Lavos vs Homura

[Yobo_Blue]

Upgrades and whatnot

Hopefully it's no longer a stomp

Dream Devourer Lavos vs Homura Akemi

Speed Equal

Who wins?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Homu Homu gets eaten...I should probably go into more detail.

 

[DMUA]

So many Lavos threads.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yes

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It's part of my secret plan to make a 3rd Chrono game

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Cal, any word on that detail?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. The third game is called Radical Dreamers.

Oh, you mean how Lavos wins. Right. Ovo.

 

[FateAlbane]

People just love this nightmarish matchup, huh? I dunno what others may think, so I'll just reply this as a manner of comparison since my profile on JBW legit lists "Homura Threads in General" as Notable Losses for me.

Homura tied with Falldown!Lucey when he was restricted to the Lucey in front of her.

Lavos lost to Sata!Lucey in a rather close match when this stronger form of Lucey was free to use whatever the hell he wanted to, no restrictions whatsoever on his powers.

Now if you ask me, things don't change THAT much here from Peak!DD to TD other than scale of raw power and some hax additions which are not the most important parts of its skillset. So Lavos can seriously contend and have a chance on a extremely prolonged match against an unrestricted form of Lucey that is acording to the scaling I heard about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Falldown Lucey.

All things considered, I still feel "Eeeeh", but if someone thinks otherwise, go for it, I guess?

 

[FateAlbane]

Should probably mention that Homura's Skillset also has Bad Compatibility with Lavos' Skillset by virtue of it noping and dealing with Memory Hax, eating memories for Breakfast and the fact she is a Magic User.

If this is not a stomp (which I'll let others decide whether or not, I'll elaborate reasons later).

 

[Kaltias]

@Fate

Actually, CS Satan Lucey isn't that much above CS Falldown in raw power (Like, he stomps Falldown but that's the short part of the scaling. Based on what Dragon told me, the CS cast is the second strongest after Reigitize).

Also CS Lucey has a single body which is more than enough to make the boss fight painful. Infinite bodies is True Lucey spreading its power as infinite avatars.

Just here to clarify stuff. I'm not touching this matchup, even though i find it a tad redundant and i'll stop talking about Lucemon before cal kills me

 

[FateAlbane]

That's somewhat strange, I was told in the Lavos vs Satan Lucey thread that Satan!CS Lucemon could have as many manifestations/infinite avatars as he wanted throughout space-time.

As well as that Satan >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Falldown.

 

[Kaltias]

Uh, weird. I played the quest a week ago and i'm pretty sure that the infinite manifestations is True Lucey, but i'll double check with Dragon.

Bad wording on my part. Satan>>>>Falldown yeah. I meant that it wasn't a huge factor in the Homura vs Lucey thread because even CS Kid Lucey one shots (Satan > Falldown > Kid Lucey = EoG Takumi = Mother Eater > Eater Adam > Gallantmon > Eater Eve = Crusadermon = a good deal above baseline but I don't want to go trough all the scaling ovo)

 

[FateAlbane]

That being said, I feel like this will keep popping up over and over until someone takes care of it. Since I feel confident I'm more neutral in regards to this now, I think it's safe for me to say x or y towards the characters (and do correct me if I'm wrong regarding anything on Homura here because my knowledge on Wraith arc is not up to date).

I'll talk more about the compatibility of the skillsets and why I feel iffy about the match:

Power Drain is good and all but the problem is that Peak!DD's absorption caps at Zeed Levels. Conceptual Split she used to tie with Lucemon, welp... If Homura were to eventually split DD and fight its base form that would not affect the Acausal alternates scattered across the infinite timelines, so the match simply resumes with whatever alternates whenever that happens.

Now comes a point I talked about on the Daemon thread:

"1. Isn't Daemon a user of magic? If so he'll have a hell of a time against TD since Lavos can passively absorb magic (not just spells, Magic energy directly from the enemy if they have it) ever since Base, and was the one responsible for actually creating it in Chrono." ...Being absorption, this scales to the same feats (can absorb Serge+CC if given the chance to) as well, meaning Homura will be facing Drain on Zeed Lvls throughout the entire match while making the thing stronger. And will be even more drained whenever she strikes as DD at this point has a passive counter of draining the energy from the enemy who strikes on top of the passive absorption.

On Homura's side, no Soul means the broken "Soul to Sleep that worked on 2-A through a small fraction of its power" hax is out of the table.

She has Conceptual Manip on her side that Lavos lacks. Lavos on the other hand has Existence + Non Existence Erasure added to whatever it does (they literally have a cutscene for when they nuked non-existence (the Res Nullius) using the power of a fragment of the thing ).

Memory Manip is something that DD is constantly doing to Schala and is also something that FATE, who is baseline 2-A does as a plot point in Cross through channeling Lavos' powers with the FF, still it couldn't do so to Harle or Lavos itself and got outsmarted as a result. So I assume if Homura goes that way they would be in a thug of war with poor Schala in the center? ROFL

I'm not saying Homura would lose the competition on the Memory Department, myself, but dunno if she can be memory haxxing all the dupes at once and assuming she does get it through to one, the others would be aware of what happened to the first and presumably be ready to counter it with their own from that moment onwards.

Now Homura existing as a Concept is something that makes me uncertain as I don't know the extent of that. DD!Lavos can, as I said in the other thread, interact and delete things as immaterial as: Thoughts, Memories, Dreams (which work in quite the abstract level on the Chrono Series as even the Planet, "the Entity" have "Dreams of their own" despite not being human nor existing in the same sense as the characters), space-time, erased space-time and beings that were erased from existence.

This is a good bunch of stuff on the non-corporeal department, so while I have serious doubts Lavos can simply erase Homura, I feel more inclined to believe Absorption may eventually work (dunno how long it takes) considering the scale and that's how it originally beat Madoka way back then?

This is all an analysis I made thinking about it and may be not complete considering that, again, my current knowledge on Wraith Arc is VERY limited.

 

[SomebodyData]

How often does Lavos eat people's memories? Also Homura should be able to memory manip Lavos dupes passively.

 

[FateAlbane]

He does it all the time actually. Same as how in Base he is always eating the Planet.

He shows it Mid-Battle as well as some automatic attack that is triggered on you.

I guess memories are more tasty or something. Kinda like the Necrons with Souls .

 

[SomebodyData]

Oh, in that case, Homura's power possesses Lavos gg

 

[FateAlbane]

Depends on how that works and the infinite dupes.

 

[SomebodyData]

Basically, in the Wraith Arc it was discovered that if a Crystalized Magical Girl has her memories / power absorbed or eaten in this case, it either possesses the user or just goes back to the CMG.

In all seriousness, Homura's mind manip probably can affect all of the dupes (Given that Madoka's body literally is compromised of all the magical girls she has saved, according to the Rebellion Production Notes)

 

[FateAlbane]

Looking at the mechanics on the profile alone I'm relatively sure Homura's power is not winning the dispute and possessing Lavos past its absorption on every single duplicate when the feats it has on this particular hax make it scale to Serge + CC + FF which is quite literally tailor made to OBLITERATE it in oneshot + using Lavos' own power against it with the FF.

They also needed the Chrono Cross + Frozen Flame to be splitting the last thing Lavos absorbed from it (Schala). Which at this point is hax high enough in scale of 2-A to oneshot Lavos as TD or be "possibly High 2-A".

I also mentioned above that Lavos can counter Memory Hax, I'm guessing they're even on this department.

 

[SomebodyData]

It doesn't have to be on power alone (Unless Homura uses this opportunity to power drain the rest of the Lavos in surprise, in which case oh no.)

Ok, not sure why that matters when I'm arguing abilities, not potency.

Yes, but I don't see it on his profile? Nor did you provide examples.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Schala actively attempting to hold Lavos back while still in the process of being absorbed, mattered practically nil, so I don't see Homura coming close to possessing him.

 

[SomebodyData]

Why are you comparing absorption to possessing? That's probably why... Also 99% sure that Schala wasn't possessing Lavos there.

 

[FateAlbane]

You mean Memory Hax?

It's what it used to stay on a perpetual thug of War against Schala, so she ended up as some magical girl torn between saving everything and obliterating everything.

He also scales to FATE who memory manipulated everyone in the timeline it hails from across the eras to prevent anyone from taking one step that would result in anyone creating whatever time paradox, sans Lavos itself at this point. FATE did so through the power of the Frozen Flame, which is a fragment of Lavos.

Said feat worked on the entire main cast of the game but not on Schalavos who went "You know, I'll save this one boy here just because he's drowning and he's cute even if that means creating the Paradox of Paradoxes.", doing exactly what FATE wanted to avoid. Harle, who is basically a Dragon God created by Lavos, also noped said feat while again, the rest of the cast who can contend with her and the TD was affected.

Now I'm not saying Lavos will go "Nope!" for Homura's memory hax like "whatever". Just that it has feats around the same scale to compete. Hence why I said "guess they would be on some thug of war with poor Schala on the center".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because she can't possess it without it attempting to eat her first, or at least that's what I got from you.

 

[SomebodyData]

1. That doesn't quite mean anything.

2. That feat is very, very low tier compared to Homura's. And not even resistance.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Real Cal yeah, that has nothing to do with what you said earlier tho? (Referring to memory eating, not eating eating.)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Didn't Homura just mind screw one person? Granted, that one person is Godoka, but given her opponent, that's still unimpressive.

 

[FateAlbane]

Ok, not sure why that matters when I'm arguing abilities, not potency.

I mentioned that because they basically needed a hax on the scale of 2-A that should be high enough to oneshot Lavos to actually overwhelm its own power of absorption and split something he had absorbed from it - that alone wasn't enough and they channeled its own power against it on top of that throughout the battle. Hence why I doubt Homura's possession is working that easily.

The implication would be that Homura's possession >>>>>> Frozen Flame, Serge, Chrono Cross combined in scale to actually overwhelm the scale at which Lavos' Absorption works.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cal read the part where I stated Godoka was comprised of the souls of the magical girls from infinite universes.

@Fate It doesn't overwhelm his power of absorption or split, it doesn't deal with either of those. Its why its considered as an unconventional resistance.

No? Different abilities don't directly compare to each other.

 

[FateAlbane]

2. That feat is very, very low tier compared to Homura's. And not even resistance.

So you skipped through the part where I said it worked on the entire cast of the same game that is full of 2-As sans Lavos related people? Mkay.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That...doesn't mean anything. She didn't soul screw Madoka, she mind screwed her.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Fate It doesn't overwhelm his power of absorption or split, it doesn't deal with either of those. Its why its considered as an unconventional resistance.

No? Different abilities don't directly compare to each other.

Yes. The moment whatever from her gets absorbed she'll be needing something on that scale to actually bring it back. It's simple logic. When comparing hax, we compare feats and scale. Scale and feats of Lavos' absorption outclasses Homura.

Doesn't help at all that Homura's hax only works after it was already absorbed.

 

[SomebodyData]

Akuma Homura >>>>>(Homulily manipulating Godoka) Infinite souls combined in a 2-A being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manipulating cast of 2-A beings.

 

[FateAlbane]

By the same logic you're saying she comes back from a hax that is >>>>>>>>> in scale I could say she nopes drain from YHVH.

 

[FateAlbane]

Akuma Homura >>>>>(Homulily manipulating Godoka) Infinite souls combined in a 2-A being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manipulating cast of 2-A beings.

Your "scaling" basically assumes Homura and her hax is suddenly around SMT lvls of 2-A.

SD, please.

 

[Kaltias]

Akuma Homura >>>>> Homulilly who mindscrewed a 2-A. The infinite people that got absorbed are 3-D. So mindscrewing Madoka means mindscrewing a single 2-A

 

[FateAlbane]

See, this I believe.

 

[FateAlbane]

I'd like to point out that I didn't vote myself, either. I was just skimming through their powersets and comparing for the sake of it. I have no vote to give.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cal said souls weren't mindless, if that's what you think. They can even take physical form (Sayaka and Nagisa for example), so its pretty obvious they still have their minds.

@Fate going one post at a time.

1. "she'll be needing something on that scale to actually bring it back."

Homura doesn't bring it back. The power manifests itself. Also, like I said, it doesn't work against the flow of the drain. It resides there and once the drain is over it comes out. Not that it matters, I already mentioned it would possess first.

2 and 3. SMT scaling is significantly larger than that. Additionally, the scaling doesn't consider her AP, just the mind hax in comparison to her 7-B form. Arguing from incredulity is a fallacy anyway, so I'm not sure what's with your point.

 

[FateAlbane]

1. They're not possessing nor coming out for the simple reason that the scale of the being and the feats they are trying to possess or split - as you worded it, "come out from" - is higher than their best.

Simple as that. Same reason why Madoka can't just go and be given "she erases Nicol Bolas conceptually on the go" in a match. I'm suddenly getting the impression you're overestimating Homura and saying "Nope" to whatever Lavos has on his end at the same time.

2 and 3. I referred to how you think of her feat as "that high above Memory Haxxing an entire cast of 2-As for ages until another stronger 2-A - Lavos - came along and decided to mess it all up". Which really isn't when said feat was made via Frozen Flame which is a mere fragment of the thing's power.

My other point is that infinite souls matters 0 in 2-A scales.