipulation is impossible. Rather, he stated that what Noah did was impossible because it meant 'beyonding' the Wall of Death. This is evidenced by his use of the term '理外' (Rigai - Beyond Logic/Reason), the same term used for Graham in Volume 8. It is similar to how Venuzdonoa destroyed the 'Law of Nihility' (虚無の理) and Graham's true form at a 'deeper' level. This is why it’s called a 'Nihility devoid of Logic' because Syrica possesses no Logic, Law, or Principle to support its output. This is exactly what the Eyes of Chaos do. As I mentioned regarding the 'Wall of Death' (死の壁), it is said: 'Kono umi no chitsujo wa kanzen naru wa o mitomete orimasen. Nagaki ni watari kunrin suru kyōsha tote, itsuka wa subete ga mu to nari, awa no yō ni kiesaru unmei de gozaimasu.' In other words, the Silver Sea does not accept eternal principles,process or anything 'perfect/Absolute' no matter how exalted, everything is destined to dissolve like a bubble. Noah defied this, which is why Zinnia claimed it was 'impossible.' I am certain that even with Logic Manipulation feats like Davuel's, it cannot be done. Even Chaos stated it was impossible, yet the Eyes of Chaos can achieve it for a specific reason.
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasn't talking about Davuel. We already know it involves logic manipulation. You should know, based on the explanation of the Order of Fusion, that it follows the principles of the Silver Sea. What I’m actually saying is

As you know, Zinnia didn't state that Logic Manipulation is impossible. Rather, he stated that what Noah did was impossible because it meant 'beyonding' the Wall of Death. This is evidenced by his use of the term '理外' (Rigai - Beyond Logic/Reason), the same term used for Graham in Volume 8. It is similar to how Venuzdonoa destroyed the 'Law of Nihility' (虚無の理) and Graham's true form at a 'deeper' level. This is why it’s called a 'Nihility devoid of Logic' because Syrica possesses no Logic, Law, or Principle to support its output. This is exactly what the Eyes of Chaos do. As I mentioned regarding the 'Wall of Death' (死の壁), it is said: 'Kono umi no chitsujo wa kanzen naru wa o mitomete orimasen. Nagaki ni watari kunrin suru kyōsha tote, itsuka wa subete ga mu to nari, awa no yō ni kiesaru unmei de gozaimasu.' In other words, the Silver Sea does not accept eternal principles,process or anything 'perfect/Absolute' no matter how exalted, everything is destined to dissolve like a bubble. Noah defied this, which is why Zinnia claimed it was 'impossible.' I am certain that even with Logic Manipulation feats like Davuel's, it cannot be done. Even Chaos stated it was impossible, yet the Eyes of Chaos can achieve it for a specific reason.
Click to expand...
My point is that Zinnia’s proclamation regarding the impossibility of Noah's actions has nothing to do with Zinnia's own lack of Logic manipulation feats. I accept and agree with you that there are no supporting feats to prove Zinnia possesses Logic manipulation that is all. Although there are certain structures that I suspect might hold those properties, I’ll leave that to the wankers instead. I’ll put my trust in the wankers.
 
Good news for those who haven't bought Light Novel Vol. 16-17, the Webnovel has just been updated with 65 new chapters covering the content of those volumes. Now, wankers can finally compare the Raw text with the MTL
 
Seems like SHU has started yet another power trip fantasy novel. Definitely gonna follow this.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

HigashikataJobin
The Most Haxed Low 1-C Characters Fight Each Other
Replies
5
Views
2K
HigashikataJobin
HigashikataJobin
Dereck03
  • Locked
Average MG Thread
2
Replies
60
Views
9K
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
BoastJr
  • Locked
AURA FARMING LEAGUE ! MATCH 8 : ANOS VS DOCTOR WHO (WEEK 2)
Replies
7
Views
1K
Just a Random Butler
Just a Random Butler
Rikimarox2
A Novel Concept Discussion Thread
Replies
2
Views
587
Rikimarox2
Rikimarox2
Dereck03
  • Locked
Graham's revision
Replies
6
Views
2K
Reiner04
Reiner04
Back
Top