Lupin III Downgrade

[DimeUhDozen]

This feat is currently used as a supporting feat for the verse, but from the discussion below it, it seems no one actually scales.

There's also this mansion feat, which is supposed to scale to Fujiko and the villain of the week. While the latter is true, Fujiko was nowhere near the explosion while George Marshall took it point blank. The problem is that Lupin and the gang never actually throw hands with the man in the episode. I looked for any reasons for them to scale physically to this feat, and I couldn't find anything save for Jigen threatening him with a gun that he never actually fires.

There's also this feat which Fujiko seems to survive. But the problem with this is that she's never shown on screen surviving it. The episode ends before we can see what happened to her. She might have escaped. She might have actually died if this is a one-shot self-contained episode. So, the best that could be given from this is a "possibly 8-C" although due to the ambiguousness of the feat, it's likely we ought not to use it in general.

8-B is also kind of dubious because the feat was accomplished with Zantetsuken, a sword that's said throughout the series to be able to cut any object. The page says Lupin has fought Goemon on several occasions, but it's scanless and it never shows him taking hits from Zantetsuken. I'm sure there might be some examples of this considering how massive of a franchise Lupin III is, but right now, the only feat we can scale the gang to is this, which is Small Building level.

Update: Lupin has gotten one-shotted by Zantetsuken in a fight with Goemon.

Scaling the main cast to Hawk from Goemon's Blood Spray is also invalid as The Lupin IIIrd continuity takes place in another continuity separate from the anime, which is more in line with Monkey Punch's original manga. Any references to Lupin IIIrd works should be removed from the main profiles and made as a separate one. Hawk should no longer scale to Anime Goemon.

The ``LUPIN THE IIIRD'' series continues the adult and dangerous world of the original Monkey Punch and depicts the encounters and trajectories of young Lupine and his friends. To date, three works have been released as a series: "Daisuke Jigen's Tombstone" (2013), "Blood Smoke of Ishikawa Goemon" (2015), and "Fujiko Mine's Lies" (2019).

It's not mentioned here, but A Woman Called Fujiko Mine is also a part of this series. Mamo also shows up at the end of Jigen's Gravestone, but we don't know whether or not this leads to Mystery of Mamo since he never showed up in this continuity again even after two films.

A list of abilities that need to go because of this continuity shift:

Spoiler: Lupin

Pain Tolerance (Only the Blood Spray scan), Enhanced Senses (For preparation goggles from blood spray). The following intelligence feats: "Even though Lupin never saw Okuzaki's device, he was able to create a better one and he hacked Okuzaki's"

Spoiler: Goemon

Precognition, Stamina: "He can fight even severely bruised and even after having chuck of flesh cut from both his arms."

And all renders from The Lupin IIIrd continuity need to go as well.

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, SamanPatou (2)
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Stefano4444]

There's also this mansion feat, which is supposed to scale to Fujiko and the villain of the week. While the latter is true, Fujiko was nowhere near the explosion while George Marshall took it point blank. The problem is that Lupin and the gang never actually throw hands with the man in the episode. I looked for any reasons for them to scale physically to this feat, and I couldn't find anything save for Jigen threatening him with a gun that he never actually fires.

Why they may have never physically fought him, in the context of the series he its just a regular normal guy with no combat skills with no indication of him be somehow physically superior than any members of Lupin's gang, its not unreasonable to assume that other characters should physically scale to him, and its not like its the only time someone in the series survived explosions, either be the main cast or secondary characters.

There's also this feat which Fujiko seems to survive. But the problem with this is that she's never shown on screen surviving it. The episode ends before we can see what happened to her. She might have escaped. She might have actually died if this is a one-shot self-contained episode. So, the best that could be given from this is a "possibly 8-C".

We don't see her actually be hit by the explosion true, but nothing suggest that she either outrun the bomb or that she even realize that there was one inside the car, as otherwise the joke wouldn't work.

Also while the Lupin III older animated series then to have a more episodic format compare to the recent ones it doesn't mean that everything its self-contained, its more akin to The Simpsons and Spongebob's series which stories are more episodic and self-contained but they all still count as canon.

Meaning Fujiko definitely didn't die and that its more likely that she just took the explosion and survive for another day like most characters usually do.

8-B is also kind of dubious because the feat was accomplished with Zantetsuken, a sword that's said throughout the series to be able to cut any object. The page says Lupin has fought Goemon on several occasions, but it's scanless and it never shows him taking hits from Zantetsuken. I'm sure there might be some examples of this considering how massive of a franchise Lupin III is, but right now, the only feat we can scale the gang to is this, which is Small Building level.

While the fact was perform via Zantetsuken, there had been a few characters across the series who were able to match Zantetsuken's strikes with either their own weapons like Flinch from the very first movie, or even with their own physical strength like Hawk.

This feat is currently used as a supporting feat for the verse, but from the discussion below it, it seems no one actually scales.

While it can't be used to directly scale anyone, it does show proof that characters be able to survive explosions of such magnitude.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Why they may have never physically fought him, in the context of the series he its just a regular normal guy with no combat skills with no indication of him be somehow physically superior than any members of Lupin's gang, its not unreasonable to assume that other characters should physically scale to him, and its not like its the only time someone in the series survived explosions, either be the main cast or secondary characters.

He’s a thief himself with ten criminal offenses. Even then, you would need direct proof that he actually scales to Lupin.

We don't see her actually be hit by the explosion true, but nothing suggest that she either outrun the bomb or that she even realize that there was one inside the car, as otherwise the joke wouldn't work, also while the Lupin III older animated series then to have a more episodic format compare to the recent ones it doesn't mean that everything its self-contained, its more akin to The Simpsons and Spongebob's series most episodess's stories are only self-contained but they all still count as canon.

Meaning Fujiko definitely didn't die and that its more likely that she just took the explosion and survive for another day like most characters usually do.

Okay, but we still need proof that Fujiko scales to the bomb. The thieves regularly escape traps like this through impossible means so we can’t say for sure if she took it or just took some other option. It’s a matter of conjecture unless we know for sure which is why the feat ought not to be used in the first place.

While the fact was perform via Zantetsuken, there had been a few characters across the series who were able to match Zantetsuken's strikes with either their own weapons like Flinch from the very first movie, or even with their own physical strength like Hawk.

Scans?

While it can't be used to directly scale anyone, it does show proof that characters be able to survive explosions of such magnitude.

That’s just it, it can’t be used to directly scale anyone.

 

[Stefano4444]

He’s a thief himself with ten criminal offenses.

That doesn't mean that he its a capable fighter or that he its somehow physically more durable to the rest of the cast.

Even then, you would need direct proof that he actually scales to Lupin.

You mean like how Jigen could threaten him to shot him with his pistol and he actually comply? If that guy was literally a tier above the rest of the cast i'm pretty sure he wouldn't care about it.

Scans?

For Hawk the scans/gifs are already listed in his profile, for Flinch i don't have any videos or scans but i do remember that Goemon fought Flinch in a sword fight and the latter was more than capable to pair Goemon's slashes and his armor protect him from Zantetsuken and he was defeated only when Goemon slashed his face with wasn't protected.

And it also occur something similar in The Secret of the Twilight Gemini where Goemon too fought in another swordfight against Sadachiyo which blades too could pair Goemon's slashes and it even broken the Zantetsuken, only for Goemon to actually catch Sadachiyo's sword with his bare hands.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

That doesn't mean that he its a capable fighter or that he its somehow physically more durable to the rest of the cast.


You mean like how Jigen could threaten him to shot him with his pistol and he actually comply? If that guy was literally a tier above the rest of the cast i'm pretty sure he wouldn't care about it.

We still don’t really know if the gun would have done anything. He was probably more worried about him being outnumbered and Goemon was definitely more than capable of slicing him to bits.

For Hawk the scans/gifs are already listed in his profile, for Flinch i don't have any videos or scans but i do remember that Goemon fought Flinch in a sword fight and the latter was more than capable to pair Goemon's slashes and his armor protect him from Zantetsuken and he was defeated only when Goemon slashed his face with wasn't protected.

The only scan I see of Hawks is him getting his arm sliced off by Zantetsuken which isn’t exactly convincing. This still doesn’t prove that Lupin and the gang are comparable to Zantetsuken.

And it also occur something similar in The Secret of the Twilight Gemini where Goemon too fought in another swordfight against Sadachiyo which blades too could pair Goemon's slashes and it even broken the Zantetsuken, only for Goemon to actually catch Sadachiyo's sword with his bare hands.

Would need to see a scan for this.

 

[Stefano4444]

We still don’t really know if the gun would have done anything.

Then why everyone where acting as Jigen was more than capable to at least harm him? Perhaps because It was capable to do it.

He was probably more worried about him being outnumbered and Goemon was definitely more than capable of slicing him to bits.

Be outnumber meant little if no one can harm him, and he was more worry about Jigen's pistol rather than Goemon's sword.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I will say that I definitely recall watching a part 2 episode where Lupin and Goemon throw hands and basically beat each other to the point of exhaustion, but I don't remember the exact episode. I could probably find it, given time.

It may be worth looking for other feats in the meantime, though.

 

[Tots_Real]

Wasn't there a major plot point in Part 5 where one of the reasons why Goemon fallowed Lupin for so long was due to partially wanting to beat him to prove that he was the strongest man in the world since he saw Lupin as the strongest and him nearly killing him caused him to rethink the purpose of their partnership?
It's been a while since I watched Part 5 but I remember something like that. Basically Goemon considers Lupin the strongest so anyone else in the setting should be considered lower than them unless outright stated.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Then why everyone where acting as Jigen was more than capable to at least harm him? Perhaps because It was capable to do it.


Be outnumber meant little if no one can harm him, and he was more worry about Jigen's pistol rather than Goemon's sword.

Keep in mind, this was before he was able to survive the explosion, so he probably didn’t even know he could survive that.

I will say that I definitely recall watching a part 2 episode where Lupin and Goemon throw hands and basically beat each other to the point of exhaustion, but I don't remember the exact episode. I could probably find it, given time.

It may be worth looking for other feats in the meantime, though.

Yeah, I did find that. But it was just hand-to-hand. His sword wasn’t involved at all.

Wasn't there a major plot point in Part 5 where one of the reasons why Goemon fallowed Lupin for so long was due to partially wanting to beat him to prove that he was the strongest man in the world since he saw Lupin as the strongest and him nearly killing him caused him to rethink the purpose of their partnership?
It's been a while since I watched Part 5 but I remember something like that. Basically Goemon considers Lupin the strongest so anyone else in the setting should be considered lower than them unless outright stated.

I actually did find the fight and Lupin usually attacks from a distance with his gun with Goemon deflecting it. It's clear that Lupin is very skilled combatant and that's what makes him a dangerous opponent for Goemon, the best in the world. But ultimately, Lupin does get one-shot by Zantetsuken and left in a critically injured state, unable to continue fighting.

 

[Tots_Real]

I actually did find the fight and Lupin usually attacks from a distance with his gun with Goemon deflecting it. It's clear that Lupin is very skilled combatant and that's what makes him a dangerous opponent for Goemon, the best in the world. But ultimately, Lupin does get one-shot by Zantetsuken and left in a critically injured state, unable to continue fighting.

Yeah and most people would die from a hit from a serious hit from Zantetsuken. That's not the point, the point is that Goemon considers himself and Lupin at the top of the verse so any feat from another character in the verse should scale to them outside of characters who are actively said to be stronger than them.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Yeah and most people would die from a hit from a serious hit from Zantetsuken. That's not the point, the point is that Goemon considers himself and Lupin at the top of the verse so any feat from another character in the verse should scale to them outside of characters who are actively said to be stronger than them.

I don't think that we should even be able to scale people that get one-shotted, bleeding out profusely, and knocked out to a weapon they're using. Goemon is still as strong as Lupin. His fists and gunshots can hurt him. It's just Zantetsuken that's stronger, and it's Zantetsuken that has the 8-B feat. If Lupin just gets one-shotted by the thing that was able to make that feat possible then there's no reason to scale him that high. Lupin had to even be hospitalized for a time following the attack.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks okay.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Looks okay.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Tots_Real]

I don't think that we should even be able to scale people that get one-shotted, bleeding out profusely, and knocked out to a weapon they're using. Goemon is still as strong as Lupin. His fists and gunshots can hurt him. It's just Zantetsuken that's stronger, and it's Zantetsuken that has the 8-B feat. If Lupin just gets one-shotted by the thing that was able to make that feat possible then there's no reason to scale him that high. Lupin had to even be hospitalized for a time following the attack.

Yeah but Lupin wasn't cut in half so his body would be harder to cut than any Zantetsuken has cut previously.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Yeah but Lupin wasn't cut in half so his body would be harder to cut than any Zantetsuken has cut previously.

Or the slash just wasn't that deep. We see that the wound was only cut across his chest, not his entire body.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Or the slash just wasn't that deep. We see that the wound was only cut across his chest, not his entire body.

Brother, we literally saw Goemon locking in, homie legit says that Lupin is one of the strongest he's faced... By no means was that a casual slash, even Goemon panicked, and the sword cuts more then one slice... But multiple slices (0:03) in one casual slash (these were not the only times mind you, it's a ruinning gag! XD).

Ultimately, there were others who stated the scaling being still there: Lupawn/Co. still traded blows with Goemon (even Zenigata can subdue him too) who tanked hits from those who blocked said Zantesuken like Hawk, Flinch, even Jigen Daisuke blocked a slash with his firearm if I recall (furthermore, Goemon also holds major respects to Jigen's skills as well)...

Overall I cannot be the only one who sheerly disagrees with the downgrade. I dearly advice if Dragon Medaus (amongst other mods/admins who will look at it) need to revise the other scans with a more actual deeper lens... or unforseen predicaments will form (that's not the only shady downgrade I have seen here recently, but that's for another time).

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Brother, we literally saw Goemon locking in, homie legit says that Lupin is one of the strongest he's faced... And by no means was that a casual slash, even Goemon panicked, and the sword cuts more then one slice... But multiple slices (0:03) in one slash (these were not the only times mind you, it's a ruinning gag! XD).

We're not talking about that feat. In the Part V fight, there was only one wound across his chest, and even then he was down for the count. If we were to scale Lupin to this, then by that logic, he should go down the same way, completely unable to continue the fight, if he were to endure a hit equal to what Goemon would give in one attack, then he would just die against every 8-B opponent we put him up against.

Ultimately, there were others who stated the scaling being still there: Lupawn/Co. still traded blows with Goemon who tanked hits from those who blocked said Zantesuken like Hawk, Flinch, even Jigen Daisuke blocked a slash with his firearm one time if I recall (furthermore, Goemon also holds major respects to Jigen's skills as well)...
Overall I cannot be the only one who sheerly disagree with the downgrade. I dearly advice if Dragon Medaus (amongst other mods/admins) need to revise the other scans with more actual care tbh or more predicaments will form (that's not the only shady downgrade I have seen here recently, but that's for another time).

I keep hearing "if I recall", only for you guys to show up with no scans. If you want to prove your argument, you're going to have to back it up. We clearly see that Lupin is able to get one-shotted by the sword clear as day, and "he survived" isn't a strong enough argument if he isn't able to continue the fight.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Another thing I want to bring up with the Hawk scaling is that it might not even be canon to the anime.

The Lupin IIIrd continuity mainly follows Monkey Punch's original manga, consisting of A Woman Called Fujiko Mine, Jigen's Gravestone, Goemon's Blood Spray (where Hawk comes from), and Fujiko's Lie. As far as I can tell, there isn't a solid connection to the main continuity and seems more in line with the more adult works of the original.

The ``LUPIN THE IIIRD'' series continues the adult and dangerous world of the original Monkey Punch and depicts the encounters and trajectories of young Lupine and his friends. To date, three works have been released as a series: "Daisuke Jigen's Tombstone" (2013), "Blood Smoke of Ishikawa Goemon" (2015), and "Fujiko Mine's Lies" (2019).

 

[SamanPatou]

I can see the explosions being used as a "possibly" rating. While they don't outright scale, there's still a bit of grain in them that could be taken.

I can see Zantetsuken having a higher rating. Having other characters parrying it with weapons doesn't outright mean they can do the same physically, just as it happens in real life, and this seems to be one of those cases where the sword is strong mostly because of itself rather than because of the person who swings it.

I can't speak about the canon too much, since I'm not that familiar with the franchise, but the argument seems good.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Just coming back from a rewatch of Mystery of Mamo. Flinch was only able to take a hit from his sword because of his metal alloy vest and otherwise, he was easily able to slice his flesh into sushi. So no one actually scales to this except for Flinch's vest's durability. No one really harms Flinch either. There's a scene where Jigen gets him nervous because he's aiming his gun at his head, but this is an area completely unprotected by the vest. That's about it.

 

[Stefano4444]

Keep in mind, this was before he was able to survive the explosion, so he probably didn’t even know he could survive that.

Does matter if he knew if he was going to survive the explosion or not? He still survive it.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Does matter if he knew if he was going to survive the explosion or not? He still survive it.

It does because it dismantles your argument.

Your argument is that because Marsel was afraid of being shot by Jigen, he scales.

But Marsel did not yet know that he could survive the bomb.

Ergo, everything stays the same.

 

[Stefano4444]

The Lupin IIIrd continuity mainly follows Monkey Punch's original manga, consisting of A Woman Called Fujiko Mine, Jigen's Gravestone, Goemon's Blood Spray (where Hawk comes from), and Fujiko's Lie. As far as I can tell, there isn't a solid connection to the main continuity and seems more in line with the more adult works of the original.

The site doesn't actually mention A Woman Called Fujiko Mine, only the other 3 as part of the same mini-series.

And while those are more in line with the original manga, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are not canon since Part 1 was too much closer to the original manga compare to Part 2 and especially Part 3.

Not only that but in Jigen's Gravestone the actually see the appearance of Mano at the end of the movie (Hawk too), the main antagonist of Lupin III's first movie, a movie which can definitely be consider canon as it was been mention back in Part 5.

Your argument is that because Marsel was afraid of being shot by Jigen, he scales.

My main argument was that Marsel (in the context of the series) its just a regular human that was never potrayed as physically stronger than everyone else like with Hawk, meaning the rest of the gang should scaled, even if they haven't actually fought him.

The Jigen's part its more of support, as it does show that the isn't potrayed as physically indestructible.

Just coming back from a rewatch of Mystery of Mamo. Flinch was only able to take a hit from his sword because of his metal alloy vest and otherwise, he was easily able to slice his flesh into sushi. So no one actually scales to this except for Flinch's vest's durability. No one really harms Flinch either.

While its true that Flinch's armor can't be used, Flinch's sword was able to cut the Zantetsuken's top.

And yes its was a already been damage when Goemon tried to cut the armor, i'm pretty sure a sword swing by a regular human wouldn't have been to harm it further.

Like a tank could had been heavely damaged by an anti-tank missile, that doesn't mean know a regular soldier can destroy it with by punching it or with a machine gun.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

The site doesn't actually mention A Woman Called Fujiko Mine, only the other 3 as part of the same mini-series.

And while those are more in line with the original manga, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are not canon since Part 1 was too much closer to the original manga compare to Part 2 and especially Part 3.

Not only that but in Jigen's Gravestone the actually see the appearance of Mano at the end of the movie (Hawk too), the main antagonist of Lupin III's first movie, a movie which can definitely be consider canon as it was been mention back in Part 5.

Yes, but the series is just in the same continuity. It's stated as much in this article.

The way it's quoted, it's stated it's a continuation of the original Monkey Punch world. Not the anime.

Also, the same villains can appear in different adaptations. Like Thanos in the MCU and the comics. And cartoons and video games and so on. Mamo's appearance does not necessarily mean that Mystery of Mamo will happen in this canon.

My main argument was that Marsel (in the context of the series) its just a regular human that was never potrayed as physically stronger than everyone else like with Hawk, meaning the rest of the gang should scaled, even if they haven't actually fought him.

The Jigen's part its more of support, as it does show that the isn't potrayed as physically indestructible.

You'd need proof of that though. What you're doing is making an assumption of which we can't make any concrete proof.

Besides, if you're talking about "portraying", you're missing one key element from the episode. The entire concept of the episode actually. It's that Lupin is deathly afraid of the bomb that was planted on him by Marcel, the bomb that caused the explosion in the first place. Why should Lupin scale to the bomb when Lupin himself believed that it would kill him?

While its true that Flinch's armor can't be used, Flinch's sword was able to cut the Zantetsuken's top.

And yes its was a already been damage when Goemon tried to cut the armor, i'm pretty sure a sword swing by a regular human wouldn't have been to harm it further.

Like a tank could had been heavely damaged by an anti-tank missile, that doesn't mean know a regular soldier can destroy it with by punching it or with a machine gun.

Wow it was almost like Goemon himself didn't say that it wasn't because of Flinch that the sword was broken but his own lack of skill.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

By the way, here's Lupin being given a direct demonstration of the bomb and going from cool and collected to rightfully terrified.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Been two days and I've gotten admin input.

Should be good to be added.

 

[Stefano4444]

Well i guess there is no point of continue if nobody else has anything to say, i hoped that at least that the 8-C remained as just possibly.