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Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

VS Battles
Retired VSB Bureaucrat
15,614
7,054
So our current Starbound profiles have quite a lot of problems.

First of all, we have the extreme problem that every race and notable character in the game is "At least 5-A, likely 3-B, possibly High 3-A". This is because the Player kills The Rui at the end of the game, and The Cultivator died defeating and sealing the Ruin.

Hoo boy there is a ton wrong with this. The Cultivator is essentially God in the Starbound universe. It was a force that balanced the entire universe. In originally defeating the Ruin, it exhausted all of its energy and dissipated. Before dying, it left behind several artifacts, which when brought together, would open the way to the heart of the Ruin so it could be killed, for good. This is what the Player achieves at the end of the game. They do not do something the Cultivator itself could not do and just kill the Ruin, head on. They kill it by destroying the core of a barely awakened, weakened, and sealed Ruin. The Player is not anywhere remotely close to the Cultivator in power, nor are any of the universe's races.

Next there's the fact that the 5-A part of this rating comes from the Cultivator and Ruin being "far larger than Saturn-like planets". The only source for this whatsoever is an ancient illustratio, which we have no idea is literal or not. Though the Ruin is stated to be the size of a planet. Though since unspecified, this should be "At least 5-B".

The 3-B part of the rating is based on the challenge doors containing starry skies. However, to my knowledge, it is never stated that the Cultivator created the realms behind these doors. Everyone just says they lead to an "unknown dimension".

Then we have the fact that the High 3-A rating comes from the fact an ancient mural describes the Ancient Vault as "the infinite sanctuary". That's it. I should not need to go into detail as to why this is not remotely enough for High 3-A.

Finally, we have speed. Everyone and their mother is rated as Massively FTL+ for "reacting to teleportation beams. Not only are teleporters stated to move at the speed of light (if we want to go the route of using vague character statements for everything), but we also have the fact that this is what is used to say characters can react during teleportation. This is not a MFTL+ reaction feat. At all. To my knowledge, the best reaction feat we have is to actual lasers, and resulted in slightly above baseline FTL.

In short, there's a lot to fix.
 
The Cultivator hasn't shown any feats of being a truly god-like entity though. "Balance of the universe" isn't literal AFAIK. In fact, its only concrete actions are related to creating the Glitch and giving the Avians their technology. In term of sheer power, there is nothing that puts the Cultivator undeniably above everyone else. The artifacts themselves only served to open the way to the Ark.

There is nothing stating that the Ruin was much weakened in its fight. In fact, we don't even know if it was sealed. We only see it being BFR'd into another dimension (Namely, the Ark).

It's quite implied that the Cultivator did it. The fact that they are "unstable", and with a clear intent in mind with their creation implies that it isn't natural. And the idea of the cultists following the Cultivator to be stronger than it is ridiculous.

The teleports being lightspeed is so much bullshit, we shouldn't come anywhere near close to accepting it. It had FTL feats, it should be faster than things with FTL feats... Heck, even combat-used mechs can travel the circumference of a solar system in minutes. They are scaled to it not only via the statements but via dodging Dreadwing's teleports as well.
 
"The Cultivator hasn't shown any feats of being a truly god-like entity though. "Balance of the universe" isn't literal AFAIK."

The Cultivator hasn't shown any feats, though. It's dead by the start of the game. All it has are statements. The most we actually see it do is have part of its essence use the last of its power to revive the Player from death.

"In term of sheer power, there is nothing that puts the Cultivator undeniably above everyone else."

False. There's a clear reason only the Cultivator rose up against the Ruin. It would have no reason to do this alone if even the added help of one other race would let them curbstomp it. On top of this, the Cultivator defeating the Ruin took all of its power, and the Ruin was stated to be capable of wiping out all other life in the universe. Defeating it is not something any random race could accomplish. The Ancients, who were obscenely advanced compared to the modern races, also treat the Cultivator as a literal god compared to themselves. This isn't even taking into account that the Cultivator challenged the Ruin in its prime, and a weakened Ruin destroyed the Earth, which by this logic should host an entire civilization more powerful than the Cultivator.

"The artifacts themselves only served to open the way to the Ark."

Yes. They served as a key to a sealed Ruin so that the races of the universe could finish what the Cultivator started. It's not the Cultivator saying "Well lads I ******* lost. Why don't you all go have a crack at killing this thing?". The killing of the Ruin is only accomplished because of the Cultivator's original battle.

"There is nothing stating that the Ruin was much weakened in its fight. In fact, we don't even know if it was sealed."

Also false. The very opening of the game says the Cultivator sealed it away. It's almost immediately after stated that the defenses are crumbling, and the Ruin must be reached and destroyed before it is awakened and freed. It is clearly not at the same level as when it fought the Cultivator, unless we assume all of the Cultivator's power did literally nothing to the Ruin. Also notice how the Ruin isn't even fully awakened. Asra states that when the Ruin awakens, it will cleanse the universe of all life but humans. Do you genuinely think he would believe this if a single human barely more powerful than himself could kill the Ruin at full potential?

"It's quite implied that the Cultivator did it."

Sources needed for the Cultivator being implied to have created these realms themselves.

"The teleports being lightspeed is so much bullshit, we shouldn't come anywhere near close to accepting it."

And yet the same statements saying the teleporters are lightspeed are used to say characters can react at MFTL+ speeds.

"They are scaled to it not only via the statements but via dodging Dreadwing's teleports as well."

Nobody dodges Dreadwing teleporting. Dreadwing teleports, reappears, and then attempts to slam you.

Much of this is entirely out of context.
 
My point is that, the Cultivator isn't almighty like Kluex is. Its biggest influences are technologic gifts and starting up life. And again, the Cultivator was only alive early in the universe's history, when all the civilizations had so little technology, they saw someone like the Cultivator as a god. Honestly, it isn't that far fetched to think that millions of years of technological progress from races gifted by the Cultivator would reach anywhere near its level in term of raw power.

It's less about statements and more about logical conclusion. Unnatural pocket dimensions, which are unstable and disappears after one use and have been built to be a challenge. It is unlikely to be natural. They are either created by the "cult" of the Cultivator (Which shouldn't be stronger than it by any means) or by the Cultivator themselves. Same for the Vaults.

There are more statements about them being able to perceive the travel than of the beam being lightspeed. Besides, the latter could very well be slang or otherwise rather than the factual speed. It FEELS like lightspeed, it isn't necessarily at such speed.

You misunderstood me. Dreadwing uses teleportation beams, similar in purpose and appearance to the ones used in the game, to summons troops. These can be dodged.
 
"My point is that, the Cultivator isn't almighty like Kluex is. Its biggest influences are technologic gifts and starting up life. And again, the Cultivator was only alive early in the universe's history, when all the civilizations had so little technology, they saw someone like the Cultivator as a god. Honestly, it isn't that far fetched to think that millions of years of technological progress from races gifted by the Cultivator would reach anywhere near its level in term of raw power."

The Ancients were around when the Cultivator was. They were just as advanced, if not more so, than all current races, as nobody can understand how their tech works. They viewed the Cultivator as a god. No modern races are reaching the Cultivator's level.

"It's less about statements and more about logical conclusion. Unnatural pocket dimensions, which are unstable and disappears after one use and have been built to be a challenge. It is unlikely to be natural. They are either created by the "cult" of the Cultivator (Which shouldn't be stronger than it by any means) or by the Cultivator themselves. Same for the Vaults."

I meant source for the creation of the pocket dimensions. Nobody knows where the doors lead, and there is nothing saying the Cultivator nor the Ancients created the realms. Making a portal to another universe does not suggest you created said universe.

"There are more statements about them being able to perceive the travel than of the beam being lightspeed. Besides, the latter could very well be slang or otherwise rather than the factual speed. It FEELS like lightspeed, it isn't necessarily at such speed."

But they don't. It's not like they're inside a vehicle. They're in the middle of being teleported. They become immaterial. None of this is natural reactions influencing the outside world while moving along the beam. Also, if we're just going to say the lightspeed statement isn't literal, there is no need to take every other statement literally.

"You misunderstood me. Dreadwing uses teleportation beams, similar in purpose and appearance to the ones used in the game, to summons troops. These can be dodged."

Proof that these are anywhere as fast as the actual teleporter locations elsewhere? Because not only do they move significantly slower, Dreadwing has an actual move in which it teleports (called 'Teleport'), which is instantaneous compared to said beams. At best one could assume said beams were actual light.
 
The main problem here seems to be if the Teleportation is literal teleportation or an accelerated mode of transportation. It is either one or the other.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I don't know much about the game, but I am leaning more towards Saikou here, except on the infinite part.
This is likely a case in which it is better to know about the game itself, as I didn't see the problems with the ratings from a cursory glance until I played through it.

Of course, unless we are going with the conclusion that it is completely logical for modern civilizations to completely dwarf the power of an ancient civilization they can't even understand...and the thing said civilization treated as a literal god.

Which doesn't make any sense in or out of context.
 
Yet the ancients failed to do anything against the Ruin even as it was sealed far earlier than how it is today. If we take your theory that the Ruin is weaker now because of the seal, it would have been an effortless kill for the Ancients.

Creating a portal to a universe can't be considered a feat. But if said universe's only purpose is hosting a challenge, and disappears instantly after its purpose is done, then we have more reasons to think that the Cultivator or the Ancients had something to do with their existence.

Like I said, the light speed statement can be considered slang or non-literal, whereas the races being aware of the travel can't. They wouldn't comment on it if it didn't happen.

There are no reasons why the most feared bounty hunter in the universe would use technology far inferior to what the everyday Joe with a bit of money can get. The "teleport" used by Dreadwing's ship is visually and functionally far different than the Beaming used everywhere else in the game.
 
"Creating a portal to a universe can't be considered a feat. But if said universe's only purpose is hosting a challenge, and disappears instantly after its purpose is done, then we have more reasons to think that the Cultivator or the Ancients had something to do with their existence."

If this is true, then I think it is evident that it was created by someone or something.
 
"Yet the ancients failed to do anything against the Ruin even as it was sealed far earlier than how it is today. If we take your theory that the Ruin is weaker now because of the seal, it would have been an effortless kill for the Ancients."

Nope. The Ancients died around the time of the Ruin and the Cultivator's battle, almost certainly by the Ruin's hand.

"We advanced as we were designed, we reached the great kind one. It warned us of the final plague, the threat to all that thrive. [...] We are destined to not remain, as is the great kind one. Its legacy will be its remnants and ours shall be our temples."

"Creating a portal to a universe can't be considered a feat. But if said universe's only purpose is hosting a challenge, and disappears instantly after its purpose is done, then we have more reasons to think that the Cultivator or the Ancients had something to do with their existence."

And where does it say the universe ceases to exist, or that the challenge is the only thing in the universe? Claims like this need actual sources.

"Like I said, the light speed statement can be considered slang or non-literal, whereas the races being aware of the travel can't. They wouldn't comment on it if it didn't happen."

I still have no idea how you're turning "They're aware they're being teleported" into "Everyone has MFTL+ reactions". They say nothing other than they feel something during teleporting. That is not a MFTL+ reaction feat.

"There are no reasons why the most feared bounty hunter in the universe would use technology far inferior to what the everyday Joe with a bit of money can get. The "teleport" used by Dreadwing's ship is visually and functionally far different than the Beaming used everywhere else in the game."

Presumably because it's not at all being used for the same purpose. Dreadwing isn't sending down troops from orbit or another planet. He's materializing soldiers several meters below his ship's current position, through beams visibly much, much slower than those seen travelling great distances.
 
I think that Azathoth seems to make sense.
 
Don't know if this helps at all, but in a multiplayer game, players can totally perceive teleportation beams from other players, and if quick enough, react to them accordingly.

I've played dozens of hours worth of Starbound, but tbh, I never pay attention to feats or details, so I may not be of much help.
 
I would also appreciate further community input.
 
As a recap:

  • High 3-A has been debunked and will be removed from all profiles
  • Scaling is still being discussed. At this point, nobody has actually brought any proof of all races scaling to the Cultivator and the Ruin, while I have posted things suggesting the exact opposite.
  • No evidence has been provided for the 3-B stats and reasoning on the pages, either.
  • Nobody has really discussed the point about changing the 5-A to "At least 5-B".
  • Speed is still being discussed.
It is important that this is resolved, as right now, the profiles may as well not even be there, as they are unusable for accurate measurement in their current state.
 
Well I don't know much about starbound but Azathoth's points seem to make sense so I agree with what he says.
 
Well, I don't think it is entirely cut and dry. There's a lot of things from Saikou point of view that sound much more logical, honestly.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Well, I don't think it is entirely cut and dry. There's a lot of things from Saikou point of view that sound much more logical, honestly.
The scaling is insanely cut and dry. The current scaling is that every member of every race with strong enough weapons scales to a universal threat who wiped out a deity and the race that worshipped it, who were already far more advanced than modern races.

The reasoning for this is that a single individual managed to kill a weakened, sealed, not fully awake version of said universal threat by destroying its core.

There is no verse where something like this would be allowed.

Applying similar logic to another verse goes something like this:

  • Hector Rex defeated An'ggrath the Unbound. The fact that An'ggrath weakened and that Hector knew his true name are irrelevant, because Hector still beat him.
  • This means Hector Rex is Solar System level.
  • Hector Rex is an Inquisitor, and is a human.
  • All humans with powerful enough melee weapons are thus Solar System level.
  • Other races are comparable to or, in some cases, stronger than humans.
  • The other races with strong enough melee weapons are also Solar System level.
  • Furthermore, Hector Rex was a psyker and beat An'ggrath with a force sword.
  • This applies to all Grey Knights. All Grey Knights are also Solar System level.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
According to what Saikou said, what you are saying isn't exactly true.
And has he posted proof of this? Because I have supplied things backing up what I am saying, while the only other thing that seems to be argued against using actual evidence is the speed feats.
 
Screw it. I'll do it, right now.

  • Quote from the Ancients, a super advanced race, about how the Ruin killed them and the Cultivator, who they revered and viewed as a deity.
"We advanced as we were designed,

we reached the great kind one.

It warned us of the final plague

the threat to all that thrive.

The great one has a plan

a door of keys for the chosen,

but we were builders not heroes.

In the event that the plan failed

we carved the infinite sanctuary

to salvage what little life we could.

We are destined to not remain

as is the great kind one.

Its legacy will be its remnants

and ours shall be our temples."

  • Sealed, weakened Ruin wipes out humanity, who are currently scaled to...the Ruin.
https://youtu.be/NnYVaC2KCSk?t=1m24s

  • It is urgent to get to the Ruin before the defenses that sealed it away fully crumble.
https://youtu.be/NnYVaC2KCSk?t=3m54s

  • Asra Nox, who competed with the player literally seconds earlier, states that the Ruin isn't fully awakened, and that when it wakes, it will kill everything in the universe but humans.
https://youtu.be/lftnhamd3vo?t=3m2s

  • Player kills the Ruin by essentially punching a sealed, weakened, confirmed-moments-ago-to-not-be-fully-awake Ruin in the heart.
https://youtu.be/lftnhamd3vo?t=7m51s

  • The player character even dies to the planetary explosion caused by the Ruin's death. They are then revived by a mere infinitesimal fragment of the Cultivator's essence.
https://youtu.be/g6iZhM83LZ0?t=2m9s

You don't have to believe I'm telling the truth or whatever, but you can check links I posted, because I actually want to back up what I argue.
 
Well, I think that Azathoth can apply his suggested changes if he wishes.
 
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