Low Tier Marvel Comics Speed Revisions

[FinePoint]

This is the "Varies 10-C to 1-A Gwenpool plothax" crap. Terrible idea lol.

If there is no variability mechanic, list them Unknown. End of story.

I don't think it's helpful to our readers to just list a statistic as unknown because we personally consider the portrayed range too extreme.

It is not our fault if a character genuinely swings anywhere from 10-C to 1-A based on the writer's whims.

 

[The_Impress]

I don't think it's helpful to our readers to just list a statistic as unknown because we personally consider the portrayed range too extreme.

It is, if the range is too extreme and it's inconsistent, we don't need to act like it is consistent or headcanon in mechanics that don't exist. We HAVE NEVER listed Variability in files for inconsistency in any other file (in fact remind me if we even allowed it for loose mechanical justifications like Toon Force), so creating exceptions for ONE SPECIFIC VERSE is nonsense.

Like Fine, Marvel Comics as it stands on the wiki has no rules that makes it a mechanically different verse to index, really the only rules we have are in regards to indexing, which is reduce bloat for supporterbase and staff checkers, and have better scrutiny for feats. I genuinely don't get why the new trend with supporters nowadays is trying to bend the rules to make their verse special fairies or something.

It is not our fault if a character genuinely swings anywhere from 10-C to 1-A based on the writer's whims.

Give an example. Again off the top of my head there are VERY FEW characters you can draw NO CONSISTENCY for, and they aren't exactly the characters you're thinking lol.

Like I don't think your big revision is exclusively for Mr. Hyde. If you're talking Spider-Man or Thor or something, then no, you can get a consistency for them, they're not gonna sound pretty maybe, we aren't doing weirdass Death Battle type scaling, but it's gonna be correct lol

 

[FinePoint]

Snip

My proposal would be for the wiki as a whole, not just Marvel.

I think there's long been a standing issue where if a character is clearly portrayed as one level 99% of the time, but some far higher level 1% of the time, we will just list them as that higher number. We're naturally biased towards the strongest showing of the character. We technically have policies against anti-feats and outliers but they're rarely every enforced, and they're not always applicable for this issue either.

As a parting staff member once said (paraphrasing): "We're told that a guy who regularly throws cars around as his main attack can casually destroy a universe."

My idea would just be something along the lines of having a 'typical' rating and a 'peak' rating.
We can't always just discard the higher feats, but I do think we could better acknowledge the inconsistency in our ratings.

 

[The_Impress]

We're naturally biased towards the strongest showing of the character.

I mean yeah. It's called wanking. Solution isn't to acknowledge it, solution is to remove it.

What is this "The Purge reduces crime rates" type logic lol, like no they're just gonna wank both low end and high end then, or WORSE you just turned an indexing wiki into a Respect Thread.

Like fundamentally this is straight up not what the wiki is about and there are better platforms for it.

Anyways we are getting off track then.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

A variable tier is fine for someone like Incredible Hulk, "The angrier he gets, the stronger he gets." Or many other characters who either have their own explanations or many other verses have things where every character from said verse have their own things to justify variable tiers. But the Street tiers of Captain America, Spiderman, Hawkeye, Daredevil, none of them have Hulk's anger based empowerment system. Nor do they have a "Power of Friendship" or Empathetic Willpower empowerment system seen in many other verses. And as a result, variable tiers would just be trying to squeeze treating inconsistencies as a superpower that those characters really weren't meant to have. So a consistent speed rating within a ballpark of the case having multiple feats on that level should be prioritized. Impress and ArmorChompy are correct in their posts above.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I genuinely don't get why the new trend with supporters nowadays is trying to bend the rules to make their verse special fairies or something.

I've been meaning to ask this, but does the inconsistency come from internal scaling or calculated feats? Like, is there no consistency of who's faster than the other or no consistency for what characters can and can't dodge?




Also, question for everyone, are we actually going with "Unknown" for every single Marvel file?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

My idea would just be something along the lines of having a 'typical' rating and a 'peak' rating.
We can't always just discard the higher feats, but I do think we could better acknowledge the inconsistency in our ratings.

What is this "The Purge reduces crime rates" type logic lol, like no they're just gonna wank both low end and high end then, or WORSE you just turned an indexing wiki into a Respect Thread.

And as a result, variable tiers would just be trying to squeeze treating inconsistencies as a superpower that those characters really weren't meant to have.

Don't we already have a solution for this with "possibly" ratings?

 

[The_Impress]

Yeah-ish. Possibly/Likely ratings are usually discouraged from use but it works.

I've been meaning to ask this, but does the inconsistency come from internal scaling or calculated feats? Like, is there no consistency of who's faster than the other or no consistency for what characters can and can't dodge?

It depends, so for instance the way I listed Northstar is probably demonstrative

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Northstar_(Marvel_Comics)

Northstar is a speedster so I purposely kept in mind that and tried cataloguing every notable speed feat I came across, result I got was an exhaustion/physics-based variability and even with that a **** ton of antifeats and contradictions (which I have listed in the Notes section).

I wanna say here Northstar is uniquely advantaged here too since he has a stated top speed that gets corroborated multiple times, in general he's a speedster so he has mechanical focus, and he doesn't have that many appearances in the long run, and STILL his speed rating is weirdly convoluted and not without many antifeats and outliers.

If there is a consistency, it looks way different than the way we list it, which is one rating and call it a day.

Also, question for everyone, are we actually going with "Unknown" for every single Marvel file?

I mean, unless people are willing to do the work, best course of action is to do that and not lie ig lol.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I mean, unless people are willing to do the work, best course of action is to do that and not lie ig lol.

Now is speed in a few weeks every Marvel/DC character has no tier and are unknown in every single stats from AP to Durability with unknown LS,SS and intelligence because its too inconsistent.

 

[The_Impress]

Now is speed in a few weeks every Marvel/DC character has no tier and are unknown in every single stats from AP to Durability with unknown LS,SS and intelligence because its too inconsistent.

Slippery slope - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Slippery slope - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can call it whatever you want but it's exactly what you are arguing for, your argument is of inconsistencies which is true for all statistics, if it's accepted that speed is too inconsistent to give a concrete tier what's stopping the same thing happening for the rest of the statistics? I mean this thread has over 10 calcs and still not enough, Spiderman's H8-C has less support that this, Thor's 3-C has less support, LS for class M has less support than this.

 

[Armorchompy]

Could we just dismiss street tiers scaling to these faster guys as outliers too?

Why should we do that, when it's consistent? These aren't random one-off things it's just how the verse works.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Why should we do that, when it's consistent? These aren't random one-off things it's just how the verse works.

Is it? Where did you take that from? Team books where even Thor is moving at the same speed as Captain America? Or one off team ups for a single story in a 50 issue solo comic?

 

[The_Impress]

You can call it whatever you want

No it's not whatever, it's a fallacy. We don't allow fallacious arguments to be used on the wiki, repeated offenses are grounds for action. You're also strawmanning and many other things which if I was more pro-active in keeping track I'd point out, but frankly it's a waste of time.

So keeping count.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Why should we do that, when it's consistent? These aren't random one-off things it's just how the verse works.

Just asking.

 

[The_Impress]

mean this thread has over 10 calcs and still not enough

700/10 is 70 per every calc

, Spiderman's H8-C has less support that this,

High 8-C is like, 100 and it has like 7 or 8 feats, and corroborative feats below. you tell me which has more backing?

Like, are you serious right now lol

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

700/10 is 70 per every calc

Because you refuse to talk about who scales to it, actually 700 is based on the premise that every hypersonic will go to sub relativistic which is not the case, based on the OP less than 100 characters with pages would be affected by the upgrade

High 8-C is like, 100 and it has like 7 or 8 feats, and corroborative feats below. you tell me which has more backing?

123 H8-C
Of which Nuke is not usable as it was made by Spino who makes bad pixel scaling and was mentioned in another thread.
Black Widow is a bomb that requires prep time and don't even know if she used it more than once

 

[Rex_Eckles]

The verse page only lists about 8 feats consistent with the current Hypersonic tier, all of them performed by street tiers. Do we need more calcs in general then?

 

[The_Impress]

123 H8-C
Of which Nuke is not usable as it was made by Spino who makes bad pixel scaling and was mentioned in another thread.
Black Widow is a bomb that requires prep time and don't even know if she used it more than once

Even 125/5 is 25/1, which is leagues less than 70/1

Also this is calcs, not feats, they have tank and plane busting, shit considered 8-C+ that can upscale to High 8-C, as well as sheer size.

Because you refuse to talk about who scales to it,

Quote where I said I refuse to let anyone talk about who scales. Refresh me where I said this.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Even 125/5 is 25/1, which is leagues less than 70/1

Also this is calcs, not feats, they have tank and plane busting, shit considered 8-C+ that can upscale to High 8-C, as well as sheer size.

The op are calcs not feats too. Not 70/1, it's at best 20/1 I don't know why you keep acting like the OP wants to upgrade all the 700 hypersonic characters to sub relativistic when the very OP clearly states that Captain America and co will just scale to High hypersonic and discussing if Spider people could potencially upgrade.

Quote where I said I refuse to let anyone talk about who scales. Refresh me where I said this.

Considering you keep talking about "the 700+ characters" when the OP at no point says that they are all supposed to be upgraded to sub relativistic, I think you are refusing to talk about it.

 

[The_Impress]

Considering you keep talking about "the 700+ characters" when the OP at no point says that they are all supposed to be upgraded to sub relativistic, I think you are refusing to talk about it.

So you can't quote shit, and just strawmanned me. Got it.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

So you can't quote shit, and just strawmanned me. Got it.

Most definetly not strawmanning, if something you are the one doing it when you corrupted the OP's argument by saying all 700 characters would be upgraded.

 

[The_Impress]

Most definetly not strawmanning

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man"), instead of the opponent's proposition.

Considering you keep talking about "the 700+ characters" when the OP at no point says that they are all supposed to be upgraded to sub relativistic, I think you are refusing to talk about it.

How many logical jumps did you make to get from "You are affecting scaling of 700 characters" to "I AM BANNING ANY AND ALL DISCUSSION OF SCALING AND REFUSING TO LET THIS THREAD PROCEED"

Literally just inventing shit.

 

[Armorchompy]

Suig you are just completely derailing at this point, as you've done pretty often in threads like these. I think it's to a thread-bannable extent so I'd appreciate if you could stop.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Everyone is derailing here, after over 8 pages and 99% is completely unrelated to what the OP proposes.
Where are the opinions about Captain America's new calc which is literally the first point in the OP.
And no one has said a thing about discussing a list of characters that would scale to the sub relativistic l which again it's one of the points in the OP, no one is commenting on if those calcs can or not scale to reaction combat speed.
No one is talking about if Scarlet Spider can's speed tier is wrong or if Spider-Man can or not scale to the calcs proposed.

Impress said at one point that she would be checking if the calcs context are valid or not, and never commented on that again.
She proposed 4 possible solutions based on no argument of the OP and without providing any evidence for her claims that the calcs are too inconsistent, no anti feat whatsoever just argument of belief.

 

[FinePoint]

Anyways we are getting off track then.

Indeed.

In short, in regards to this thread, I'm saying that I don't think we currently have the tools required for me to make a decision on Marvel speed scaling that would make me happy.

If I'm forced to make a decision now then I think we should remain conservative, and ignore any feats that render a majority of other fights completely nonsensical.

 

[Tomfer]

M3X was right and this thread proves it.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

List of characrters that would scale to sub relativistic, 68 characters on this list, 10 characters with feats

Spoiler: Characters who have calcs

Ms. Marvel
Namor (Marvel Comics)
Super-Skrull
Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell)
Rogue (Marvel Comics)
Iron Man Armor Model 4
Iron Man Armor Model 8
Iron Man Armor Model 29
Wonder Man
Black Bolt

Spoiler: Characters who scale

Abomination
Anti-Man
Awesome Android
Bi-Beast
Blue Marvel
Champion of the Universe
Corvus Glaive
Count Nefaria
Doctor Doom
Fin Fang Foom
Genis-Vell
Graviton
Grey Gargoyle
Hank Pym (Marvel Comics)
Theodore Altman (Hulkling)
King Hyperion
Iron Lad
Korg
Lauri-Ell the Accuser
Red She-Hulk
Sersi
She-Hulk
Skaar
Sphinx
Supreme Intelligence (Marvel Comics)
Nova (Richard Rider)
Star
Tiger Shark
Vision (Jonas)
Ragnarok
Volstagg
Moon Knight
Mister Fantastic
Invisible Woman (Marvel Comics)
Super-Skrull
Human Torch
Invisible Woman (Marvel Comics)
The Thing (Marvel Comics)
Hulk (Marvel Comics)
Amadeus Cho
The Champion of the Universe
Mindless Ones (Marvel)
Kree (Marvel Comics)
Executioner (Marvel Comics)
Ronan the Accuser (Marvel Comics)
Red She-Hulk
Iron Man Armor Model 6
Iron Man Armor Model 13
Iron Man Armor Model 15
Iron Man Armor Model 16
Iron Man Armor Model 19
Iron Man Armor Model 20
Iron Man Armor Model 37
Iron Man Armor Model 38
Iron Man Armor Model 42
Iron Man Armor Model 50
Iron Man Armor Model 51
Iron Man Armor Model 54

 

[Rex_Eckles]

After much discussion with Armorchompy and Impress on Discord, they have persuaded me that an Unknown speed rating is a viable option for the profiles, and if there is no other way of doing this, an Unknown speed rating should be used.


HOWEVER, I firmly believe that a possibly rating is more beneficial to acknowledge the two camps of feats these Low Tiers perform and scale to. I.e. feats centered around projectile dodging versus feats centered around flying into the atmosphere. Both are consistently portrayed as feats of speed, and are demonstrated with not dissimilar consistency. I think it is a fair compromise, as it acknowledges the most prevalent interpretations of speed for these characters.

 

[Tomfer]

After much discussion with Armorchompy and Impress on Discord, they have persuaded me that an Unknown speed rating is a viable option for the profiles, and if there is no other way of doing this, an Unknown speed rating should be used.

So instead of using feats and calcs, we will lazily put unknown at everyone because no one wishes to fix the actual problem that is this dogshit, held by duct tape, scaling chain? All because we gotta protect Abomination scaling to Elektra for some reason. Oh yes, The Thing, famous Elektra/DD supporting character. Honestly, I'd rather keep everything as it is or put everyone back at MFTL, but unknown? That's reserved for characters with actual zero shows of feats.

My final take of this thread is: if there's about 3-4 calcs (or more), they're mathematically correct, OP gives the comic issue and context, and doesn't go against the character's story, thematic and previous shows of feats, it's good to go. The character's own shows of feats should surpass any need to protect a very shaky and poorly made scaling chain.

This one is the most telling. There’s an ongoing thread to upgrade characters like Captain Marvel to Sub-Relativistic or higher based on legitimate feats of flying to space and reacting at those speeds. It can’t pass. Not because the feats are bad, but because it would backscale to 9-Bs. Let that sink in. We’re rejecting decades of feats from dozens of characters because the street level scaling chain has to be protected. The chain has become more important than the actual evidence.

Let that sink in.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

So instead of using feats and calcs, we will lazily put unknown at everyone because no one wishes to fix the actual problem that is this dogshit, held by duct tape, scaling chain? All because we gotta protect Abomination scaling to Elektra for some reason. Oh yes, The Thing, famous Elektra/DD supporting character. Honestly, I'd rather keep everything as it is or put everyone back at MFTL, but unknown? That's reserved for characters with actual zero shows of feats.

My final take of this thread is: if there's about 3-4 calcs (or more), they're mathematically correct, OP gives the comic issue and context, and doesn't go against the character's story, thematic and previous shows of feats, it's good to go. The character's own shows of feats should surpass any need to protect a very shaky and poorly made scaling chain.


Let that sink in.

The more time passes the more I think M3X was right

 

[M3X_2.0]

There’s still time to fix this.

 

[Tomfer]

The more time passes the more I think M3X was right

He always was.

There’s still time to fix this.

And I'm more than willing to help.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

He always was.


And I'm more than willing to help.

What do you need?