Light Novel Adaptions

[Faisal_Shourov]

But isn't the problem that very few people read Light Novel? Many profiles can have false (not misinterpreted, plain false/fake) information and can go uncontested because nobody can counter that unless they read the LN. While I agree manga might change some feats, how are we gonna deal with what I said above? That's one of the key points in the OP.

Also, it's not like feats from LN can be interpreted easily anyway, so can only make educated guesses from text most of the time since there's no image to scale directly. I was trying to differentiate between LN and manga as primary source earlier, that's where the leniency came in (suggesting we treat them differently from manga as primary source)

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I will inform Lord Kavpeny.

 

[RavenSupreme]

there is a difference if certain statements regard complete countable things like distances or sizes of things. the same can be said for destruction values.

but when something in the LN is described at faster than light multiple times one can not assume people will see it as a metaphorical hyperbole.

going by the newest canonical fluff is the rule we apply. according to you the narrative freedom would make a certain magical index characters FTL.

what we reject for animes and mangas (namely hyperbole statements which dont fit in the overall setting of the story) would suddenly be legit because in a light novel the author took his freedom to narrate things as much as he want

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to stick with the example of a certain magical index

so. we have an anime which left guys like accelerator at MHS - how exactly do we now treat the FTL statements?

 

[DontTalk]

But, if the author supervice the manga/anime adaption, and allow a change, that's canon or it doesn't?

If an author supervises a manga/anime adaption it is secondary canon. So it will be seen as true as long as it doesn't contradict the light novel.

If a contradiction to the LN should be accepted, then the author would have to officially declare that information specifically as true or declare the manga/anime adaption as main canon, but that basically doesn't happen.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

If an author supervises a manga/anime adaption it is secondary canon. So it will be seen as true as long as it doesn't contradict the light novel.

If a contradiction to the LN should be accepted, then the author would have to officially declare that information specifically as true or declare the manga/anime adaption as main canon, but that basically doesn't happen.

Suppose author doesn't superivse the anime/manga, but the said feat is pretty much the same as in the light novel. Are those feats still unusable? This is for specific cases only (we have some specific cases for every rule page).

I may have asked this before, just to double check

 

[DontTalk]

so. we have an anime which left guys like accelerator at MHS - how exactly do we now treat the FTL statements?

Accelerator isn't MHS per anime. Accelerator is MHS per canon manga, light novel would put him only at High Hypersonic+. But that aside.

And as said we treat it with the proper reasoning of lightning not being lightspeed.

I also don't see why it would be any harder to see hyperbole in an light novel then in a manga, given that it is exactly the same rhetorical device.

If an author would be really persistent about something being reliably lightspeed, maybe the author simply intents it to be lightspeed. That is a possibility as well.

"Many profiles can have false (not misinterpreted, plain false/fake) information and can go uncontested because nobody can counter that unless they read the LN."

That is why usually one should ask for quotes in content revision threads. And if one is really sceptical quotes with a bit of context.

Not like less known mangas are the populary read either way.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

At least Rakudai manga is cano

 

[RavenSupreme]

how would accelerator be hypersonic when the statements i gave are ftl statements? i dont see the connection there

you cant expect people who read LN to go for "proper reasoning". the argument "there is a FTL statement" (just as i do now to show you what to expect) will take over the proper reasoning.

and since only a few people are aware of the LN and how to treat it they will most likely get upgrades they do not deserve.

if an author has 4 statements with ftl on different occasions of course you have to face "the author is consistent" arguments

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you cant know every LN out there - if for example you were not aware of a certain LN and there is a quote which puts them at a certain level despite being contradicted in the entire rest of the story (by statements too) the chances the flawed quote will be taken for granted is high

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the LN as first and only canon source when there is nothing else -> yes

the LN as prioritised canon source when there is a manga/anime alongside it? no - outside of helpful advices like distances etc.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Raven it's hyperbole, very common in LN's.

 

[Antvasima]

I am glad that the staff can disagree while still being civil to each other. I hope that we can continue to keep it that way.

 

[RavenSupreme]

"how is this a hyperbole when it was written in 4 different fight scenes especially that way - i demand an upgrade for the accelerator, it is in the LN which is the only and first canon source"

you may realize what i do - this is exactly with what kind of arguments and comments you have to reckon

and you cant "prove" it to being a hyperbole - the only thing we have is the statements of different occasions.

the sole LN as primary canon source is a dangerous gamble which you can not control

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what qualifies as being hyperbole? what qualifies against it? too much to argue over

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Raven the author also consistently states that characters move at supersonic speeds, literally dozens of times but that doesn't make them supersonic. there's probably about 5 lightspeed quotes in the Lightnovel. Lightning moving at lightspeed is obvious hyperbole, especially when it's the same properties as natural lightning, otherwise all the fodder in the verse are lightspeed.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I have to agree with what raven and faisal are saying giving light novels as being the only canon can lead to many erroneous upgrades.As in manga and anime there statements that are hyperbole and outliers etc but those are easier to catch because for one many more people watch anime than read ln and two we have visuals and other stuff not in a ln which we can judge if a feat/statement is legit or not unless a ln specifically gives details like distance and time etc it makes judging feats up to interpretation.Some people will just go with literal definitions of statements so they can upgrade their favorite characters and that just gonna be a headache as not many people read ln anyway to know if a character is being wanked or not.I say manga can be used as a supplement to the ln as to gauge or clarify things that we couldnt visually see in a ln if it doesnt contradict the ln.

 

[RavenSupreme]

i know aizen. i am aware of the certain magical indey - however imagine none of us would be aware of the fact or the verse in general. then we would be presented 4 different FTL quotes as "prove" while no one here has intel on the series.


-> we would end up with an inflated character profile, causing confuision for people who refer to the page in debates

 

[LordAizenSama]

oh, so that's what you're getting at. Yes this is a point I didn't delve into much in the OP, it is hard to prove a negative (saying that the quotes presented in a upgrade thread are incorrect) when you can only see what you're presented with, this problem is inflated a bit because Lightnovels are fairly obscure and i'd safely wager not very many continue from the anime to Lightnovel form

but to that Lightspeed lightning example it would be a easy case, as lightning just simply doesn't move that fast so you'd be inclined to question it, but in many other cases it wouldn't be as simple.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. This is getting complicated, and I am very tired, so I am not of much help I'm afraid.

 

[RavenSupreme]

the light novels are one of, if not the most important source to get certain feats and scaling for their respective verse - thats nothing i deny

however if the author of the LN itself is involved in the manga/anime which tells the same story we should regard the LN only as primary source if the manga or anime leaves out certain feats due to cutting it for a brider audience

this way we guarantee that a no one can trick us into certain hyperboles being taken as legit (since they are depicted that way in the new canon material) and we still have access to all the feats from the LN to arguably further boost the verses power - which is a reasonable compromise to me

of course we can take canon sizes from the LN as well, when they are not represented in the anime/manga

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Hmm. This is getting complicated, and I am very tired, so I am not of much help I'm afraid.

We have several discussions going on at the same time, it's complicated alright.

 

[Non-Bias]

I can see why lightning moving at light speed is hyperbole, but what about other statements involving the words "light speed"?

IIRC, Vali Lucifer from DxD LN was stated to move at the speed of light, yet the anime/manga doesn't suggest this. In fact, if Vali was light speed, why could other characters read his movements enough to say that?

Not to mention that the Satans are apparently country busters though context, even though most of them have little to no feats that wouldn't even suggest that level of power.

It's for reasons like that it's easy to say everything about a LN is hyperbole. Visual feats are much better in my opinion because of that unless it goes hand and hand with the anime/manga.

 

[DontTalk]

the light novels are one of, if not the most important source to get certain feats and scaling for their respective verse - thats nothing i deny
however if the author of the LN itself is involved in the manga/anime which tells the same story we should regard the LN only as primary source if the manga or anime leaves out certain feats due to cutting it for a brider audience

this way we guarantee that a no one can trick us into certain hyperboles being taken as legit (since they are depicted that way in the new canon material) and we still have access to all the feats from the LN to arguably further boost the verses power - which is a reasonable compromise to me

of course we can take canon sizes from the LN as well, when they are not represented in the anime/manga

That is impractical out of several reasons. For one thing I end up with having to know the lightnovel to judge if the manga can be used. Basically I have to see if the feat is in the light novel and if it is described different. Additionally I would have to check if a certain feat that is in the manga doesn't contradict the light novel, because that happens as well.

The moment we take straight forward statements of the light novel that are important and legitimate to judge, but are taking manga as primary canon due to avoiding hyperbole we would also already used a distinction between what is hyperbole and what isn't. So if we would do that we could stick to the lightnovel in the first place.

Basically taking the manga as primary canon can only work if you disregard the lightnovels description of things completly. That would mean you disregard the primary source of canon information, because it is to bothersome. Something I would not agree with.


As said manga would still be secondary canon, so people that know the manga depiction could judge if a feat is legitimate in context of the verse also for lightnovel feats through that.

That is of course only the case as long as the manga doesn't derivate from the lightnovel, but if it did we would disregard those scenes either way as it would tell a different story, right?

 

[RavenSupreme]

i encourage the usage of the LNs description of things, such as the distance between two places, the way how certain feats played out (if for example something was vaporized or pulverized) when we do not have similar statements in the new canon source.

i however do not encourage the usage of the LNs feats and descriptions as sole foundation for a character tiering if the new canon source (when the author is directly involved in it) plays them out differently.if that means certain feats are an upgrade or a downgrade does not matter in this case. only when a specific feat is not used in the new canon source the previous canon source can be used to determine the tier of it.

and yes, while that means people have to do research on the verse they want to support, including researching certain LN, it is a much easier approach than the other way round, where people have to research the LN for "every" feat since the LN would be considered the primary source - rendering the manga and anime close to useless.

because this would encourage the scene i have told aizen already - we end up running into people bringing quotes and descriptions from a LN no one here is aware off and inflating certain verses and characters due to the quotes which no one can disprove as hyperbole (e.g. the FTL statements from index)

re-watching some anime scenes to try finding wheteher or not these things are justified is possible for everyone since the anime and manga can be accessed from everyone. if we go the other way only very few if any people can actually comprehend the bigger picture of out-of-context quotes and argue against it. and they most likely have to read through an entire light novel to do so -something no one actually plans to do on a regular base

the manga and anime is supposed to re-tell / visualize the story the author narrated - often in close partnership with the author himself

i see no problem accepting the new manga and anime as canon source if they do so in an appropriate way

 

[LazyHunter]

@RavenSupreme

Sorry, but I don't agree with you. I have to side with DontTalk and LordAizen on this. If a series has LNs as the primary canon then that's the canon source, not the anime or manga, as they are just adaptations. It would be the same as using the anime adaptation of a manga over the original manga or a movie adaptation over the original book; the primary canon doesn't change in those cases why should it happen with LNs? Most times manga and anime adaptations don't have a lot of input from the author and they can skip or change scenes or even arcs completely if the anime team wants. There's a reason anime adaptations of LNs have become a little infamous for how they usually fail as an adaptation and are merely intended as an advertisement for the novels.

So, IMO anime and manga adaptations of LNs shouldn't be considered the primary canon over the original LNs in any case. They are at best complementary to the novels. For example, if a LN has a scene where a characer destroys a park, hill, etc... and the size isn't described in the novel, then the anime version of the scene could be used to try and calc it, as long as it doesn't wildly contradict the novel.

Also, the lightspeed lightning Index quotes you keep bringing up, could you tell me from which novel they are? Because I only remember Kamachi using the speed of light comparison in the first few novels of Old Testament and it's always just the same comparison of Mikoto's lightning, making it clear is an hyperbole like LordAizenSama said. That's why it isn't used here.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that what LazyHunter wrote makes sense.

 

[DontTalk]

@RavenSupreme: If you say distances and stuff (I assume that includes clear speed statments), can still be taken you already have distinguished between stuff as hyperbole and for example a statement stating that character moves at 3000 m/s as legitimate. In other words your hyperbole only works if you already know it is hyperbole. If you didn't know it you can not distinguish between absolutely legitimate facts which should be considered and other facts.

If you ignore such statements as character x can move 3000 m/s just because it is a light novel you are effectively downplaying the verse because you can not bother to judge if the feat is legitimate.

So I will not agree with not using legitimate LN information to judge a verse that is originally a light novel and since you have to deal with the lightnovel to see if they are legitimate in the first place I don't see any reason to not use the lightnovel as primary source in the first place.


If a manga just supervised by the author does something different it's non canon either way, like for example Touma being able to negate misakas railgun in the manga, which never happened in canon and should not be possible.

So the manga can logically only give additional information, as soon as it gives different information its non canon, since why ever it does the author is the one who decides how it officially goes. Differences made by the one drawing it etc. are just not anymore canon then changes made in a not supervised anime adaption divering from the plot completly.

And all information that could be considered for the manga to be used in the first place can easily be checked for hyperbole by the once that know just the manga. One knows the context from the manga and can judge from there. I don't see any case where someone knowing just the manga could not judge a scene that happened without contradiction like that in the lightnovel.


Saying scenes in the original should be replaced by different scenes from a new manga is just utter nonsense.

Take to aru as example:

Some of the best feats just wouldn't be usable due to just not being explained in the manga and whole scenes don't happen in the index manga. Saying that something cut down like that should be considered canon over the LN will just cripple the story completly unnecessarily. Specifically I know quite a few profiles that would have to be rewritten if we would suddenly begin using index manga for scenes.


Additionally it is highly impractical. We for example would have to change existing to aru profiles ones the to aru manga catches up with light novel releases. So basically having to rewrite profiles because we suddenly are not allowed to use canon lightnovel stuff anymore just because a manga or anime adaption came out. That is a lot more work than just sticking by what is canon in the first place.


In a way it also doesn't make profiles any more reliable to ignore canon information. On the countary it makes them less reliable, because we depict the verse by a smaller selection of information then is avaiable and by that give them less accurate stats.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with DontTalk and LazyHunter. But I am very tired, and going to bed now.

 

[RavenSupreme]

i think we need a poll to solve that matter. i can acknowledge the majorities opinion despite i do not support it - and never will, since i fear - no, i know, it will lead to absolutely inflated character profiles due to people taking LNs no one reads and out of context quotes to prove their point

but i also see people agreeing with my points.

is there a way to add a poll?

@Antvasima

 

[Alakabamm]

For example, if an LN has a scene where a characer destroys a park, hill, etc... and the size isn't described in the novel, then the anime version of the scene could be used to try and calc it, as long as it doesn't wildly contradict the novel.

This is my opinion as well.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

For example, if an LN has a scene where a characer destroys a park, hill, etc... and the size isn't described in the novel, then the anime version of the scene could be used to try and calc it, as long as it doesn't wildly contradict the novel.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say, thank you. Does Dont Talk agree with this point of yours? I think not

At the moment we have very mixed opinions. This is quite troublesome

 

[LordAizenSama]

@raven so far we've done a pretty good job of knocking back hyperbole statements, I know a few we've knocked back like faster than Light Vali from DxD or Lightspeed Brain from Overlord.

 

[RavenSupreme]

@aizen yeha. thats basically my entire point. being a community people from all around the net go for finding informations on their characters we should keep it as trustworthy as possible - and i see it in danger when LN as sole foundation for canon referral is used since we simply can not know every LN out there with all its hyperboles, legitimate feats etc. whereas a manga or anime is quick to check.

however you have way more experience here on community matters and when the majority agrees over the topic i will rest my case.

 

[DontTalk]

This is exactly what I have been trying to say, thank you. Does Dont Talk agree with this point of yours? I think not

As long as the anime isn't non canon (as for example akame ga kill anime having a completly different plotline in the end and more importantly not overviewed by original creator) I would not be against it. I have just recently approved of it in for example this calc.

 

[DontTalk]

@RavenSupreme: While there is a poll function I believe it may be best to wait for Lord Kavpenys opinion on this before trying to bring closure on this.

It is also debetable how much sense a poll makes (in the vs. community the popular opinion is often not the most reasonable opinion, even though in this case it is more debatable then when it comes to specific character stats)

 

[Lina_Shields]

@DontTalk: Except that what you posted was the manga version, not the anime version.

 

[DontTalk]

@DontTalk: Except that what you posted was the manga version, not the anime version.

The discussion was not specifically about anime, but about secondary canon media at this point I thought.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that a poll would be a bad idea, as the Vs community at large tends to favour whichever option that potentially boost their favourite franchises the most, and disfavour their least favourite franchises. I trust DontTalk's and LazyHunter's common sense regarding this matter.

 

[Kavpeny]

Hmmm...I was initially surprised that the canon status of light novels, and their subsequent adaptations, was turning into such a major discussion. I presumed the base stance would be similar to our stance regarding graphic novels (comic books, manga, etc.) in general.

The problem here is that while manga and other forms of "source material" provide a visual basis for their story, light novels are limited to text for the most part. This in turn makes determination of magnitude of feats that much harder, in addition to the fact that words alone are often a limited form of expression, and subject to misinterpretation and subjectivity.

My opinion on this matter is similar to my stance regarding other source material: As long as any adaptations (secondary canon) are not contradictory with respect to the source material (primary canon), their feats may be utilized for indexing purposes as well.

However, as I said previously, words alone are often subject to misinterpretation, hence statistics based on statements alone will require a much more thorough analysis before being accepted.

Additionally, I agree that the my opinion on the stance is by no means a perfect solution, but I do believe we can all agree that it allows for the highest degree of accuracy regarding the statistics of characters.

I acknowledge the points made by members opposed to the degree of canonicity as valid.

It is true that writers of Light Novels often modify character stats/feats in subsequent adaptations. The problem with acceptance of such "soft retcons" is that writers often fail to re-adjust the relative power levels of other characters, thereby leading to logical inconsistencies in the Verse's power-scaling.

The solution to this is to accept soft retcons only if they are not contradicted by any future instances of the light novel, with regards to either the character power-scale, or logical inconsistencies (and plot holes).

Agreements/disagreements/suggestions?

@RavenSupreme: Polls are mostly irrelevant. While the community's opinion matters, we make decisions on the basis of reasoning and logic put forward by the members of the community, not the number of votes.

Additionally, the same IP address can vote on the same poll multiple times. In other words, I could create a script to vote for a particular option over a thousand times, within the time-frame of a single minute. Basically, the poll feature is meant for casual use, not important decisions such as this.

P.S.: @DontTalk & Antvasima: Sorry for being late to this thread.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Absolutely accepted. Everyone here needs to read your thoughts about this topic. I believe this means as long as the feat displayed in the anime does not contradict with respect to the light novel, we are allowed to use the calculations based on the anime feats, correct?

Any thoughts on the manga vs anime calculations, especially if they display different amount of AP? For example, a feat for a character displayed in the anime could be smaller/bigger from the same character displayed in the manga, due to artistic design.

In your opinion, should the manga be taken priority over the anime if the author of the LN had direct involvement in it? There is a LN that has a manga/anime adaptation, but the author only had direct involvement in the creating the manga, not the anime.

 

[Alakabamm]

However, as I said previously, words alone are often subject to misinterpretation, hence statistics based on statements alone will require a much more thorough analysis before being accepted.

Can you explain this point a bit more? Are you saying we should doubt if character a says they are more powerful than character b or that character a has an ability which amps them up 10x their normal power or that character a says they can destroy a mountain, so they are mountain level?

 

[Lina_Shields]

I believe this means that if a character says he can destroy a mountain, we should take it a grain of salt unless they demonstrate a mountain-busting feat or hurting a character that has mountain-level durability.

A show of feats would be a better proof, as it holds more weight in regards to demonstrating what a certain character can do (compared to boasts).

 

[Antvasima]

@Lord Kavpeny No problem. I believe that this mostly settles the matter then.

@DontTalk I would appreciate if you would adjust the Cano page accordingly when you find the time.

@Crazystarf & Alakabamm In addition, mountains are of different sizes. When Gildartz shattered a small mountain, it was only calculated as Town level.