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I believe soHave I added all the votes or am I missing some
it's a ability she has and that she says time and time again that she is going to use, she just never has the opportunity due to the circunstances of the fight so i don't think it's fair to discard one of her main abilities just because of thatSo all I'm really seeing for evidence that she's going to swap bodies to avoid Domain or being touched is her simply claiming she could. Not showing that she does so in-character early on. I don't feel there's any reason to continue the debate on body-swapping when it's clear she doesn't use it as often.
his speed amp will be useful depending on how far away they are from each otherAnd Mahito can create a speed blitz amp via his shapeshifting. Something I mentioned much earlier on.
being in a small hallway also give her dolls a advantage since mahito will have way less room to dodge them and his transfigurated humans are going to be turned into dolls with one touchIn a small school hallway where he can easily blow them away with Transfigured humans,
they're inside a school and her dolls have surface scaling i don't think flight will be usefulshapeshifting (to small creatures with flight),
that's a good point, that's one of the motives i don't think it would be impossible for him to touch her(just difficult)and blitzing (Via shapeshifting again).
i'm not saying it would be impossible, i even say that it's possible for him to touch her, i just think that it would be very diifficultyThey're only gonna be tens of meters apart at most. Mahito is clearing that extremely quick. The fact it was argued that Mahito would fail to land even a single touch on her because "Dolls" is absurd to me. Will it be easy? No. Will it be impossible? Definitely not.
chapter 58: she sends one of he perfect dolls to turn people into dolls while she is far away with tolkaThe first thing that happens when we see her is she gets attacked directly by Denji. Then goes to hide in a building and Quanxi follows her and beats her up there for a while. Then when night time comes? She immediately goes after Denji and doesn't attempt hiding even once. The whole next chapter is her just beating up on Denji by herself and with dolls. Not a single instance of hiding (Or trying to swap bodies to save herself from being ensnared).
So she's not going to be hiding the entire fight while her dolls pester Mahito. She'll be out in the open, and resort to hiding later based on what I've seen.
i think it would be better if the op told us exactly how far away they are from each otherWell the one who made the match-up was under the impression they started tens of meters away. I imagine they start that far away at most.
denji has never defeated quanxi(And Denji beating Quanxi isn't even impressive. I covered this in another thread).
I’ll clear it up. And no it won’t be tens of meters. Its a school not just a hallway. Both characters have fought starting off 100m away before in combat scenarios.i think it would be better if the op told us exactly how far away they are from each other
in that case i believe santa claus has the advantageI’ll clear it up. And no it won’t be tens of meters. Its a school not just a hallway. Both characters have fought starting off 100m away before in combat scenarios.
As long as we agree it's not a starting move, we're on the same boat. I don't think it should be entirely discarded. I just don't think it's likely to happen before Mahito eitherit's a ability she has and that she says time and time again that she is going to use, she just never has the opportunity due to the circunstances of the fight so i don't think it's fair to discard one of her main abilities just because of that
sure, it isn't her starting move but it also isn't some kind of attack that she refuses to use
Yes, it's enough to blitz the dolls. It let him perception blitz Nanami whom he was physically inferior to at the time:his speed amp will be useful depending on how far away they are from each other
if they're just some meters apart? it's going to be very useful but if they're more than 50-60 meters apart from each other it's not going to so useful(his profile doesn't even say how fast he becomes with this speed amp but i assume it's enough to speed blitz her dolls, right?)
He was able to evade numerous homing lasers chasing him around for an extended period of time with his shapeshifting factor. I doubt mindless puppets are going to be much trouble in terms of impeding his navigation. He can shrink and escape their view, create distractions/imposters to take their attention off of him, blitz past them, etc.being in a small hallway also give her dolls a advantage since mahito will have way less room to dodge them and his transfigurated humans are going to be turned into dolls with one touch
When he transforms into an incredibly small bird and all the dolls lose sight of him, it will be pretty easy to navigate through them.they're inside a school and her dolls have surface scaling i don't think flight will be useful
How difficult? So difficult he literally doesn't land a single hit before passing out from exhaustion or something?i'm not saying it would be impossible, i even say that it's possible for him to touch her, i just think that it would be very diifficulty
You see, the issue with these is that several of these chapters are before she made the contract with the Darkness Devil. Her way of fighting entirely shifted when she was gifted some of the power from a Primordial Devil. Thus why she was far more leaning to sending dolls to attack or attacking herself without resorting to hiding unlike before.chapter 58: she sends one of he perfect dolls to turn people into dolls while she is far away with tolka
chapter 59:she sends her dolls to attack denji, power and some other devil hunters while she is in the park
chapter 62: she sends tolka inside a building to curse and kill denji while she is hidden somewhere
chapter 63: she makes 'grandpa'(one of her dolls) send everyone that was inside the building to hell while she watches from outside
chapter 64: she controls tolka and makes him go to hell to talk with the darkness devil while she is on earth waiting for the DD flesh
chapter 67 and 68:she was going to attack makima(her target) but denji attacked her first, she threw him away and let her dolls fight him and quanxi while she was inside a building, quanxi found her in that building so she gave her dolls their mind back...denji started feeling guilty and this forced quanxi to leave santa alone and go save denji, after that she tried to make a surprise attack on quanxi but it didn't work since hybrids have layered resistance to transmutation, after santa claus transformed she didn't even try to fight quanxi and just sent her new dolls to attack quanxi
chapter 69:she was forced to engage in combat with denji because denji was holding her with his chains
Technically Pochita, my mistake.denji has never defeated quanxi
Then how far will they start? If they start a hundred meters apart in a school, they'd need to find each other first to even fight. And when you aren't even allowing something as fundamental as Cursed Energy in this match, it seems stacked against him (Which tbf, Ig isn't that bad).I’ll clear it up. And no it won’t be tens of meters. Its a school not just a hallway. Both characters have fought starting off 100m away before in combat scenarios.
I mean, nothing stops either from just destroying the school in its entirey. Mahito blew up a Subway station while fighting Yuji and Todo. Dolls won't be an issue as they can't do any lasting "damage" to him, and he can simply transfigure them and store them inside himself to blast others out the way. Wouldn't have any difficulty navigating around them either.in that case i believe santa claus has the advantage
mahito speed amp won't be so useful, the fight happens inside a school so mahito will have less room to dodge, she can use her dolls to distract him(he doesn't have enough transfigurated humans to deal with them + they're gonna be turned into dolls), the moment mahito uses his abilities santa claus is going to know since she has a hivemind with her dolls, mahito can't transfigurate her dolls and they have enough durability to survive his attacks(and they can survive mortal injuries since they're dolls)
santa claus has 3 wincons letting her dolls touch him(even if he manages to manipulate his soul and make his body go back to normal he still doesnt resist her mind control or body puppetry), wearing him down(her dolls have immortality type 2 and fought against denji, quanxi and the other devil hunters for a entire day so they def have more stamina) or possibly bfr(she only used it once so her other wincons are more likely)
mahito only wincons are touching by using his speed amp(extremely difficulty due to the distance + her dolls that will get in his way) and possibly his de(but he would have to reach her first since his de doesn't have enough range to reach her unless he gets close)
they're not just mindless puppets tho, they learn and adapt while they are fightingHe was able to evade numerous homing lasers chasing him around for an extended period of time with his shapeshifting factor. I doubt mindless puppets are going to be much trouble in terms of impeding his navigation.
those impostors can't use transfiguration, right? aren't they just gonna become dolls too or get killed by them?He can shrink and escape their view, create distractions/imposters to take their attention off of him,
they're 100 meter apart he is just gonna meet more dolls on the wayblitz past them, etc.
how small can he become? cuz if he isn't small enough nothing stops the dolls from following himAnd his transfigured humans being converted to puppets won't be an issue. Their sole purpose would be to blast every other puppet out of his way by launching them as projectiles. Worst case scenario, he can playfully skip down the hall transfiguring puppets into stock he can use. Not like he needs to worry about them since they don't possess the means to permanently incapacitate him, let alone kill him.
When he transforms into an incredibly small bird and all the dolls lose sight of him, it will be pretty easy to navigate through them.
so difficult that he won't just go throught her dolls like they're nothing but not to the point that she wins 100% of the time because of themHow difficult? So difficult he literally doesn't land a single hit before passing out from exhaustion or something?
tbf she only engaged in close combat with denji while in her darkness form because he was right in front of her(and it was her mission to defeat him and mkm) while in this match they're 100 meters awayYou see, the issue with these is that several of these chapters are before she made the contract with the Darkness Devil. Her way of fighting entirely shifted when she was gifted some of the power from a Primordial Devil. Thus why she was far more leaning to sending dolls to attack or attacking herself without resorting to hiding unlike before.
fiends resist transmutation but she is able to transform them into dolls in her darkness form(where are you getting layered Transmutation from?).
they have higher ls so if they manage to hold him even for a second(like they did with denji) it would def be troublesome(he would inevitably be able to escape by shapeshifting tho)I mean, nothing stops either from just destroying the school in its entirey. Mahito blew up a Subway station while fighting Yuji and Todo. Dolls won't be an issue as they can't do any lasting "damage" to him, and he can simply transfigure them and store them inside himself to blast others out the way. Wouldn't have any difficulty navigating around them either.
denji only managed to get close while she was at full power twice and that was because she had just transformed right in front of him and the other time it was because she was distracted with quanxiYou're grossly underestimating Mahito's ability to get close. Santa didn't fight a single person who couldn't get past her devils to fight her directly.
she has been creating dolls for years i doubt he would be able to make her lose all of her dolls in a single nightAnd as they're destroyed and transfigured, she'll start running lower and lower on stock. Mahito who has more going for him than any other opponent she faced would easily be able to get close in touch her once.
i don't think so, maybe she shares a soul with her "perfect dolls" but i don't think that her other dolls doThe way I see it, they start off (perhaps on different floors?) in the school. Mahito plays around for a bit, converting dolls into stock to experiment with his power (If they're a hivemind, is it possible they share a soul? At worst, I feel they do. At best, they all have their own soul. If they share one though, all it takes is Mahito transfiguring one).
I thought dollification would work but ig it won't due to mahito soul manipulationThis match up is confusing, anyways how is Santa even going to harm Mahito?
Fair enough. They don't seem to be very intelligent, but they can at least adapt.they're not just mindless puppets tho, they learn and adapt while they are fighting
nakamura one shot the dolls with kon before they could react but after seeing it once they adapted and were able to dodge it with ease
Which is fine. Mahito could just sacrifice transfigured humans because it'll distract the puppets or get them out of his way.those impostors can't use transfiguration, right? aren't they just gonna become dolls too or get killed by them?
If he's too fast for them to hit, I don't see why he'd have to stop and fight them. Especially when he can just distract them with hundreds of transfigured humans if he needs to. Or just transfigure them which happens like instantly. They buy at most seconds of time.they're 100 meter apart he is just gonna meet more dolls on the way
they're in a school full of her dolls inevitably he is gonna have to directly fight them to reach santa
Pretty damn small. I'll show a few instances. Against Kokichi, he turns into a small mouse. When fighting Yuji and Nanami, he shrunk down enough to fit through a sewer lid. Split up into small balls. He should theoretically be able to shrink himself down to a size smaller than he can transfigure fragile human souls. Which is roughly smaller than a finger. Granted those scans are early on (And Mahito actively improves). And we're shown later they can be even smaller (Around the size of teeth).how small can he become? cuz if he isn't small enough nothing stops the dolls from following him
Which isn't an excuse. She could target him with her "countless" dolls to overwhelm him while hiding. Never risking revealing herself. But she chooses to. She didn't need to come out in person to kill Denji.tbf she only engaged in close combat with denji while in her darkness form because he was right in front of her(and it was her mission to defeat him and mkm) while in this match they're 100 meters away
I'm pretty sure that was because they were already dead... It was stated before that Fiends are immune to her Dollification. If a fiend is killed, it's essentially just a corpse of a human. Don't see any reason to interpret that as layered transmutation (Unless she transmuted an alive fiend I forgot about).fiends resist transmutation but she is able to transform them into dolls in her darkness form(this isn't important in this match tho)
I think he wouldn't avoid them from the start as they're a perfect opportunity to experiment with his power. Which he loves doing in-character, and is the reason for his absurd growth in the series. Though I think once he gets tired of that, he wouldn't have much trouble avoiding them. He can very easily clear out an area with a concussive blasts that sends tens if not hundreds of dolls flying out the building. And it'd be hard to touch the dude who transforms you via contact.they have higher ls so if they manage to hold him even for a second(like they did with denji) it would def be troublesome(he would inevitably be able to escape by shapeshifting tho)
he probably isn't gonna avoid them from the start since they can't harm his soul
Which is valid but... she didn't even attempt to try and run away from either using any sneaky tactics. She can swap bodies, order dolls to distract them (even if very briefly), and yet doesn't try either. The most she does is order dolls to attack them. But she doesn't use that opportunity to even hide. Hell, she came out physically to try and sneak-attack her. That doesn't seem like a person who wants to stay hidden and have their puppets do all the work.denji only managed to get close while she was at full power twice and that was because she had just transformed right in front of him and the other time it was because she was distracted with quanxi
That are scattered across the globe. She'll eventually run dry of dolls in their general vicinity.she has been creating dolls for years i doubt he would be able to make her lose all of her dolls in a single night
Why not the other dolls? They are a Hivemind after all. Connected to one being. Whatever pain she receives, she can distribute. Don't see why something inflicted on them wouldn't be inflicted onto her tbf. If it were just something that affected the body, sure. But Mahito warps the soul itself. And while I agree she'd have a bit more incentive to try and hide, she doesn't even know what his technique does. She would probably be under the impression she would be fine like how she believed she'd be fine with Cosmo's technique.i don't think so, maybe she shares a soul with her "perfect dolls" but i don't think that her other dolls do
if he does what you said and start using his ability on her dolls santa is going to find out(due to their hivemind) and then she would have a motive to either switch bodies(to avoid him) or use bfr
I think if she's pushed against a corner long enough she might bust it out (Since when she did use it, it was only for one purpose). But I don't think it's likely to happen before Mahito touches her literally one time.I think her only wincon is bfr but she only did it once in the manga so idk if it's ooc or not
During the Shibuya incident, he had accumulated hundreds in the train.He’s never done this or even something close to it.
I was referring to an earlier point where I said Mahito could stockpile Dolls from Santa and summon them when needed...You said summon, he didn’t summon those. Those were humans trapped in the train and Mahito went in there and soul maniped them all
How inconvenient is that during battle? He’s got a hundred plus dolls attacking him, he has to touch every single one to collect them and also shove them down his throat.I was referring to an earlier point where I said Mahito could stockpile Dolls from Santa and summon them when needed...
Not very inconvenient? He can just run through hallways with his hands out touching everyone. And ingest them in some fashion (Don't see why he couldn't transfigure multiple mouths on his body). Not like the process takes stupid long or anything.How inconvenient is that during battle? He’s got a hundred plus dolls attacking him, he has to touch every single one to collect them and also shove them down his throat.
No first grade and higher are physical. And I've addressed this invisibility thing a lot lol.Can Santa Claus touch Mahito at all? Wouldn't you need non-physical interaction to be able to see and interact with cursed spirits?
By the time Mahito got within several meters, he'd be visible. Also, the feeling of death can be felt even before Yuji gets in the school. An extra example is that the kids could hear the curses before getting sick by it. So I'd say at worst Mahito would be somewhat visible and at best completely visible.Nah. Yuji could feel their pressure and see them pretty soon in the series without any training. In Shibuya the people also could see the curses and they weren't in immediate danger. Its also special places like a school where they can see them. If it makes it any better I can just put Location as a school or hospital if you want.
Oh yeah, now I see the intangibility thing is only for the lower-grade cursed spirits. And yeah, you do reference the invisibility aspect, which isn't so extreme as to make it a total disadvantage for Santa Claus.No first grade and higher are physical. And I've addressed this invisibility thing a lot lol.
By the time Mahito got within several meters, he'd be visible. Also, the feeling of death can be felt even before Yuji gets in the school. An extra example is that the kids could hear the curses before getting sick by it. So I'd say at worst Mahito would be somewhat visible and at best completely visible.