Lavos vs Arceus

[Moritzva]

Game mechanics. Not the same in the anime and manga which nulls abilities in general, not specific.

No, they work the same way, as I proved above.

It nullifies abilities that will prevent the attack from being used. No?

That's literally what I said. If you want more details, read the wiki, it's not long. I also explained in further detail above in this thread.

And yes, specifics are game mechanics

What?

The manga follows the games and yes, mold breaker nullifies ability and not specific ones

What? Seriously, you're not explaining anything. What do you even mean?

Yes. Mold Breaker does exactly what it's described
Null abilities that will prevent its use

Not in the way you represented. It is not power null of all abilities, period, and no evidence has been provided that says so. It only nullifies the ones that would interfere with it's attacks. If you agree with this, then why are you arguing?

Eternatus does that

Provide evidence!

It's evidence you disregard anyway

Provide evidence!

Sorry, I posted early, so the message looked scuffed earlier.

 

[Sniper670]

K.

 

[Sniper670]

Let's go back to the debate shall we

 

[Moritzva]

Can we actually go back to the debate now?
You're derailing with irrelevant comments

I am pointing out your lies and misinformation. You have provided no evidence for power null for Eternatus (which I am willing to buy as legitimate with the assumption that you could provide evidence) and Dynamax in-general (which I don't believe is true and would like to evidence for), and your claims that either are 'above' Mold Breaker is untrue.

You can proceed with the debate, but let all sides know that Yemma has failed to prove any points on power null whatsoever and it cannot be treated as anything impressive.

Also, I'm giving you a warning for being rude and combative over a debate, especially when you are blatantly misrepresenting facts and refusing to back up any of your points. Claiming I'm derailing for asking for evidence is, to say the least, a little silly. Don't do it again, and try to debate properly.

 

[Sniper670]

I am pointing out your lies and misinformation. You have provided no evidence for power null for Eternatus (which I am willing to buy as legitimate with the assumption that you could provide evidence) and Dynamax in-general (which I don't believe is true and would like to evidence for), and your claims that either are 'above' Mold Breaker is untrue.

You can proceed with the debate, but let all sides know that Yemma has failed to prove any points on power null whatsoever and it cannot be treated as anything impressive.

Also, I'm giving you a warning for being rude and combative over a debate, especially when you are blatantly misrepresenting facts and refusing to back up any of your points. Claiming I'm derailing for asking for evidence is, to say the least, a little silly. Don't do it again, and try to debate properly.

It's on his page.

Now go read it.

 

[Moritzva]

It's on his page.

Now go read it.

For one, this battle isn't even using Eternatus, you can't bring up the pages and abilities of different characters not in the debate and expect that to fly without explanation.

For two, I did, there's no source and there sure aren't any scans. Same with the Dynamax page. Have you read either?

 

[Sniper670]

1. Everyone in Pokéverse sources power from Arceus. Proving once again, your ignorance

Then make a crt to remove it.. I know where it comes from but I lost the scans.

It passively nulled everything until Dog trio powered up

 

[Moritzva]

1. Everyone in Pokéverse sources power from Arceus. Proving once again, your ignorance

Then make a crt to remove it.. I know where it comes from but I lost the scans.

It passively nulled everything until Dog trio powered up

1. I'm warning you a second time, cut the sass. You missed the point. Eternatus isn't the fighter, and his profile isn't linked. If you are using a character like Arceus, you need to actually explain what the other characters do.

2. "you lost the scans" Seriously? I'm not even unwilling to believe that Eternatus, specifically, does that, but lying and saying Mold Breaker/Teravolt have anything to do with it, and lying and saying Dynamax in-general nullifies abilities, is incredibly dishonest. If you don't even have evidence for one Pokemon having the nullification, how can you confidently claim that all Dynamax have it, and that all Dynamax nullify Mold Breaker and Teravolt, and that Mold Breaker and Teravolt do things they don't do?

I'm not sure if you should be calling anyone else in this room 'ignorant', sir.

 

[Sniper670]

1. I'm warning you a second time, cut the sass. You missed the point. Eternatus isn't the fighter, and his profile isn't linked. If you are using a character like Arceus, you need to actually explain what the other characters do.

I linked the power null chain no?

2. "you lost the scans" Seriously? I'm not even unwilling to believe that Eternatus, specifically, does that, but lying and saying Mold Breaker/Teravolt have anything to do with it, and lying and saying Dynamax in-general nullifies abilities, is incredibly dishonest.

Look at the Dynamax page and yes. There is a chain.
You can keep saying they are lies

If you don't even have evidence for one Pokemon having the nullification, how can you confidently claim that all Dynamax have it, and that all Dynamax nullify Mold Breaker and Teravolt, and that Mold Breaker and Teravolt do things they don't do?

Eternatus has it, there's also Mold Breaker and Teravolt

 

[Listentomyrhytm]

cringe MU

 

[Moritzva]

I linked the power null chain no?

Look at the Dynamax page and yes. There is a chain.
You can keep saying they are lies

Eternatus has it, there's also Mold Breaker and Teravolt

Provide evidence! I've asked you over ten times to provide evidence, none of this is evidence! Provide actual scans, provide actual sources, and stop saying "look at the pages" when you, yourself admitted that you don't have the scans. The pages don't have them either. You can't base an argument off of an ability if you can't even get or name the source the ability is from.

Provide evidence. End of story. If you can't do that, go find evidence or delete the abilities.

I advise all opponents of Yemma in this thread and all people not knowledgeable on Pokemon to not believe a word Yemma says until he provides scans to back them up, since clearly he can't be trusted to represent or display abilities in a clear and honest manner.

 

[Sniper670]

Do I need to prove myself?

Everything is on Arceus page?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Do I need to prove myself?

Yes

 

[Moritzva]

Do I need to prove myself?

Everything is on Arceus page?

Yes, you do indeed need to prove yourself. That is objectively and absolutely the entire point of a debate.

 

[Sniper670]

Let's me break it down what I meant

"I don't need to prove myself because it's on Arceus profile"

 

[Tllmbrg]

Bro she literally argued that what you're talking about isn't on the page
Are you blind?

 

[Sniper670]

Bro she literally argued that what you're talking about isn't on the page
Are you blind?

TF.

It's all on his profile. If anyone is blind then he is.

'Nuff said

 

[Moritzva]

Let's me break it down what I meant

"I don't need to prove myself because it's on Arceus profile"

There are no scans of power null on the Eternatus or Dynamaxing pages.

Also, I'm a girl.

Also, provide evidence, because they aren't on the pages. If you read the pages, you'd know that.

 

[Sniper670]

Oh, so your issue is that you don't see scans.

So where did I lie exactly

 

[Moritzva]

Oh, so your issue is that you don't see scans.

So where did I lie exactly

I asked for evidence. You provided no evidence, and continued to lie and present your narrative as fact. That is, at best, a flat lie.

 

[deonment]

No it does, Sealing stops said ghosts from going to the afterlife in media a lot of time as well, so this doesn’t help at all

It needs feats to do so, and this is beyond that, assuming that it just does so without any statements of feats of such a showing is simply not something that we do, and as such this point is moot

So somehow Lavos now resists Arceus’s Powernull

Yes actually, as not only do we not consider power nulls nullifying/superseding each other as actual layers for power null, we (to my knowledge) never have, and shouldn't unless this is a really specific case of something, so yeah Lavos resists the meaningful power nullification

Needs higher level BDE, Type 1 doesn’t mean anything to Arceus, and Arceus can bypass BDE regardless

1) No one in pokemon has any type of BDE bar the Original Spirit itself
2)Not it can't, what time will you stop for it, it has none because if you were to take a glance at the Time Devourer key, not only was it erased wholly from the timeline but it also wholly lacks dreams, the fundamental substance of reality which has time as something that it composes, so it does not bypass the BDE on multiple regards

Literally none of that makes it beyond baseline.
Being beyond baseline needs specific context and feats, being stated to be beyond the multiverse is meaningless on its own.

Well then make a CRT because as it currently is that is what is accepted on the profile, and this debate serves no purpose as you are debating against accepted statistics, so I shall no longer be responding to this line discussion, either make a CRT or drop the subject on this thread.

 

[deonment]

On the topic of the power null, Arceus Upscales from Eternamax Eternatus, who has this effect on Pokemon which stops them from using moves, or dynamaxing

 

[Moritzva]

On the topic of the power null, Arceus Upscales from Eternamax Eternatus, who has this effect on Pokemon which stops them from using moves, or dynamaxing

****, finally.

And there's no evidence that says all Dynamax does this, that it affects passive abilities, or that it has anything to do with Mold Breaker or similar, correct?

 

[deonment]

****, finally.

And there's no evidence that says all Dynamax does this, that it affects passive abilities, or that it has anything to do with Mold Breaker or similar, correct?

Dynamax stops this list of effects, but there is no actual explanation for why it does so in-universe so these could possibly/likely be dismissed as power null and should instead be resistance as although they are not affected they do not stop the moves themselves from occurring like with Eternamax, and no it has no effect on passive abilities that are not listed in the above, and the closest thing it has to a mold breaker like effect is still doing partial damage through protect and detect, but that is noted to be due to the sheer power of MAX attacks rather than a property of the Dynamaxed mons themselves.

 

[Moritzva]

Dynamax stops this list of effects, but there is no actual explanation for why it does so in-universe so these could possibly/likely be dismissed as power null and should instead be resistance as although they are not affected they do not stop the moves themselves from occurring like with Eternamax, and no it has no effect on passive abilities that are not listed in the above, and the closest thing it has to a mold breaker like effect is still doing partial damage through protect and detect, but that is noted to be due to the sheer power of MAX attacks rather than a property of the Dynamaxed mons themselves.

Yeah, none of those effects include Mold Breaker, an extensive list of abilities, or anything outside of a scant few effects.

Serious work needs to be done to the Dynamax pages.

We can probably progress with the debate, now. Arceus should only scale up from Eternatus' power null alone, and even Eternatus' passive power null is only enough to stop the active use of abilities.

 

[deonment]

Yeah, Lavos resists the passive null, can't actually put down Arceus, the same thing with Arceus, not enough range to hit Lavos if it decides to camp, but even outside of that cant put Lavos down, so this is likely a fat incon

 

[Abstractions]

Mold Breaker and Teravolt

They do not ignore every ability, stuff like Magic Guard isn't ignored.

Importantly, they don't negate moves either, so while Levitate can be negated, things like Magnet Rise will not be, and this null they have isn't exactly exuding at all times, it only occurs on their attack. So the ability still functions after that fact.

 

[theultimate5105]

It needs feats to do so, and this is beyond that, assuming that it just does so without any statements of feats of such a showing is simply not something that we do, and as such this point is moot

Already does, it traps them, you need proof that he can escape being trapped

Yes actually, as not only do we not consider power nulls nullifying/superseding each other as actual layers for power null, we (to my knowledge) never have, and shouldn't unless this is a really specific case of something, so yeah Lavos resists the meaningful power nullification

Lol no Arceus’s specifically works on everything in Pokemon, including stuff which flat out resists powernull

Also yes Nulling Powernull which also effects your own powernull means you are superior

1) No one in pokemon has any type of BDE bar the Original Spirit itself
2)Not it can't, what time will you stop for it, it has none because if you were to take a glance at the Time Devourer key, not only was it erased wholly from the timeline but it also wholly lacks dreams, the fundamental substance of reality which has time as something that it composes, so it does not bypass the BDE on multiple regards

Arceus can effect a dimension which is BDE
Stuff outside of time means nothing here. Same with existing outside of concepts even Dialga can time hax Giratina who exists outside the concept of time.

Well then make a CRT because as it currently is that is what is accepted on the profile, and this debate serves no purpose as you are debating against accepted statistics, so I shall no longer be responding to this line discussion, either make a CRT or drop the subject on this thread.

Lol no it isn’t you keep saying it is accepted yet nowhere on the profile has it been accepted

 

[Jinsye]

I don't think you get to decide on what's been accepted or not without a CRT buddy

 

[deonment]

Already does, it traps them, you need proof that he can escape being trapped

You need proof that it stops a natural process from occurring, which doesn't exist

Lol no Arceus’s specifically works on everything in Pokemon, including stuff which flat out resists powernull

Also yes Nulling Powernull which also effects your own powernull means you are superior

if only those resistances were 4D, they aren't, so no layers

No, it doesn't, that isn't how layers of power null work, power nulling power null doesn't make your power null better, we are not giving YuGiOh and MTG infinite layers of power null resistance and potency.

Arceus can effect a dimension which is BDE
Stuff outside of time means nothing here. Same with existing outside of concepts even Dialga can time hax Giratina who exists outside the concept of time.

Affecting something like that is different from time haxing it, just because you can touch a soul doesn't mean you can matter manip it
It isn't existing outside of it, its wholly lacking it, you cannot timehax something that doesn't have the time to hax, Lavos in this key for all intents and purposes has Acasuality type 2 but better since it includes the present moment too

 

[theultimate5105]

You need proof that it stops a natural process from occurring, which doesn't exist

You need to prove said process escapes sealing

if only those resistances were 4D, they aren't, so no layers

Unfortunatly the plates make them layers into 4-D

No, it doesn't, that isn't how layers of power null work, power nulling power null doesn't make your power null better, we are not giving YuGiOh and MTG infinite layers of power null resistance and potency.

Yeah it really does when both Powernulls are attempting to null each other the one that wins gets a layer on the other
They would not get infinite layers from this unless you used circular scaling chains

Affecting something like that is different from time haxing it, just because you can touch a soul doesn't mean you can matter manip it
It isn't existing outside of it, its wholly lacking it, you cannot timehax something that doesn't have the time to hax, Lavos in this key for all intents and purposes has Acasuality type 2 but better since it includes the present moment too

He can effect it using space-time hax
Yes it really is, It exists in the opposite dimension without the concepts of time and space. Also you can timehax something without time its called making them effected by it
Yeah that really is irrelevant

 

[Jinsye]

Not sure why we're arguing the Distortion World freezing Lavos. Giratina isn't frozen by it and they have basically the same existence

 

[theultimate5105]

Not sure why we're arguing the Distortion World freezing Lavos. Giratina isn't frozen by it and they have basically the same existence

No I am really not
Sealing in the distortion world is a single type of sealing, I am combining it with others like power sealing as well as some other hax.

 

[Sniper670]

Not sure why we're arguing the Distortion World freezing Lavos. Giratina isn't frozen by it and they have basically the same existence

Because he's has absolute Control over that place. Of course he won't be affected. He also allows people to go there

It can be a Chaotic place if he wants it to be

 

[Sniper670]

Anyway. Can someone give me a reason as to why Arceus doesn't beat this guy senseless?