Lavos vs. Madoka

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Isn't it just being erased on all levels of existence? The wording seems to me that it doesn't need to be conceptual, hence "from History, Narrative/Plot or Conceptual/Information".

 

[Dragopentling]

Yea, and that's what bothers me, cause the nature of Lavos' regen, based on what looked up in some of the game text and some Lavos-related threads, doesn't suggest he can regenerate from being undone conceptually. He only shows feats of coming back from being erased from parts of history.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

... Re-read what I said. The or implies it being conceptual isn't needed at all, or it being all of those things in the description, just being erased on all levels, which could be any of those things mentioned that I quoted.

I am not sure we would give Mid-Godly just because you got erased conceptually but not from history,

 

[Dragopentling]

Oh nvm, my bad.

But either way, it's just while Lavos does indeed show high godly feats, none of them have been indicated as coming back from conceptual yeeting. That's the issue I was trying to address.

 

[Tyri456]

lavos high godly was accepted IIRC but never applied

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Regenerationn there is the name even in high goldy user.

 

[Dragopentling]

Lavos was supposed to have kept High Godly Regen. Idk why it's at Mid Godly, tbh. Still doesn't save him from Conceptual yeet, as he's neither shown nor even hinted any evidence of resisting conceptual attacks/hax. Unless if anyone within the Chronos player party has any of such.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Someone simply forgot to do it.

Also, again, High Godly is simply regenerating from erasure on all levels of existence. Unless I am missing something, that should help him with concept erase even if it wasn't what he regenerated from.

 

[Dragopentling]

Someone simply forgot to do it.
Also, again, High Godly is simply regenerating from erasure on all levels of existence. Unless I am missing something, that should help him with concept erase even if it wasn't what he regenerated from.

But we can't simply assume he can do so. Being erased from parts of history is still a significantly different situation as opposed to getting conceptually noped out of existence. I would say otherwise if he has in-game confirmed resistance to Concept hax, because at least it would indicate that he has something of a countermeasure against said ability.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except we can. That's the whole reasoning of how the new High-Godly is written. As Sera succulently put it:

"If Mid Godly goes all the way to EE, high godly should not exist. It's completely illogical to assume erasing you on a "conceptual level" is superior to erasing you from history, reality, the narrative, etc. they are different expressions of the same thing and it is extremely rare a verse even makes a distinction that, for example, being erased from the plot > conceptual erasure > existence erasure in that precise order."

Not one or the other hold any overt or inherent superiority. It would be entirely illogical to have a character regenerate from erasure on all levels by one mean (Conceptually) just to get erased on all levels by another (narratively) and... not regenerate from the second one despite the end result being the same? If you can regen your arm, it doesn't matter whether it was sliced off, evaporated or erased on all levels, you'll still regen your arm just fine as long as no Regen negation is involved.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Not really? Cause narrative, concept, etc. are often treated as different within the same system and are far more different on a meta level. Slicing and Evaporation are both physical destruction.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The end result is getting your existence erased in all levels.

The whole point of that thread is that conceptual erase is not above being erased from history, or being erased narratively, as these things have no defined hierarchy that all fiction follows. It varies from verse to verse, but an ability is not something that should be granted in a case to case which just ends up favoring other verses needlessly because we arbitrarily put one mean above another, when the end result is the same.

The means don't matter, the end result is what matters, and the end result is erase on all levels of existence, which is what High Godly regens you from. Again, there's a reason why High Godly has or between the reasons, how the verse achieves it is never gonna be the same across all verses but the end result and what the character regens from is.

So yes, Lavos regens from that.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Of course it doesn't have a defined hierarchy. That's why we can't take one and apply it arbitrarily to all three.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

But there's no hierarchy being made. All 3 are treated equally because, and I am getting tired of repeating myself, the end result is the same - your entire existence is erased beyond the physical and metaphysical.

And you regen from that.

So it doesn't matter how it is achieved, just that you can regen from it.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Obviously there's no hierarchy being made, that's the point. It's more inaccurate and arbitrary to assume that regen from one automatically equals regen from the other without any feats to show it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

But that's not the point, you are getting yourself confused. That they aren't being put in a hierarchy means that they are treated the same. You are not even engaging the main point, that the result is what matters, not the means.

Let me be simply: It matters squat how it's done, you still regen from being erased on all levels. And no, me bringing up physical examples doesn't make it a bad analogy. Getting your arm cut off an regenerating it doesn't mean you can't when it gets vaporized instead. That's dumb.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

YOu're right, that is dumb. but that's also two examples of the same kind of destruction.


The entire point is that they shouldn't be treated the same because it leads to unjust wank like is happening right now.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

But whatever. Let's save this for the CRT and focus on what's on their profiles now, please.

 

[Dragopentling]

Zephyros has the better looking logical argument here.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Are you honest to God telling me a dude regenerating his arm after it is cut off is wank because his feat is regenerating it after it was vaporized...?

What part of "the same effect through different means" went out your other ear? Are we gonna say next a dude that has Creation and can make rock can't fill a hole made by evaporation but can for one made through EE?

Concept shit or plot shit doesn't matter, you are regenerating from the same thing, erasure on all levels of existence. What matters is the end result, not the means, and Lavos can regen from the end result.

 

[Dragopentling]

Madoka revisions were done. Lavos profile clearly needs another inspection and clarification. There's no definitive proof that tells me that Lavos can come back from conceptual yeeting. So we cannot assume he can in a matchup against another character in a completely different franchise. Especially since their respective verse mechanics are quite different.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Irrelevant, the end result is the same.

I don't wanna turn into a parrot saying the same damn thing every single time, it gets annoying.

There's nothing CRT worthy, this is how the mechanic freaking works. It is dumb to say regen at this level is limited by how it was achieved, that was the entire point of the description detailing multiple ways it can be made as an example.

Again, are any of you gonna say next you can't regen your arm being cut off but can regen it being vaporized? Are we going for this nonsense?

 

[Dragopentling]

Something just occurred to me regarding my concern for Lavos' regen, but I'd rather discuss this when more people resume discussions here, preferably anyone with more intel on Chronos Trigger.

I'll roll out with the "anything goes" for High Godly regen, though....for now.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If anything, I would exort you to try and check the thread where the changes were discussed and that ended in True-Godly being wiped off the face off the Earth.

Perhaps that could answer any issues you have.

 

[Dragopentling]

I was actually there if I remembered correctly, though most of the discussions there involved why the differences in applications for True Godly and that for High Godly didn't matter. I'm pretty sure I don't need a revisit.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Did you check them all? There were two and the second was where Sera commented and brought the formalization of the High Godly and brought up with putting conceptual or erased from story or whatever above each other is arbitrary as the end result is more or less the same, and those things have no hard hierarchy in fiction.

Anyway, I won't derail anymore. For now, seems like Lavos still regens.

 

[Dragopentling]

I actually no longer have an issue with the High Godly regen. I just remembered a little bit of stuff regarding Lavos' alleged feats of Regenerationn, and something about it concerns me, but I said I'd wait for more people with expertise on that to speak up.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

This is just basically Madoka vs UKG. She traps Lavos in the Nonexistent Multiverse through Law Manip.

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

Madoka: 1 (Beast)

Lavos: 0

 

[Gojii-san]

Shoudn't being erased from history and being erased as a concept be entirely different things? Like you can erase all water from history, but it can still be formed afterwards through natural chemical reactions while erasing the concept of water would prevent even that from happening? Or, to bring an example related to game coding, deleting all instances of an object in the whole game still lets you add it back (as is done for numerous mods and hacks regarding unused content), but deleting the actual files those instances use would completely remove it from the game.

Also, is Madokami VS Lavos like some tradition here? There are way too many of these

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Like I brought up before and as the Regenerationn page clears up, the end result is the same. The thing is erased, both in the physical and metaphysical sense, and in every level of existence.

In your game coding example, erasing it from all history would be deleting every instance, every file, and any file or record that the object and its file was ever even in your game. Just like deleting the concept.

But in some verses it is done by erasing from history and others is through concept erase and others is through erasing from the narrative. It is a super deep Existence Erasure at the end of the day.

 

[Eganergo]

Just a note, but according to Sera, regen through 'history' means a whole timeline, not just the past.

 

[Gojii-san]

The water example still works. Nothing stops it from existing again after being erased from history.

 

[Eganergo]

Yeah, I've argued about that too that this kind of regen is the weakest type of all but whatever.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It actually doesn't. Water was erased from the past, the present, and the future. If it's erased in the future, how is it gonna form again in the future?

I am getting tired of having to say again and again that it is the same end result.

 

[Gojii-san]

Is it constantly being erased from the future rather than at once?

Same result doesn't necessarily mean it's the same thing as vaporizing something and turning it into vapour directly has same result, but different means of achieving it and different requirements for resistance

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

... What's the difference?

If it was erased from the past and future, it is erased for good.

 

[Gojii-san]

...Thought of the wrong thing.

Fair enough.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Wait, Lavos doesn't have Nonexistent Physiology?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He has it from Dream Devourer, but for some weird reason is put down as Non-Corporeal.

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

He has it from Dream Devourer, but for some weird reason is put down as Non-Corporeal.

Because the profile is outdated. He should have Nonexistent Physiology.