Loop Hero General Discussion

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I'm not seeing any evidence that this unchanging nature has the necessary qualities for Acausality Type 5, their is no feats or statements that connect this unchangingness to the essential properties of Acausality Type 5. Someone who is outside causality to the point nothing can effect them.

I literally have showed you the fact that the void by itself lacks any concept of change, with the bosses, such as Lich, being stated to be a independent existence, with his nature being completly outside the norms of the universe

Glass in his Acausality Type 5 checklist thread already accepted it as Type 5
I dont understand what is so hard to get

 

[Everything12]

And what exactly does being an 'independent existence' entail.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

An independent existence, independent of the rest of the existence, being capable to live in a void that lacks everything. And thats far from the main point here

I am dead. The question of who I am is now moot. Sadness and sorrow. Good: this means I was astute enough to consider emotions in the imitation. My decisions wouldn’t be exactly "mine" without them. No more reason to keep the flesh preserved: that would be impractical. The skeleton shall suffice. One could think my current independent existence as an array of spells is the final point. But I won’t make that mistake. Anything that doesn’t evolve is doomed for oblivion. Even without my original, I have much room for improvement.

 

[Agnaa]

Spoiler

Such as?

Prime Matter/Astral Plane/Void/Dark Slime being transdual. Watcher's nonexistence being relevant to it.

EDIT: Also disagree with Prime Matter's nonexistence being relevant to it, given that it's not an enemy that can stay around outside of battles, and hence, it can't be removed with Oblivion.

That wouldnt make much sense, since Time Shard, that its stated to be part of the time and space, isnt put as Astral

Time Shard is 1/10th of an Astral Orb tho?

She is the Godness of probability, with every probability being part of her

I don't remember anything about them literally being inside her, and your quotes don't substantiate that.

Tome isnt just a book, no. Its the legacy of a mage that is born after the death, as you can see in "Legacy" power that mages have. The logic of magic also being the idea of knowledge itself is supported by the Vampire Mage saying that magic is knowledge, but with another name

Yeah, because the mage writes the spells they know into the Tome, which can then invoke those spells simply by turning the pages.

I don't think that turn of phrase is literal; magic is knowledge in that magic has to be learned, and can give you knowledge about the world and how to best achieve your plans. It doesn't mean that invoking it is AE/information manip.

No, I really don't think so. If some article says something about Watcher Mages but doesnt say the same for normal Watchers, we should assume that its thanks to the magic and not just their normal nature. One of the lore texts clearly states that the features that Watcher Mages are making are thanks to magic, and I don't think we can assume that just one of the texts would randomly be talking about their magical ability and all the others just about their physiology

I just strongly disagree. I don't think that ordinary Watchers would be unable to save a rabbit from a pack of wolves. And I seriously think that their ability to ignore the effects of existence is a normal Watcher power, given their statements of being able to leave buildings without doors or windows.

Death was detached from creation and now is like a orb

Just like what happened with the concept of change

I think it's impossible for those to mean that the rest of existence now lacks those things. Given that multiple of them exist, not just substantiated by gameplay, but by them being talked about in terms of plurals. I think they just contain an amount of death/change/etc. in a form that's applicable to every being. And also because change clearly still occurs.

With Death also being stated by Alpha/Omega as being a eternal movement for the creation

I don't think that's what that statement's saying. But I also can't find the rest of it from a quick glance. I just think from plainly reading it, that "and so was born the deathly piece that every part of existence craves, thus creating the eternal movement from the beginning to the end" means anything special regarding the nature of "death" within the series.

EDIT: Just found the full context of that statement; it's not about death at all, it's about the peace that the constant change in the universe wrought. "Deathly" is just an adjective, probably to describe how suffocating it was.

And then there's the statement that to reach the ability to revive, one need to defeat Death itself

That's flowery wording that's common among fiction (and kind of within non-fiction too), if you can't die then you have overcome Death. That doesn't mean it's a "concept that runs the creation", or that High-Godly resurrection/healing is justified.

Lich was unchangeable after having removed all aspects of the world

And again, this isnt a main criteria

No clue what you're talking about here, you just linked a 15 minute video that, as far as I remember, doesn't include evidence of that.

And that's wrong, being unchangeable by conventional means is the defining criteria of type 5 acausality. The Hero couldn't get that; he's changed by everything under the sun.

And what exactly does being an 'independent existence' entail.

Nothing much. The Hero, Omega's disciples, and Omega himself all get changed by a bunch of things.

An independent existence, independent of the rest of the existence, being capable to live in a void that lacks time, space, information, laws, temperature, concepts, and so on. And thats far from the main point here

It clearly doesn't actually lack those things. Time passes, characters move from location to location explicitly, some things are explicitly stated to be warm, etc.

Unless the void's just the stuff that's erased, but in that case, no-one really seems to be able to reside in that, besides maybe Omega and maybe maybe Omicron.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Nothing much. The Hero, Omega's disciples, and Omega himself all get changed by a bunch of things.

Legit loled here, but yes. Seems that aca type 5 doesn't apply here.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Damn serlock
shut up

Anyway, gonna respond everything in a bit

 

[Agnaa]

It might be best to leave the spoilered-stuff for later tbh.

Also gonna ping @Theglassman12 since their eval was bring brought up.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Damn serlock
shut up

Such love for me!

 

[Theglassman12]

Glass in his Acausality Type 5 checklist thread already accepted it as Type 5. I dont understand what is so hard to get

Umm, I never said it's solid type 5, I said it might be type 5 because some of the context and explanations were a bit hard to follow, but I don't know the full context to the feat so I can't really comment on it.

 

[Agnaa]

The main thrust of the story is the creator god deciding to destroy everything, gradually erasing things from existence.

But due to his own sentimentality, and another god's manipulation of probability, a hero is able to gradually reverse that, by "remembering" things, returning them to normal.

From one resource's encyclopedia entry, we learn that this process of remembering things occasionally involves them changing when the hero isn't looking, leaving him with that resource. We learn from the small version of that resource that it can be used to induce change, caterpillars into butterflies, seeds into sprouts, or water into steam. The first scan linked here says that "The world's ability to change and transform was carefully detached from its existence, put into an orb, and destroyed."

King is arguing for this to be Acausality Type 5, presumably at least for the parts of the world that are erased.

I'm not so sure since this, and other items like it, explicitly come in multiples, so it sounds very strange for the entire world's causality to be enshrined in one orb. Rather, it seems like it represents and can invoke a part of it. And since nothing really indicates that change is impossible due to the absence of it.

 

[Theglassman12]

The whole “world gets erased” argument being an argument for type 5 was the part that confused me since it was pushing for the god to basically be above change but not much is elaborated on said god being above change as a result of the world being nuked. Hence why I said it might be type 5 but still unsure.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah there isn't really anything elaborating on that.

And there's a lotta stuff that I'd consider anti-feats but some might consider just "being able to become part of causality" or "other characters being able to bypass acausality".

That god turned himself into a human which made him compassionate and sentimental. He let the matter which would normally be unable to pierce him due to being made by him, pierce him, killing him. This caused him to be reborn into a god focusing on destruction. After he was then unwittingly killed by the hero, he began to be reborn again, a process that will take millennia.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Prime Matter/Astral Plane/Void/Dark Slime being transdual.

Well

A creature beyond all comprehension. There are no words to fully describe it - and no words to describe it even partially. Both nothing and everything. Simultaneously.

Its nothing = -1
Its everythinhg = 1
Its both simultaneously = 0
Nothing said really describe it = x
And yet everything said can't even partially describe it = Y

Characters existing in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them exist beyond the classical states of contradiction-allowing logic, instead operating on a many-valued logic system with at least five truth values. Such characters occupy a state where they are neither A, nor not A, nor both A and not A, nor neither A nor not A, instead existing in a state one can't describe using simple combinations of A and not A. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against all attacks and haxes that scale to fewer logical states than the user.

It seems to qualify

Watcher's nonexistence being relevant to it.

Mage Watchers can live without their existence tho, but they cant do anything when deleted from creation and turned into void

Time Shard is 1/10th of an Astral Orb tho?

Yes, ten Time Shard can reach a infinitesimal fraction of the Astral Plane. I don't see what this change. Not even Prime Matter can reach the Astral Plane, who is everything, nothing, both and yet none of the previous descriptions, and thus most likely being part of the dualitys created by Alpha/Omega, aka aspects such as past and future. Prime Matter being part of the continuum of the universe is also supported by the fact that by killing it, you gain a Time Shard, the laws of space and time.

But Omega’s work has just began. There will be no more sorrow. And no more happiness. No more mercy nor compassion, no offense nor gratitude, no past and no future. Nothing good will be left, but nothing bad will be left either.

Not everything astral is temporal nor everything temporal is astral. Just look at Ghosts, none is temporal, or at Watchers, who are entities that control the history and time, they arent astral.

I don't remember anything about them literally being inside her, and your quotes don't substantiate that.

She is the very godness of probability. Every outcome is from her being, every reality. Thats pretty blatant

Yeah, because the mage writes the spells they know into the Tome, which can then invoke those spells simply by turning the pages.

This doesnt matter much. Tome does have its own mind and conscience. They even read the reader and attack Hero by their own will without anyone controling them

I don't think that turn of phrase is literal; magic is knowledge in that magic has to be learned, and can give you knowledge about the world and how to best achieve your plans. It doesn't mean that invoking it is AE/information manip.

Okay, so lets see

1- Tome is described as knowledge itself, what is supported with it being used by a "abstract entity", a Watcher

Is it a watcher armed with knowledge, or is it knowledge that armed itself with the watcher? Whichever it might be, this creature sees something wrong with your existence - and it is trying very hard to rectify this before it’s too late.

2 - Then we have the Vampire Mage saying that magic is knowledge itself again and that it can be used to go through path of the laws of the universe

Very important, I agree. Knowledge can help you find a path through the laws of the universe. That's what we call magic. I can clearly see your place in this chaos. Do you know why everyone around you is trying so hard to kill you ?

3- And when we kill any mage or magic thing we can get a Time Shard, where is explained that the laws of the universe are usually based on space and time

The laws of this world are usually based on space and time. But the space is shattered. And so is time, as you can see.

4 - Finally, high level mages, such as a Watcher Mage, are capable to decide what rules apply to their being

When my blade passed through his body without dealing any harm, the dreadful realization crossed my mind: he was not a part of our world.
He forces himself to conform to the common rules - he is injured because there are external conditions for that, and feels pain because he agreed to it.
The being could easily ignore any effects of existence, but then the existence would also ignore his attempts to intervene.
That’s why my attack didn’t do him any damage - the watcher simply didn’t see me sneaking up.

IS EVERYTHING CONNECTED, DONT YOU SEE IT, AGNAA? I AINT INSANE. MAGIC S THE VERY IDEIA OF KNOWLEDGE AND CAN BE USED TO CONTROL THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE

I don't think that ordinary Watchers would be unable to save a rabbit from a pack of wolves. And I seriously think that their ability to ignore the effects of existence is a normal Watcher power, given their statements of being able to leave buildings without doors or windows.

The rabbit thing is a completly different context tho

The tower thing isn't relevant. Watchers by itself are wierd and we barely know about what they are capable. A Watcher nature is intangible, as we can see with normal things not being capable to interact with them due to the history manipulation, but that doesn't mean that they are naturally outside the common rules without magic. If so, it wouldnt make sense put such fundamental information about their physiology solely in the article about Watcher Mages

I think it's impossible for those to mean that the rest of existence now lacks those things. Given that multiple of them exist, not just substantiated by gameplay, but by them being talked about in terms of plurals. I think they just contain an amount of death/change/etc. in a form that's applicable to every being. And also because change clearly still occurs.

Uh, wat
No, man, What the hell is this. When everything turned into void these concepts where deleted from the existence. Thats baltant by the descritpion of the orbs. We get these orbs by killing creatures. We "remove their aspect", and when we are back to the camp, where everything is forgotten again and turned into void, these substances that are inside these orbs are nothing but a fragment of what the reality once was. The void lacks everything, but these small pieces of land that exist due to the memory of the Hero have concepts, but thats not something that is gonna last for too long

Just found the full context of that statement; it's not about death at all, it's about the peace that the constant change in the universe wrought. "Deathly" is just an adjective, probably to describe how suffocating it was.

Uh, disagree

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I'm not so sure since this, and other items like it, explicitly come in multiples, so it sounds very strange for the entire world's causality to be enshrined in one orb. Rather, it seems like it represents and can invoke a part of it. And since nothing really indicates that change is impossible due to the absence of it.

Change can happen inside the lands that reside in the void, since these are part of the Hero's memory, but thats not something that apply to things from the void or outside these lands.

Also

Unless the void's just the stuff that's erased, but in that case, no-one really seems to be able to reside in that, besides maybe Omega and maybe maybe Omicron.

Yes, thats WHAT IM SAYING. No one except some cosmic entitys and the void is gonna scale. I never said anything about the Hero

 

[Agnaa]

Well

Its nothing = -1
Its everythinhg = 1
Its both simultaneously = 0
Nothing said really describe it = x
And yet everything said can't even partially describe it = Y

It seems to qualify

No, this is wrong on multiple levels.

First of all, being nothing and everything isn't Transduality, it's Nonexistent Physiology. The only quality that's concretely established as anomalous is their existence.

Secondly, "there are no words to describe it" isn't a distinct state, it's just an elaboration on how it is both nothing and everything.

Thirdly, "everything said can't even partially describe it" isn't a distinct state, and isn't something that was said.

This would just be NEP Type 2.

Mage Watchers can live without their existence tho, but they cant do anything when deleted from creation and turned into void

From what we've seen, them participating in reality makes them vulnerable to alterations from reality. Plus, they don't actually wander around on tiles, so we can never see whether Oblivion works on them or not.

Yes, ten Time Shard can reach a infinitesimal fraction of the Astral Plane. I don't see what this change.

You said that the Astral Plane can't be another term for space-time because the Time Shard is space-time but isn't Astral, but that's not really accurate, since the Time Shard is 1/10th of an Astral Orb, which is demonstrably part of the Astral Plane, so that reason is invalid.

Not even Prime Matter can reach the Astral Plane

Where did you get this from?

who is everything, nothing, both and yet none of the previous descriptions, and thus most likely being part of the dualitys created by Alpha/Omega

Why do you believe that Alpha/Omega created those dualities? Tons of Gods exist outside of his and Yota's knowledge, they could easily be the ones administering those.

aka aspects such as past and future. Prime Matter being part of the continuum of the universe is also supported by the fact that by killing it, you gain a Time Shard, the laws of space and time.

I'd expect that Prime Matter would be part of that universe, but that doesn't establish that the Astral Plane is some transcendent realm above that.

Not everything astral is temporal nor everything temporal is astral. Just look at Ghosts, none is temporal, or at Watchers, who are entities that control the history and time, they arent astral.

I don't get the point you're trying to make here. I don't think there are "temporal" or "astral" types, just Cosmic. And both Prime Matter and Watchers are Cosmic, so they drop Time shards, which compose Astral Orbs.

She is the very godness of probability. Every outcome is from her being, every reality. Thats pretty blatant

She's the goddess of them, that doesn't mean they're literally physically a part of her. And given that there's different Omegas for every timeline, I wouldn't be surprised if there were other Yotas too. Especially given how those probabilities almost certainly had Yotas helping, yet she remained in human form for that time, limiting the scope of her powers.

This doesnt matter much. Tome does have its own mind and conscience. They even read the reader and attack Hero by their own will without anyone controling them

Sure, they can have their own mind and conscience, but that doesn't provide sufficient evidence for AE Type 1.

Okay, so lets see

1- Tome is described as knowledge itself, what is supported with it being used by a "abstract entity", a Watcher

As I said, I think that's a turn of phrase for knowledge of magic driving the user to do weird shit, as is concretely established.

2 - Then we have the Vampire Mage saying that magic is knowledge itself again and that it can be used to go through path of the laws of the universe

Yeah, knowledge of magic can help you **** with the laws of the universe. That's not sufficient for AE Type 1.

3- And when we kill any mage or magic thing we can get a Time Shard, where is explained that the laws of the universe are usually based on space and time

Yeah, because they can **** with the universe. That's not sufficient for AE Type 1.

4 - Finally, high level mages, such as a Watcher Mage, are capable to decide what rules apply to their being

As I've said, i believe that applies to ordinary Watchers as well. They appear to be beings outside of time, that try to make sure that events go as they should, and which can leave buildings lacking doors or windows. I believe that Watcher Mages simply decide to focus their powers in different areas, due to magic giving them knowledge which makes them believe that they can fix the world.

IS EVERYTHING CONNECTED, DONT YOU SEE IT, AGNAA? I AINT INSANE. MAGIC S THE VERY IDEIA OF KNOWLEDGE AND CAN BE USED TO CONTROL THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE

It can be used to control the laws of the universe, but there isn't evidence sufficient for AE Type 1.

The rabbit thing is a completly different context tho

The tower thing isn't relevant. Watchers by itself are wierd and we barely know about what they are capable. A Watcher nature is intangible, as we can see with normal things not being capable to interact with them due to the history manipulation, but that doesn't mean that they are naturally outside the common rules without magic. If so, it wouldnt make sense put such fundamental information about their physiology solely in the article about Watcher Mages

And I don't think they do; there's hints about it in the article for the Temporal Beacon, and the reason for them mostly choosing to be tangible in the Watcher Mages article makes sense for ordinary Watchers too. I think they just paced it that way because:

1. They wanted 3 articles of lore for almost all creatures.
2. It makes more sense for a weirdo watcher to be caught in a situation like that.

Uh, wat
No, man, What the hell is this. When everything turned into void these concepts where deleted from the existence. Thats baltant by the descritpion of the orbs. We get these orbs by killing creatures. We "remove their aspect", and when we are back to the camp, where everything is forgotten again and turned into void, these substances that are inside these orbs are nothing but a fragment of what the reality once was. The void lacks everything, but these small pieces of land that exist due to the memory of the Hero have concepts, but thats not something that is gonna last for too long

Oh, so you're not arguing that those concepts weren't removed for all of the universe, just the erased areas? Okay, I can see that making sense. But I'd have to double-check the statements we get about common monsters' existence in those areas, and how the other survivors moved through it.

Change can happen inside the lands that reside in the void, since these are part of the Hero's memory, but thats not something that apply to things from the void or outside these lands.

Yes, thats WHAT IM SAYING. No one except some cosmic entitys and the void is gonna scale. I never said anything about the Hero

Yeah okay cool.

I still don't think that justifies High-Godly Resurrection/Healing for the Lich. Closest thing to the Lich having any kind of Resurrection/Healing is the Omicron's Technique trait, which is too vague in operation to really apply imo. Even that would only be, like, Low-Mid. The only lore explanation we get for the Lich having something like that is his self-defense system, of creating infinitely many copies of himself upon death. Which is really sick, but not Resurrection/Healing, just Creation, especially since they're termed "afterimages".

But if we can't come to an agreement to this sorta thing, we can just make a CRT over whichever parts are contentious.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

Updated the blog again. Filled out more boss cutscene stuff.

I'm surprised how explicit and consistent all the stuff about Omega helping the Hero was. Now I'm just wondering how we should index that sort of thing.

I'm personally leaning towards Power Nullification/Statistics Reduction for Omega. Since it sounds like he was preventing the Hunter from exercising his full strength, rather than amping up the Hero. This could also be argued as working on himself, when he let himself be killed by the Hero's ancestor, and when he gave the Hero a chance to kill him.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

JJK and Lies of P made me forgot about this
Ima respond everything a bit

I'm personally leaning towards Power Nullification/Statistics Reduction for Omega. Since it sounds like he was preventing the Hunter from exercising his full strength, rather than amping up the Hero. This could also be argued as working on himself, when he let himself be killed by the Hero's ancestor, and when he gave the Hero a chance to kill him.

Well, Hero was stated several time as being just a normal human with nothing special. Everthing that he have done in the game was thanks to outside influence, but idk if its from Omega. At this point of the game it could be just a foreshadowing of Yota's power. However, he can only defeat Omega via, well, emotional damage, where he allow himself to be defeated.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Lies of P

That was the ******* shit. Please bump it's general discussion to maybe evaluate the verse.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Im still playing the game. Put the verse here is the last thing that I will do

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Im still playing the game. Put the verse here is the last thing that I will do

Why??? Also want some tips?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Why???

Because I want to enjoy the game without thinking about vsdebate

Also want some tips?

No
Thats for cowards

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Because I want to enjoy the game without thinking about vsdebate

No
Thats for cowards

You will come to regret some decisions. Alas my offer won't be there.

 

[Agnaa]

Well, Hero was stated several time as being just a normal human with nothing special. Everthing that he have done in the game was thanks to outside influence, but idk if its from Omega. At this point of the game it could be just a foreshadowing of Yota's power. However, he can only defeat Omega via, well, emotional damage, where he allow himself to be defeated.

Yeah it seems like it was a bit of both. Omega nerfed everyone to give the Hero a tiny chance, and Yota made that tiny chance a very good chance, although still not guaranteed.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

You will come to regret some decisions. Alas my offer won't be there.

Meh, im almost in the end of the game already
Just ima complete 100% before anything

Yeah it seems like it was a bit of both. Omega nerfed everyone to give the Hero a tiny chance, and Yota made that tiny chance a very good chance, although still not guaranteed.

Yeah, this seems fine
But I wonder how Hero's profile is gonna look like

 

[Agnaa]

Currently, I think it'll be like 9-B physically, 7-B with Creation/Oblivion, with a bunch of abilities due to the different class' equipment and perks. And a note to say "Yeah he defeated Omega and his acolytes, but he needed help."

He'd probably also have some non-combat-applicable Acausality Type 3, based on the whole "traveling to other doomed possibilities to save them" thing.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Omg no one told me we have a discussion thread for PEAK.

Hype to see this game getting profiles.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Omg no one told me we have a discussion thread for PEAK.

Hype to see this game getting profiles.

Νο

Oh I love indie game profiles. Though I hate game profiles in general.

 

[Agnaa]

Added another big chunk to the blog. Finished the main story cutscenes, and now halfway through the cutscenes for buildings/common enemies/etc done with all of the cutscenes, and starting on the tooltips.

Given King's interest in the topic, I've started building sections for the darkness/void/erasure that the Lich and Omega create, for magic, and for the astral plane. So far the first is the only one with any real meat, but I don't wanna start making calls even with that. A lot of the evidence pointing towards it being potent comes from resource tooltips/encyclopedia entries, which I'm still a few days of updates away from tackling.

In other news, DT told me why the "Tau escaping a black hole" calc was invalid, so I'm retracting it. And I'd like ideas on (or people calling calc members for) calculating this feat; the Hunter turning his home planet into a black hole. Should at least be 5-A, but I wouldn't be surprised if it got well into tier 4.

 

[Agnaa]

So I've learned that this game has some secret bosses....

Spoiler

Two of them seem pretty joke-y, but would end up with some unique profiles, if they are even indexable.

But one of them has some possibly plot relevant statements, and would absolutely make for one hell of a team profile.

This one's the easiest to summon, hardest to beat, but still beatable with some really good strats.

I should get the three-plus victories needed to see all of their dialogue soon enough.

And after that, I can finally get back to chucking feats in the blog.

 

[Agnaa]

Finally some ******* feats!

After a few hours, I've gone through a dozen monster encyclopedia entries, and added info from them to the blog.

Notably, that info has given common monsters a ton of feats placing them around 9-C. At this point, I find it hard to believe another tier could outweigh the 6 anti-feats indicating they can't go higher, and the 9 feats they have on that tier, so barring a miracle, that's probably where they'll end up.

 

[Agnaa]

Another day, some more feats. A surprising amount of 9-B ones, but I still think 9-C's more consistent. But man, is it gonna be painful to nail that down to a specific number.

Indexing each monster based on its own feats may make that a bit easier, but I'm not fully sure due to the scaling to the hero.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

How is it going? How is the verse turning out?

 

[Agnaa]

I don't really know how to answer that.

If you mean in terms of how far am I through processing the info, I'd say I'm a majority of the way through, but there's still a fair bit left.

If you mean in terms of how strong it is, most characters don't go past a few abilities, and they're only sometimes noticeably impactful in a fight. We're not working on a D&D here.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Is the peak still mftl and ss level?

 

[Agnaa]

Is the peak still mftl and ss level?

Either 4-B or 3-B. Probably 3-B actually.

But it is liable to move up, since I haven't actually gotten to the bosses' encyclopedia entries yet.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Either 4-B or 3-B. Probably 3-B actually.

But it is liable to move up, since I haven't actually gotten to the bosses' encyclopedia entries yet.

OH, oh damn it's quite powerful in the end.

 

[Agnaa]

That wouldn't scale to many. Most would be a lot lower.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

What rating do you think the Hero has, based on your research

 

[Agnaa]

Like, 9-B. His own feats/anti-feats land around there, and it puts him at the peak of the consistent end of the common monsters.

Scaling to the bosses is wack, since there's almost a dozen statements going "Yeah there's no way the Hero's strong enough to fight those bosses on his own, Alpha/Omega's just weakening them."

One could argue we should treat it as something we'd apply to the Hero in a fight; if we do, his opponents get nerfed down from 3-B/MFTL to his level. But I think that'd be kinda wack.

EDIT: He still would get, like, high tier 8 or low tier 7 creation/EE with cards. So if you give him Oblivion he could instanuke any smaller-than-mountain-sized characters without resistance.