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Li Shusen vs Zekka

Leaning towards Li. Familiar as hell with Gunnm Last Order, I love that manga. And, Zekka should have a nervous system. There's variation, but most Cyborgs are really just brains in a metal suit with artificial skin and maybe muscles that are as fluid as organic matter but aren't. It's entirely possible that No Second Strike will affect Zekka's physiology because of how it targets Nerves, but that might be a stretch given its mystical nature and biological/spiritual origin as Mana/Od/Chi or whatever. Irrelevant to him getting fried robo-nerves, Zekka encounters several problems.

His brain is still biological, so even if my perspective (maybe headcanon?) on if it can affect robot nerves is out, his brain and any biological nerves connected to it will be severely discombobulated at best. He might still die from the damage too, given the extent of the damage. Alita's robot body, though her brain was switched with a chip last minute, still had biological parts like eyes and brain stems and nerves in it. So, I assume the same is true for Zekka or at least similar, given he is a CYBORG, and not a full robot. Even if it doesn't kill him, he might get stunlocked like wolf boi from before, or at best, have D&D disadvantage on all of his rolls— I mean he'll be really slow and nerfed and dizzy, possibly more than normal given his body is run solely by his brain iirc.

Next, Li probably starts the fight off invisible. And he can toggle that on and off at will, and... yeah. Hand to hand combat will be a bitch.

Also, his very body might be considered a modern weapon, which all servants are immune to. Especially given he's a cyborg killing machine...?
 
Alright let's go, Zekka's profile does need a few updates but I'll stick with what's on the profile just because the series he's from is very obscure.


Li is most likely the most skilled of the two but Zekka should be able to keep up, as he's a master of an ancient martial art and has been practicing it for over 100+ years. He has perfect vision, similar to that of a fly's, granting him enhanced senses and eyesight. As a Frizzory cyborg Zekka jacks any internal organs, and he has a synthetic robotic brain. He's stomped people who can counter and adapt to his fighting style within a few minutes.


Zekka has also directly countered durability negation in a similar way that Li negated durability and can even send the attack back at the opponent. Which is useless given he dosen't have any organic parts for Li to actually affect here, meanwhile Zekka has a way to put Li down for good if it lands. Well two methods actually, the first being from the Hertza Haeon, allowing Zekka to directly bypass his opponents durability by sending highly concentrated vibrations throughout the opponents body, targetting organs to blow them up. ( Which even works on other robots somehow. ) however this is childs play for Zekka as he knows an even more effective way to bypass durability.


That method being done through the usage of his ignition punch. Most of the time when punching or attacking an opponent most of the KE is lost throughout the opponents body, be it through the body spreading it or it flinging the opponent. However what Zekka does is specifically make it so that the KE turns into a shockwave to blow the opponent up from the inside out and has the added benefit of transmuting the opponents skin into glass. And in the worst case scenario, Zekka can finish it with his suicide attack.
 
Hmm. Right.

I don't think Zekka comes close to Li's skill, given who he's based on in real life, but that's irrelevant in the face of everything else.

If he has a synthetic robot brain, i'm 66% sure No Second Strike will not work, though, depending, it may. Not something to rule out 100% imo, but it is a point against Li.

Uhh... Only thing he has is presence concealment and invisibility, which... May stop him from getting hit. And hit and run strats might have helped if it wasn't for Zekkas abilities. Hm.

Maybe not Li. I say Zekka pulls it through actually. He can, kinda, nuke a wide area can't he? Imma go read Last order's ending again.

Edit: But Wait. Is Zekka a modern weapon? Because he might not even be able to hurt him at all, given Servant immunity to modern weapons and technology. Ehhh. I wanna say inconclusive only because that's fishy and I don't think I can personally rule it out at all. People say they're registered as weapons due to their body's power, and. Well... Zekka deserves that more than anything.
 
I mean yes and no, Zekka is technically a weapon so to speak but in Nasu he'd have mystery given his supernatural existence. I'd imagine cyborgs in space would have mystery in Nasu standards.
 
Yeah, but that Servant is by definition magic through virtue of being a servant. And therefore they can harm other servants.

I disagree. I think Nasu would say that he's a robot through and through. That's irrelevant though, since, well, his opinion is speculative. What is true, however, is that the spirit of the verse itself is purely science fiction. Zekka's fight with Sechs resulted in Sechs getting his frizzroy body powerup. By circulating some polywhatever chemical that powers their bodies at the speee of sound, it converted from a gel to a plasma which energized their bodies further. The martial arts terms thrown around are a combination of soft sci-fi concepts mixed with anime bullshit based on extremely loose real world scientific principles. Zekka's body has a circulatory system that colides elementary particles into Anti-Matter in a custom reactor in his body. Hyper Electromagnetic Karate is all about this plasma manipulation science shit. They go over concepts like phase changing and talk about Sechs having higher Specs than Zekka due to being a newer model. Even the vampires are more zombie virus than magic blood suckers. There's no magic to these robots, and very little in the verse period. Contrast this with people who can see the lines of death in things and cut them to cause true damage or something...? Not science at all.

Bottomline; What we know is that Zekka is a robot. Not magic. If Iron Man's suit of armor is a weapon, ALL of Zekka is a weapon. So unless he can use magic, I say Li is immune to all of it personally. But because that's a grey area, I vote inconclusive.
 
Mystery has nothing to do with Tiering. What?

Mystery is another word for magic in the nasuverse. It's mystical stuff, like Chi and Ghosts and shit. Sure, it's ridiculously impossible to do anything that these characters are doing in real life, but that's because it's anime bullshit and science fiction. All futuristic and no mystery to it.
 
Don't quote me on this, this came from Risci

"She only nopes things that are realistic by modern world standards. A 7-A car crash would work, because it's not normal for it to be 7-A."
 
That alone is debatable, and in a context where this character from the future is for all intents and purposes is accomplishing this through "purely scientific means". Given what Risci said, the only reason why a 7-A car crash would work is because something unnatural and presumably mystical made it be 7-A.

In Nasuverse, biological superpowers like X-Men mutations are probably(?) things of Mystery, people with them are called Psychics. Regardless of that, biological powers aren't "modern" weapons. Given they're based in biology, they're exempt. This is a machine with machine powers. That's double non-mysterious. Everything they're doing isn't mysterious because it's caused through the scientific engineering of things.

By this logic, Gundam and non-magical super robots are mystical, even though all of their super huge feats are done through science, are mysterious too, by virtue of being stronger than what is arbitrarily normal in a specific verse that doesn't have futuristic bullshit like him yet. If the 7-A car was traveling with enough inertia to cause it to be 7-A which was generated scientifically using a scientific engine of some kind that can make things move at the speed of light, that's not mysterious. That's just new tech...
 
It's not Servant mystery. It's the fact that mystery is the source of all supernatural phenomena such as Magecraft or ESP, and beings such as True Ancestors, Dead Apostles, Servants, Spiritual Bodies, as well as Phantasmal Species show signs of Mystery. All supernatural powers that go beyond normal human capability come through the power of the Root and shit. Servants are just immune to things that lack it because they're magic I guess?

"They can only be harmed by attacks accompanied by magical energy like a Servant throwing dirks imbued with magical energy, so they can ignore even debris in battle unless it should become contaminated by an enemy's magical energy.[7] Only Servants can normally harm other Servants physically, so even a paper knife could be used to harm a Servant should another Servant wield it.[43] Servants that are physically incarnated through methods such as blackening can no longer return to spiritual form, allowing them to be damaged with strong enough magical weapons able to pierce the shadows surrounding them in the case of blackening.[44]"

So, you need to either be magical, strengthen your attacks with Magic, or be what the nasuverse classified as a "mystery". Shiki Ryogi has been classified as that, but they're a biological person with superpowers, which also is powered or involves mystery anyway.

I don't think things that aren't caused by supernatural means are mysterious given this. All of Zekka's capabilites are based in the softest of softly soft science fiction. From his immense physical capabilities to his antimatter generator in his stomach.
 
I will say this, not everything Zekka does is explained through sheer technology and science, he literally makes people explode through his skill in punching someone
 
Amexim said:
Mystery has nothing to do with Tiering. What?

Mystery is another word for magic in the nasuverse. It's mystical stuff, like Chi and Ghosts and shit. Sure, it's ridiculously impossible to do anything that these characters are doing in real life, but that's because it's anime bullshit and science fiction. All futuristic and no mystery to it.
Click to expand...
Mystery is as implied by it's title, something that is gained by being mysterious . Something like a sword being 400 years old would cause it to have mystery. So a person strong enough to destroy a continent or island with brute force would definitely have mystery. Mystery on its own doesn't mean magic. Like, ghosts are dead people, they aren't magic. And people in Nasu have amounts of Mystery from being able to do ridiculously skilled things (Like Billy being able to shoot three times at once). So even ignoring Zekka's tier, being able to make someone explode through skill based attacks would definitely give him Mystery.
 
Assasin scales below 62 Gigatons

If it's straight up passive then Assasin still has a solid AP advantage

Of course Li seems to lose his Dura negation attack and Zekka has 2 of them.
 
I fundamentally disagree with Dragon Emperor. Reading the Type Moon Wiki, which is a REALLY good source, I see 0 information that corroborates his statement, leading me to believe that's an interpretation alone based on the way he phrases it. Not only that, but it doesn't even negate any of the extenuating issues with Zekka's nature.

"Magecraft (Ú¡öÞíô, Majutsu?), or Thaumaturgy, is the artificial reenactment of Mystery, which is ordinarily possible only by inhuman beings.[1][2]

It is the ability to bring about what is possible through science with supernatural means; although the process is considered a miracle, the result is not. The limits of Magecraft have changed with time, as science evolved and Magic from the past became possible through science."

I mean, you can literally just read the Type Moon wiki— don't. Actually. It's a LOT of information to digest.

So, from this information, I would say a few things.

1. Zekka's vibration attacks are explained by martial artists who state nothing mystical about his abilities. Almost everything else about everything in the verse is related to soft science fiction concepts. Things like Don Fua's Black hole attacks and Zekka's antimatter strikes delve into and are brought about using some sort of sci-fi bullshit, so to argue that he might be "magical" in a verse that has nothing to support that claim whatsoever just because not every single breath he takes has a paragraph and translators note to justify his bullshit is rather weak. In addition, this is coming from a verse that uses its soft sci-fi in notes to explain things that happen in the story with small paragraphs in the margins. To substantiate the claim that Zekka is mystical, you would need more evidence than the fact that not every single page has a 20 paragraph essay on his machinery specs. Even concepts that would otherwise be totally unbelievable are reduced to technology. Don Fua can fade in between dimensions through the use of a special device in his body according to Trinidad, who can **** people's bodies up using his connection to cyberspace thanks to the 3 chips in his brain.

So, a lot of it is rather explained by "science".

2. The definition of magecraft applies mystery to things, and it has nothing to do with it being "unknowable"— more that Mystery is a word for magical quality. It by definition doesn't break the laws of what is possible in the universe because it's essentially preforming possible things without the necessary technology, having magic energy as the catalyst. Zekka's body is literally a scientific machine, designed to do a whole bunch of the shit that he does. He himself put in an antimatter reactor that gave him his suicide move, and Sech's body was built for fighting it seems, or at least given to him with the purpose to defeat Zekka in mind, making it a modern weapon. Worse, Zekka is the same type of body as Sechs, and he's dedicated every moment of his existence it seems to being a manifestation of Karate itself. He's as "weapon" and "modern" as it gets. Arguably taken to the highest degree in both based on him being a futuristic killing machine, even if that path was chosen by him.

3. The argument that Ghosts are without quality of mystery directly contradicts what is considered "supernatural" by fate, which, and I don't mean to be rude, discredits your opinion in my eyes, because that's not how the verse works in the most obvious ways. By that logic, Servants, which are able to be reduced to time traveling ghosts, aren't "mysterious" either.

4. A person with enough brute strength to level a continent would definitely have to have Mystery if they were a native to type moon, but the problem is...

A. Zekka isn't a person. He would not have a soul, given everything including his mind is synthetic. Even Gally wondered if she, in her artificial existence, had a soul. And by our standards, robots don't have souls. He's more a robot suit of armor controlled by a remote system, or a Gundam than a person, and Gundams won't hurt servants, no matter how strong they are, especially if they are BUILT to be that powerful. Which, for all intents and purposes, cyborgs in Gunnm... Are...? I don't think you can train a robotic body even in this verse— you likely improve your skill by improving your body's technology and how you use it, which is consistent in many parts of the verse, and even Gally's body and Sechs whole existence was built with fighting and in Gally's case, adapting in combat, in mind. The argument that he can be seen as a weapon is way stronger than him being seen as a "mystery" infused metal golem that lacks a soul to be considered a real golem or any form of magic thing...? The main arguments are basically "he's strong, and from an anime where you can do crazy shit". Not even shitty old 1800s guns can hurt them unless used by other servants. Drake's guns are old and primitive, but they work because they're magic.

B. A flesh and blood person isn't affected by this phenomena anyway, so a 3A fleshy boi with nothing else besides AP can still hurt a servant. Normal people and magus are too weak to accomplish dealing any real damage to them because they have, like, no AP to hurt them. Not because they're naturally immune, nor because they have some sort of magic energy surrounding all of their attacks. Unless you wanna upgrade them to be immune to non-magical damage or something, which I disagree with I think? Point is, them being continent level would help them hurt a servant anyway. They never had a problem touching them because of this immunity.

C. In Type Moon, you cant be strong without having Mystery. So, to claim that anyone strong in any other verse has Mystery by virtue of being strong is not a rational argument. Sure, everyone in Type Moon who is strong is therefore filled with Mystery because otherwise strength on that level is impossible, but not everyone outside of Type Moon applies to that obviously. It's a verse specific thing, and in order for us to judge whether or not other verses meet the requirement, they have to have something similar. Like magic. Or specifically mutant or psychic powers. Zekka doesn't even have any "superpowers" considering he's a robot. All of it is just functions and things that are built into him or his robotic body is exploited by him using its natural functions to his advantage.

Overall... Nah.

We can ignore that immunity for sake of conversation, but that means 2 things.

1. We need to note it in the OP.

2. It cannot he added to pages for obvious reasons.

Edit: Also. Again. Ghosts are magic in Type Moon. Or... "Mystery"

"If it is believed that the subject of a Mystery "exists," the World permits its existence. Definite affirmation of said belief is not required, so even though the majority of modern humans reject the existence of ghosts, modern science cannot outright demonstrate that they do not exist, and, thus, within the unconscious, there lurks the vague suspicion that "they might indeed exist." This sort of "suspicion" falls under the category of "faith." "Ignorance" is the force that opposes "faith". If the existence of ghosts is itself utterly unknown, faith cannot foment."

Then, if you look on the wiki for Wraiths and Ghosts, you would find this; "Wraith (õ║íÚ£è, Bourei?), also referred to as Ghosts (Õ╣¢Ú£è, Yürei?) or Human spirits, are souls of dead people that remain attached to this world due to past grudges, regrets and other sorts of unfinished business that they had during life. As such, they tend to haunt places, items or people that are related to their unfinished business."

Ghosts are Mysteries.

Also, his explosion punch is theoretically (using that word loosely) possible, just as being able to kick off of the air and double jump is "theoretically" possible. That's not... Magic. And it's definitely not enough to justify applying something to him just because you think "Mystery" = Cool impossible shit that lacks explanation. When I am certain that's not the case. Unless someone's gonna debunk the entire Type Moon wiki and more importantly, the actual parts I am referring to.

So, like, no. This is more like you're making appeals to a vague definition using flimsy justifications than an actual argument with valid points.
 
TLDR;

He ain't magic. Mystery means magic. Zekka has no mystery, no matter how strong he is built.
 
Assassin doesn't need to lose his dura negation, since he's likely 6-C, and HIGHER with his tiger style bs. So... If Li has the AP advantage, on top of being able to be invisible, on top of having more skill, on top of having Zekka's best move to take him down requiring both direct hits on a person he won't be able to see or maybe even touch, and his best one that would one shot killing him as well, on top of that DEFINITELY not working since if not Zekka, then his added in reactor designed to harness antimatter into punches would definitely be a weapon, I think this is a stomp.

Imma add what I posted here to my big post, so it's not a big clutter.
 
Well for the sake of the match I guess I wil restrict mystery, just cause I want a debate

Though how the hell do swords get past immunity by being old?
 
Um. They're likely "ancient" weapons? My understanding is that, even though apparently a modern day knife or something won't work (but i'm Not 110% sure, i'll check later after I finish my college work), swords and shit are weapons as a concept that are older than the modern era? I would headcanon to argue that fists, and natural weapons and powers that are biproducts of evolution, which predate the "modern era" via at worst, being offshoots of beings that existed before the modern era, are not counted as modern weapons even if they exist in modern times for similar reasons, given that "teeth" and "fists" and "bows and arrows" are all weapons that, in concept, are not comparable to modern weaponry concepts like Nukes and Guns. They are also a part of beings' bodies, so...?

But that's my interpretation.

Nasuverse is kinda like SMT in that the ability for human's to affect the world via our perception and perspective is a key part to the verse Mechanics present. So, there's like, borderline concept Manip or whatever in everything. Hence why things that humans don't believe in are erased and things that humans do believe in are permitted to exist. The spirit of humanity's will to survive, Alaya, is warping the reality of Earth to our understanding, and mages are actively fighting against the spirit of earth itself, Gaia, and ******* up reality to do shit that shouldn't be possible. It's why magic swords made by Shiro fade away. They shouldn't exist to begin with, and after the magic in them stop, they get deleted.

Anyway? I'm derailing. My bad.
 
Age=mystery in Nasu, which is why Gudako has the most mystery now ovo

Mystery is gained through either age, magic, or being outside of the realm of normality, like a computer made of moon crystals that can simulate the multiverse

That's why Arcueid, who has hundreds of years worth of mystery, is invulnerable to even magecraft which also has mystery, simply because her mystery is much higher

A sword that is hundreds of years old like Kanesada Kuji, has enough mystery to harm servants, and to passively dispel magecraft, due to the sword's mystery being on par with that of a magical item/what is needed to hurt other mysteries, and magecraft being a lower mystery respectively.

Someone being physically strong wouldn't get them mystery, in fact it would work the other way around. Take the guy who beat up Lugh for example, he was strong enough to do that due to his mystery, but when he started to lose it throughout the novel, he became physically weaker.

also side note, Katou isn't a cyborg, she's a doll
 
If Age gives something mystery, would Zakka being hundreds of years old work?

EDIT: Only 90 nvm
 
No. Because of two factors.

1. He's kinda... From a futuristic setting...? So, like, if Last order and Type Moon shared a verse, he wouldn't exist yet, unless Li was summoned to his time period to participate in some space grail war, but even then, he'd still be a "modern" weapon. This is cool. But, again, that question and this answer are delving into adding more and more stuff we need to headcanon and add to characters when this fight is literally just a fight in Time Square in NYC where none of that should be considered. SBA.

2. Even if we grant Zekka access to a verse mechanic that doesn't belong to him for the sake of it, I doubt it would even be enough. 100 years is, like, nothing. A sword might have mystery after a long period of time, but if it's just a sword, I don't see a freshly dug up archaeologically discovered random sword from some place being enough to murder a servant with.
 
No, I'm pretty sure futuristic stuff works because it's still outside our understanding. That said...

Emiya got handwaved for being a Counter Guardian, but otherwise futuristic Mystery is usually weaker.

The problem is, if Zekka is fighting in his own time, he'd be modern and have nothing in the way of Mystery.


Btw, do you understand what having a Noble Phantasm and Skill means now, Schnee? I'm sorry for presuming you were knowledged in Fate but the rest of that reply was the important bit.
 
Correct, Li doesn't really have a lot of options in actually killing or slowing Zekka down, meanwhile the two are comparable in skill, Li lost his massive AP advantage and Zekka has two forms of Durability Negation to fall back on.
 
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