Major star wars revision

[chosen]

So first of all
Dooku should be upgraded to solar System since he is consistently in yoda and palpatine levels


Vader should also be upgraded to solar System same for anakin since darth vader is consistently stated to be above anakin (not just for ep 6) and stated above yoda and windu
Anakin himself is stated above windu


Obiwan gets sound and fear Manipulation

This is only for legends btw
Imma revise Canon later

 

[DaReaperMan]

Dooku was scared shitless of Yoda and was completely overwhelmed by him in seconds.

Obi-Wan scales to Anakin so he'd be 4-B as well, which makes Grievous 4-B, and so on and so forth. Anakin being 4-B breaks scaling, especially getting near people like Palpatine.

Ability additions are fine.

 

[LordTracer]

Obi-Wan scales to Anakin so he'd be 4-B as well

This is actually not true at all. In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Vader is explicitly stated to have been weakened during his duel with Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

Obi-Wan was also overpowered by Dooku during Revenge of the Sith, but Anakin is stated on multiple occasions to be superior to Dooku. Even at his weakest, Vader was stated to be comparable or superior to Dooku.

Obi-Wan doesn’t scale to a full power Anakin/Vader.

 

[LordTracer]

Anyways, there is currently a huge EU revision being planned that will acknowledge some of the things brought up in this thread.

 

[chosen]

Dooku was scared shitless of Yoda and was completely overwhelmed by him in seconds.

Obi-Wan scales to Anakin so he'd be 4-B as well, which makes Grievous 4-B, and so on and so forth. Anakin being 4-B breaks scaling, especially getting near people like Palpatine.

Ability additions are fine.

When?

Also in the novels is stated anakin was nerfed vs Obiwan
I can give scan

 

[chosen]

Anyways, there is currently a huge EU revision being planned that will acknowledge some of the things brought up in this thread.

Intereseting

 

[DaReaperMan]

This is actually not true at all. In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Vader is explicitly stated to have been weakened during his duel with Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

Obi-Wan was also overpowered by Dooku during Revenge of the Sith, but Anakin is stated on multiple occasions to be superior to Dooku. Even at his weakest, Vader was stated to be comparable or superior to Dooku.

Obi-Wan doesn’t scale to a full power Anakin/Vader.

He wasn't weakened by billions if not trillions of times

When?

I believe it was the comic of the fight stating Dooku's thoughts

 

[chosen]

He wasn't weakened by billions if not trillions of times

I believe it was the comic of the fight stating Dooku's thoughts

Dooku could just be scared since yoda was his master Tbh
He was shown 2 times to fight even with yoda being also stated it was even and Shown he can fight windu who is nearly on par with yoda
And about obi wan part would just mean Obiwan would downscale but very barely
Palpatine would still slap Obiwan since dooku bodied obi wan as well
Btw ik is non Canon but sw what if from the time eu was still alive that shown anakin to be palpatine tier

 

[LordTracer]

He wasn't weakened by billions if not trillions of times

This really isn’t a good argument. 99.9% of the time, fiction does not treat AP differences as being as large as they are. It also really doesn’t change that Obi-Wan is significantly inferior to Anakin.

 

[chosen]

Bump

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Don't bump after only a few minutes, do it after like 12 hours or so. Also I'm neutral on this but leaning on agreeing depending on the arguments

 

[chosen]

Don't bump after only a few minutes, do it after like 12 hours or so. Also I'm neutral on this but leaning on agreeing depending on the arguments

Aight

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Don't bump after only a few minutes, do it after like 12 hours or so. Also I'm neutral on this but leaning on agreeing depending on the arguments

Same.

 

[chosen]

Bump

 

[DarlingAurora]

I agree with all.

 

[aeneax]

Your case for Dooku is good. Dooku’s battle with Yoda during AOTC consists of him entering the battle tired, matching Yoda in the Force contest portion of the fight, then being at a disadvantage to Yoda in a duel but exhausting him in the process.

Your case for Anakin scaling to titans is good. He's stated to be above Yoda multiple times.

Original Trilogy Vader is weaker than TPM fighters. That has been stated multiple times by G-canon sources, and Vader has zero feats to back up the notion that he grew past Anakin. DT Vader concedes inferiority to Karness Muur, and in Resurrection, ANH Vader is humiliated by a clone of TPM Maul.

 

[chosen]

Your case for Dooku is good. Dooku’s battle with Yoda during AOTC consists of him entering the battle tired, matching Yoda in the Force contest portion of the fight, then being at a disadvantage to Yoda in a duel but exhausting him in the process.

Your case for Anakin scaling to titans is good. He's stated to be above Yoda multiple times.

Original Trilogy Vader is weaker than TPM fighters. That has been stated multiple times by G-canon sources, and Vader has zero feats to back up the notion that he grew past Anakin. DT Vader concedes inferiority to Karness Muur, and in Resurrection, ANH Vader is humiliated by a clone of TPM Maul.

Hm

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Also in reference to Dooku, he straight-up fights Obi Wan and Mace Windu at the same time in Republic Heroes, the story which was overseen by Dave Filoni and the writers of the clone wars and was at the time a canonical sequel to Season 1 of The Clone Wars.

Though there is a major Legends Revision happening so i think this should wait.

 

[chosen]

Also in reference to Dooku, he straight-up fights Obi Wan and Mace Windu at the same time in Republic Heroes, the story which was overseen by Dave Filoni and the writers of the clone wars and was at the time a canonical sequel to Season 1 of The Clone Wars.

Though there is a major Legends Revision happening so i think this should wait.

Can Obiwan abilities adition at least be added now or that also wait?

 

[Hellbeast]

Original Trilogy Vader is weaker than TPM fighters. That has been stated multiple times by G-canon sources, and Vader has zero feats to back up the notion that he grew past Anakin. DT Vader concedes inferiority to Karness Muur, and in Resurrection, ANH Vader is humiliated by a clone of TPM Maul.

Vader is stated to have surpassed his previous peaks as of Return of the Jedi which should imply superiority to Anakin and I vaguely recall Palpatine being of the belief that Vader could have surpassed Anakin with enough prodding

As for Dooku I'm torn; he has the above but then TCW (The second highest form of canon) shows him getting pretty easily overpowered by Sidious.

I'd definitely suggest waiting for the revisions to be finished tho

 

[LordTracer]

Vader is stated to have surpassed his previous peaks as of Return of the Jedi which should imply superiority to Anakin and I vaguely recall Palpatine being of the belief that Vader could have surpassed Anakin with enough prodding

This. Vader is actually stated to have surpassed his previous peak during A New Hope, with Obi-Wan even stating that he could recognize Anakin’s power within Vader’s armor.

 

[Hellbeast]

This. Vader is actually stated to have surpassed his previous peak during A New Hope, with Obi-Wan even stating that he could recognize Anakin’s power within Vader’s armor.

Yep, the ROTJ statement could mean he was growing throughout the trilogy

 

[chosen]

Hm

As for Dooku I'm torn; he has the above but then TCW (The second highest form of canon) shows him getting pretty easily overpowered by Sidious.

Hm looked seems Like he only overpowered dooku trough force chook once
Dooku scaling to him looks more consistent
Since dooku fought on par with yoda in ep 2 in a eu comic fought on par with mace who is blatantkt almost equal to palpatine and yoda in a eu comic and fought mace in a game Canon to eu and even an official source supporting dooku scaling to yoda
Late reply ik Tbh

 

[aeneax]

Vader is stated to have surpassed his previous peaks as of Return of the Jedi which should imply superiority to Anakin and I vaguely recall Palpatine being of the belief that Vader could have surpassed Anakin with enough prodding

As for Dooku I'm torn; he has the above but then TCW (The second highest form of canon) shows him getting pretty easily overpowered by Sidious.

I'd definitely suggest waiting for the revisions to be finished tho

That is true. Vader does indeed have a lot of sources about his prime being in the OT and even sources on Vader being comparable to Sidious, but the main issue is that those sources conflict with what Lucas has stated and with Vader's own feats. In a tug war between C-canon and G-canon, the winner is obvious.

Sidious Force-choking Dooku shouldn't be treated as an anti-feat for Dooku. The Count doesn't feel he's at peril. He thinks he’s irreplaceable, even as late as ROTS during the Invisible Hand when fighting Anakin.

 

[Hellbeast]

Hm

Hm looked seems Like he only overpowered dooku trough force chook once
Dooku scaling to him looks more consistent

That still has the very real precedent that Palps can overthrow Dooku and Palpatine seems to imply Anakin isn't stronger then him as of ROTS (which Dooku being relative to Sidious would claim)

Since dooku fought on par with yoda in ep 2 in a eu comic fought on par with mace who is blatantkt almost equal to palpatine and yoda in a eu comic and fought mace in a game Canon to eu and even an official source supporting dooku scaling to yoda

Mace is getting revised; he fights Palpatine because of Vaapad and its implied Palpatine threw the battle

 

[Hellbeast]

That is true. Vader does indeed have a lot of sources about his prime being in the OT and even sources on Vader being comparable to Sidious, but the main issue is that those sources conflict with what Lucas has stated and with Vader's own feats. In a tug war between C-canon and G-canon, the winner is obvious.

The problem reveals itself

• Death of the Author applies if paratext is inconsistent with text
  • Which the 80 percent statement would be because of all the statements Vader has grown in power since Mustafar (I recall 7)
  • The WOG wouldn't come under G Canon necessarily because G Canon refers to the context of the actual films; not behind the scenes statements

Sidious Force-choking Dooku shouldn't be treated as an anti-feat for Dooku. The Count doesn't feel he's at peril. He thinks he’s irreplaceable, even as late as ROTS during the Invisible Hand when fighting Anakin.

He views himself as a valuable part of the plan; that doesn't mean he isn't aware of Palpatine's power and there are way too many statements implying Sidious' superiority for Dooku to be relative.

 

[chosen]

That still has the very real precedent that Palps can overthrow Dooku and Palpatine seems to imply Anakin isn't stronger then him as of ROTS (which Dooku being relative to Sidious would claim)

Could just be anakin is slightly below him
We can't really quantify the gaps between dooku anakin and palpatine so
Also source call mace close to windu
Could be he needs it to beat palpatine

 

[Hellbeast]

Could just be anakin is slightly below him

Except by assuming Dooku is already on par with Palpatine Anakin should be > Sidious by scaling

• As a Knight he did much better against Dooku then Obi-Wan Kenobi
• He grew even stronger and fought Dooku in the TCW movie
• He then fights Dooku during TCW Season 4
  • Filoni even states Tyranus was going all out and Skywalker was not protected by Palpatine
• He then "doubles" in power and outright defeats Dooku
  • Dooku genuinely feared for his life here and went all out in this fight
  • Palpatine claims to Grievous his "new apprentice" is more powerful then Dooku
• I can't recall if this is new Canon exclusive (@ByAsura could help) but a Star Wars databank claims Anakin grew even stronger after his turn as Darth Vader

So we're looking at a character who's been relative to Dooku for years, regularly growing in power up until outright destroying him in combat, later being stated as being more powerful before supposedly growing even more after his fall to the Dark Side. If Dooku was even slightly sub Palpatine that'd still imply Anakin should already be powerful enough to succeed Sidious

We can't really quantify the gaps between dooku anakin and palpatine so

We kinda can tbh
Dooku should be "Likely far higher", referencing that stuff while also noting he isn't normally treated as being that strong

Also source call mace close to windu

?

Could be he needs it to beat palpatine

Vaapad works by using dark side energies to strengthen the user; the fact he's going into the fight with a ton of rage at having been deceived for years and fighting a war for the very enemy he's been hunting AND the fact he's up against the strongest Sith of all time is going to make this no normal fight.

And again; Palpatine threw the fight

 

[chosen]

?

Meant source also regonize mace close to yoda

 

[chosen]

Vaapad works by using dark side energies to strengthen the user; the fact he's going into the fight with a ton of rage at having been deceived for years and fighting a war for the very enemy he's been hunting AND the fact he's up against the strongest Sith of all time is going to make this no normal fight.

And again; Palpatine threw the fight

Imma see about this later then

 

[LordTracer]

I can't recall if this is new Canon exclusive (@ByAsura could help) but a Star Wars databank claims Anakin grew even stronger after his turn as Darth Vader

Nah it’s not canon exclusive, the EU also states that Anakin began growing more powerful as soon as he turned to the dark side.

 

[Hellbeast]

Meant source also regonize mace close to yoda

Ah I see; my apologies
Still Mace being close to Yoda might just qualify for a likely far higher, especially since didn't he struggle with Grievous?

Which would mean Obi-Wan would be close to someone who's close to Yoda who's roughly relative to Palpatine

Imma see about this later then

I'll see if I can find a source

This. Vader is actually stated to have surpassed his previous peak during A New Hope, with Obi-Wan even stating that he could recognize Anakin’s power within Vader’s armor.

Actually thank you for reminding me; with the proposed Dooku scaling this would mean that Jedi Vader is > Empire Vader who's > ANH Vader who's >> someone who's already much stronger then someone who scales to Yoda; implying Vader should have surpassed Palpatine by now. I do know Sidious grew between trilogies but still, it's got massive implications that don't add up

 

[DaReaperMan]

especially since didn't he struggle with Grievous?

Pretty sure he disengaged once Grievous started using a loose form of vaapod against mace, which is why Mace avoided lightsaber combat with Grievous in Clone Wars and instead just force crushed his chest

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Ah I see; my apologies
Still Mace being close to Yoda might just qualify for a likely far higher, especially since didn't he struggle with Grievous?

Which would mean Obi-Wan would be close to someone who's close to Yoda who's roughly relative to Palpatine

I'll see if I can find a source

Actually thank you for reminding me; with the proposed Dooku scaling this would mean that Jedi Vader is > Empire Vader who's > ANH Vader who's >> someone who's already much stronger then someone who scales to Yoda; implying Vader should have surpassed Palpatine by now. I do know Sidious grew between trilogies but still, it's got massive implications that don't add up

I think a few books here and there actually state that OT Vader is straight up superior to Yoda a few times. Can't remember which ones though.

 

[chosen]

Ah I see; my apologies
Still Mace being close to Yoda might just qualify for a likely far higher, especially since didn't he struggle with Grievous

Would be weird since mace can fight dooku who easily beat Obiwan who is grievous rival
Though i Think was only the animated show where iirc gets damage in the Last Fight which is right before ep 3

 

[chosen]

Yeah grievous is weakened against Obiwan using the animated show

 

[LordTracer]

I think a few books here and there actually state that OT Vader is straight up superior to Yoda a few times. Can't remember which ones though.

They don’t explicitly state Vader > Yoda, but there is a multitude of sources that state Vader is the second most powerful person in the galaxy during the original trilogy, which would put him above Yoda.

And Vader >>> RotJ Luke, who is stated to be the most powerful Jedi of all time, but that’s stuff for the verse-wife revisions

 

[DaReaperMan]

Would be weird since mace can fight dooku who easily beat Obiwan who is grievous rival
Though i Think was only the animated show where iirc gets damage in the Last Fight which is right before ep 3

Obi-Wan can kick Grievous's ass because he is THE master of form 3 of lightsaber combat(Seresu, I forget the name) which perfectly countered Grievous's fighting style, along with Grievous Bing weakened due to mace force crushing his ass

 

[LordTracer]

Obi-Wan can kick Grievous's ass because he is THE master of form 3 of lightsaber combat(Seresu, I forget the name) which perfectly countered Grievous's fighting style, along with Grievous Bing weakened due to mace force crushing his ass

Also Obi-Wan was “amped” against Grievous, as he had given himself over to the Force and was letting it guide his movements.

 

[chosen]

Obi-Wan can kick Grievous's ass because he is THE master of form 3 of lightsaber combat(Seresu, I forget the name) which perfectly countered Grievous's fighting style, along with Grievous Bing weakened due to mace force crushing his ass

O yeah that too
And just found in the animated windu weakens grievous before ep 3