• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

LoL skins scaling problems

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ricsi-viragosi

Ricsi-viragosi

VS Battles
Retired
26,160
3,653
So, born out of Star Guardian characters being rated Low 2-C by virtue of being empowered by something that created light, which everyone agreed on to change, we found ourselves disagreeing on scaling.

Specifically, scaling Zoe to her canon self. Something akin to this came up in a discussion about weather Vel'Koz's Battlecast version has the abilities of it's OG self.

So, I'll outline my problems here, but I will give a spoiler here: My main problem is lack of proof. Not in general, but if there is proof for scaling all AU versions then they were not really bought forward despite multiple requests.


Different AU's, different backstories, mentalities, etc.

There are some skins that are inherently tied to or related to the originals (like Battlecast, where the machines are supposed to be better versions of the characters).

However, others, like Star Guardian, have the characters completely changed. Zoe goes from the embodiment of mischief to a corrupted magical girl (It's more complicated than that, but the point is made regardless).

For skins that are naturally unrelated to the originals, scaling them wouldn't be something you can do by default just because they are AU versions of them.

Saying "Pulsefire exists" isn't going to cut it by itself. Some AU version characters being equal does not mean all AU versions are equal.


So I have a very simple question. Since it is apparently so obvious that every knowledgeable member, which is apparently something really difficult to become since Weekly can pinpoint who is and isn't one, noticed it, I'll ask you to prove that every skin has every power, ability, and minimum tier as the originals, or other ones.

So you don't need to prove "one skin is the same as canon", I want quotes and scans that justifies characters with different origins, power sources, backstories, mentalities, etc. to have the same abilities because they share looks and name, and because some of their ability look the same or similar. Or else I'll just point to other verses with AUs where unless shown au versions of the characters don't scale.
 
In League of Legends, alternate skins/timelines next to always exist as comparable to their real selves until proven otherwise.

>Different AU's, different backstories, mentalities, etc.

Yet they still almost always canonically have the same feats. All of Zoe's AU's for example are still capable of jumping rope with constellations and throwing around stars.

>Saying "Pulsefire exists" isn't going to cut it by itself. Some AU version characters being equal does not mean all AU versions are equal.

Pulsefire Caitlyn has been to and interacted with every single AU in the verse, they all scale
 
" like Battlecast, where the machines are supposed to be better versions of the characters " If they did not have the same abilities, they would not be better. " It's more complicated than that, but the point is made regardless "

It really is not especially when the character a specifically meant to be the same with just different levels of abilities which is why we then regress to their base level until they have feats that in most cases put them at a higher level.

" Some AU version characters being equal does not mean all AU versions are equal. "

By Occam's razor, yes that is exactly what it means. Characters again are exactly the same with some additions.

" since Weekly can pinpoint who is and isn't one "

Yes because we know who does and does not play the game or know its story since Weekly, I and a few other literally made the verse pages.

" to have the same abilities because they share looks and name, and because some of their ability look the same or similar. "

Those are the exact reasons, the have the same powers and abilities but at likely different levels.

" Or else I'll just point to other verses with AUs where unless shown au versions of the characters don't scale. "

Once again you are scaling AUs with specific retcons, to LoL AUs which are not universe retcons.
 
" Or else I'll just point to other verses with AUs where unless shown au versions of the characters don't scale. "

What applies to one verse does not automatically apply to another verse.
 
I asked for scans, not baseless claims.

Firstly, "almost all" doesn't hold when you are ready to put an entire group of them to 4-B. If they have similiar feats in their own skins, then that's fine, but if they don't have those feats, why should it be assumed they scale.


Give me scans of Catilyn interacting and being comparable with all of her AU selves.
 
Weekly and Rocker seem to make sense
 
WeeklyBattles said:
What applies to one verse does not automatically apply to another verse.
Click to expand...
Yes, but standards are broken when needed.

I am asking for proof, not theory.


Show me what proves that all AU versions of all characters are the same. I also don't see why they can be superior, but not inferior.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Yes, but standards are broken when needed.

I am asking for proof, not theory.


Show me what proves that all AU versions of all characters are the same. I also don't see why they can be superior, but not inferior.
Click to expand...
There are ones that are inferior, the infernals are inferior.

We out them at inferior levels when it is specified to be lower tan what they are normally capable of.
 
I mean.... Olaf is clearly different from Brolaf and the likes. Some skins are definitely different from each other.


That said uh, are we allowed to pinpoint who is and who isn't a knowledgeable person for a Franchise? That seems idk. Iffy
 
Rocker1189
It really is not especially when the character a specifically meant to be the same with just different levels of abilities which is why we then regress to their base level until they have feats that in most cases put them at a higher level.

But why can't the "different levels" be inferior?


By Occam's razor, yes that is exactly what it means. Characters again are exactly the same with some additions.

Once again, why? If a character has completely different explainations for their personality and abilities, why does their AP need to be at least equal to OG ones if they don't have the feats to back it up?


Those are the exact reasons, the have the same powers and abilities but at likely different levels.

And those different levels can't be lower levels?


Once again you are scaling AUs with specific retcons, to LoL AUs which are not universe retcons.

No, non-retcon alternate realities exist in fiction too.
 
Ciruno Fortes said:
I mean.... Olaf is clearly different from Brolaf and the likes. Some skins are definitely different from each other.

That said uh, are we allowed to pinpoint who is and who isn't a knowledgeable person for a Franchise? That seems idk. Iffy
Click to expand...
I dont remember weekly pinpointing anyone as not knowledgeable, but he has pinpointed knowledgeable people, since you know, we literally made the LoL pages.
 
Rocker1189 said:
There are ones that are inferior, the infernals are inferior.

We out them at inferior levels when it is specified to be lower tan what they are normally capable of.
Click to expand...
But why does it need to be proved that they are inferior?

The point is to take the base outline of the character and put a twist on it, like dystopian future of puella madoka magica. When they are inherently different, while the abilities stay, there is no reason to assume the AP stays to as a basis until shown otherwise.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
But why can't the "different levels" be inferior?

And those different levels can't be lower levels?
Click to expand...
They can

When the feats are literally throwing around stars it kinda hard to argue that theyr elower
 
Gotcha thanks for clarifying Rocker, glad I misunderstood it instead of being right. My assumption would've been bad for the verse
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
It really is not especially when the character a specifically meant to be the same with just different levels of abilities which is why we then regress to their base level until they have feats that in most cases put them at a higher level.

But why can't the "different levels" be inferior?


By Occam's razor, yes that is exactly what it means. Characters again are exactly the same with some additions.

Once again, why? If a character has completely different explainations for their personality and abilities, why does their AP need to be at least equal to OG ones if they don't have the feats to back it up?


Those are the exact reasons, the have the same powers and abilities but at likely different levels.

And those different levels can't be lower levels?


Once again you are scaling AUs with specific retcons, to LoL AUs which are not universe retcons.

No, non-retcon alternate realities exist in fiction too.
Click to expand...
Because yet again via Occam's razor we use their base until proven otherwise.

Then they would do the same as us, but bring up and example so that I could see that...
 
WeeklyBattles said:
They can

When the feats are literally throwing around stars it kinda hard to argue that theyr elower
Click to expand...
You see, thing is, what I am saying has nothing to do with that.

If the skin itself has a feat on a certain level, that's fine. But if they are featless, and their backstory and explainations for abilities don't have any feats comparable to the OG version, and they haven't shown to fight or scale to other characters on that level, then why would they stay on that level?
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
You see, thing is, what I am saying has nothing to do with that.

If the skin itself has a feat on a certain level, that's fine. But if they are featless, and their backstory and explainations for abilities don't have any feats comparable to the OG version, and they haven't shown to fight or scale to other characters on that level, then why would they stay on that level?
Click to expand...
OCCAM'S RAZOR
 
Rocker1189 said:
Because yet again via Occam's razor we use their base until proven otherwise.

Then they would do the same as us, but bring up and example so that I could see that...
Click to expand...
No, Occam's Razor means making less assumptions.

Problem is, we are both assuming one thing. You are assuming they are comparable on power, I am assuming that they are not.

Another common logic that comes to mind is Burden of Fallacy. You admit that AUs are meant to show them at differing levels of power, so I want proof for the claim that said level is equal to OG unless shown otherwise.
 
Rocker1189 said:
OCCAM'S RAZOR
Click to expand...
Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the smallest number of assumptions is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation. Occam's razor applies especially in the philosophy of science, but also more generally.

I am assuming their power can be lower than OG unless shown.

You are assuming it can't be lower unless shown.

One assumption for the both of us.
 
Rocker1189 said:
I dont remember weekly pinpointing anyone as not knowledgeable, but he has pinpointed knowledgeable people, since you know, we literally made the LoL pages.
Click to expand...
I'll... drop this, Weekly's claims about others don't have much to do with this.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
No, Occam's Razor means making less assumptions.

Problem is, we are both assuming one thing. You are assuming they are comparable on power, I am assuming that they are not.

Another common logic that comes to mind is Burden of Fallacy. You admit that AUs are meant to show them at differing levels of power, so I want proof for the claim that said level is equal to OG unless shown otherwise.
Click to expand...
Because most skins do have them on the same level and even more nearly always have them more powerful. I dont think there are many skins that have a character lower in power than their base.

In fact some skins provide info about the base skin.

Like Bard Bard(yes that is its name) a skin based on DnD talks about how Bard does not understand linear time so his turns take ages as a joke, but its not a joke because it is true about Bard, not following linear time as a higher dimensional existence.
 
>I dont think there are many skins that have a character lower in power than their base.

The Battlecast and Infernals are the only two i can think of and even then it also gives Sol a much higher tier
 
Rocker1189 said:
Because most skins do have them on the same level and even more nearly always have them more powerful. I dont think there are many skins that have a character lower in power than their base.

In fact some skins provide info about the base skin.

Like Bard Bard(yes that is its name) a skin based on DnD talks about how Bard does not understand linear time so his turns take ages as a joke, but its not a joke because it is true about Bard, not following linear time as a higher dimensional existence.
Click to expand...
The number of assumptions for both of us remains the same, so Occam's Razor is out as a concept regardless.

Another thing that comes in, again, is burden of proof for one, and the fact that only because something happens multiple times, it doesn't mean it will happen always.

If the skins are related by lore to their OG skin, then this has nothing to do with the discussion either.
 
So, again, my bad, but which points have I not responded to already? Not saying all my responses debunk, but I don't want to make texts of walls for no reason.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
The number of assumptions for both of us remains the same, so Occam's Razor is out as a conept regardless.

Another thing that comes in, again, is burden of proof for one, and the fact that only because something happens multiple times, it doesn't mean it will happen always.

If the skins are related by lore to their OG skin, then this has nothing to do with the discussion either.
Click to expand...
Every example we have counter to yours becomes a, this has nothing to do with it....

Fact of the matter is characters are nearly always the same level of power or higher in skins, that happens like 95% of the time(number pulled out of my ass but as someone pretty knowledgeable on skins, I am pretty sure it is close to correct).
 
95% is about correct, there are less than a dozen alt universe champs that are weaker than their base
 
Rocker1189 said:
Every example we have counter to yours becomes a, this has nothing to do with it....

Fact of the matter is characters are nearly always the same level of power or higher in skins, that happens like 95% of the time(number pulled out of my ass but as someone pretty knowledgeable on skins, I am pretty sure it is close to correct).
Click to expand...
If they have shown a feat equal of higher to the character, then they don't need to scale for obvious reason, and thus has nothing to do with this because the CRT is about assuming characters cannot be weaker than OG without proof. If they by lore are equal to the character (a stronger recreation of them) or have interacted and shown to be equal with alternate versions of their OG self then, again, it has nothing to do with this because they aren't being assumed to be equal, they are shown to be equal.

I don't think I dismissed anything else as "has nothing to do with this."


For the second part, that doesn't matter. Their alternate skins having stronger feats or scaling doesn't mean that skins without feats or scaling are equal to them. This falls under the "have shown feats equal or higher to the character" that I started this comment with.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
95% is about correct, there are less than a dozen alt universe champs that are weaker than their base
Click to expand...
Which means that they can't be weaker without proof?

Alt skins are for telling tales while using the outlines for the characters. They aren't mainly about how strong or weak they are, tough it plays a part in it sometimes, they are about an alternate story (often storytype/cliche). I see no reason why if they released a new skin with no feats or statements or showings beyond anything tier 9, they would be assumed to be equal to canon counterparts.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
If they have shown a feat equal of higher to the character, then they don't need to scale for obvious reason, and thus has nothing to do with this because the CRT is about assuming characters cannot be weaker than OG without proof. If they by lore are equal to the character (a stronger recreation of them) or have interacted and shown to be equal with alternate versions of their OG self then, again, it has nothing to do with this because they aren't being assumed to be equal, they are shown to be equal.

I don't think I dismissed anything else as "has nothing to do with this."


For the second part, that doesn't matter. Their alternate skins having stronger feats or scaling doesn't mean that skins without feats or scaling are equal to them. This falls under the "have shown feats equal or higher to the character" that I started this comment with.
Click to expand...
That..is exactly what it means, it means that the skins are created with the knowledge that they would be on the same level of power or higher as that is almost always the case.


Then...the literally only thing this affects is Star guardians which again with their showings of blatantly superior speeds of ridiculous proportions and with Zoe have the same level of backstory (being alive for Eons, travelling the through dimensions via portals and the rest, there is no reason to believe any of them weaker than their base and waay more reason to believe them stronger and on top of that the First Star statement.

It is pretty clear that Zoe is on the same level as her base skin. The star guardians are massively more powerful than their base however.
 
Then, can you agree that they don't scale to equal by default by virtue of being a skin of that character? Leaving Star Guardian tiers aside, can you agree that as long as a skin has no feats, no statements or no lore that directly connects them and scales them to their OG version, they can be weaker?
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Then, can you agree that they don't scale to equal by default by virtue of being a skin of that character? Leaving Star Guardian tiers aside, can you agree that as long as a skin has no feats, no statements or no lore that directly connects them and scales them to their OG version, they can be weaker?
Click to expand...
They certaily can be else we would not have any skins that are weaker, but we do, every champ has a skin why do you think we dont have them all(ignoring how much work it would take) on here? That has always been the case. However we would generally put them at the same level of strength as the base.
 
Rocker1189 said:
That..is exactly what it means, it means that the skins are created with the knowledge that they would be on the same level of power or higher as that is almost always the case.
Click to expand...
So you edited this part on after I answered. I have no idea what part you are answering to, so I can't really answer either.

I am asking that if the skin hasn't showed to be comparable (or superior), then they wouldn't be assumed to be. It's more a principle for the game than actively applying it to anything yet, that will be a discussion of it's own.

Can you agree with that?
 
Rocker1189 said:
They certaily can be else we would not have any skins that are weaker, but we do, every champ has a skin why do you think we dont have them all(ignoring how much work it would take) on here? That has always been the case. However we would generally put them at the same level of strength as the base.
Click to expand...
So you agree that the fact that they are a skin of the character alone isn't enough to scale the character to them? Thtat's all I'm asking?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Shiedaisthepeak
League Of Legends Tier 1 Upgrade!
2
Replies
59
Views
2K
Protector_Hunk
Protector_Hunk
Baabasaplar95
League of Legends profile fixes
Replies
12
Views
918
Baabasaplar95
Baabasaplar95
League of Legends Zilean tier upgrade
Replies
2
Views
461
Algaron114
League of Legends mordekaiser upgrade
Replies
3
Views
644
Shiedaisthepeak
Shiedaisthepeak
Shiedaisthepeak
  • Locked
  • Article
League Of Legends Odyssey Kayn Upgrade
Replies
36
Views
2K
Mr. Bambu
Mr. Bambu
Back
Top