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Krillin Downgrade

@Jeune

Most definitely. That's why I said at the very least Saitama will get to Planet Level/ Large Planet Level. He's likely going to exceed that in my opinion but we have to wait.
 
I think something is wrong because the destructo disk doesn't really ignore durability or else Cell head would have been gone, After the saiyan saga i think Krillin and Tien went throught the same training as Goku with King Kai and after they came to Namek he got his power awakening. So for him to cut second form frieza tail he would have to be at a power close enough to hurt him as you can seehe couldn't even hurt Cell because of how weak he was and also because Cell power outclassed Krillin. Why do you think frieza dodged the attack, so for him to even hurt a small star level character is more than enough proof for him to be Large planet level with destructo disk.
 
GTgokussj4 said:
I think something is wrong because the destructo disk doesn't really ignore durability or else Cell head would have been gone, After the saiyan saga i think Krillin and Tien went throught the same training as Goku with King Kai and after they came to Namek he got his power awakening. So for him to cut second form frieza tail he would have to be at a power close enough to hurt him as you can seehe couldn't even hurt Cell because of how weak he was and also because Cell power outclassed Krillin. Why do you think frieza dodged the attack, so for him to even hurt a small star level character is more than enough proof for him to be Large planet level with destructo disk.
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Nulmber 1: The scene with Krillin using the destructo disk against perfect cell is an anime only scene. Krillin's dd ignores durability, Krillin was not even close to 2nd form Frieza. And also Frieza is a star buster only in his final form. He absolutely can't star bust in his 2nd form. If frieza dodged, it's not because Krillin was close to his level or something. It's just because destructo disk ingores durability. Why do you think they needed Piccolo against Frieza 2nd form if Krillin was close to Frieza's level (according to you)? That makes no sense at all! Especially with both Vegeta and Gohan being stronger than Krillin.

Number 2: Krillin NEVER trained with king kai.
 
Jeune fou said:
Nulmber 1: The scene with Krillin using the destructo disk is an anime only scene. Krillin's dd ignores durability, Krillin was not even close to 2nd form Frieza. And also Frieza is a star buster only in his final form. He absolutely can't star bust in his 2nd form. If frieza dodged, it's not because Krillin was close to his level or something. It's just because destructo disk ingores durability. Why do you think they needed Piccolo against Frieza 2nd form if Krillin was close to Frieza's level (according to you)? That makes no sense at all! Especially with both Vegeta and Gohan being stronger than Krillin.
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Number 2: Krillin NEVER trained with king kai.
1) Krillin wasn't close to Frieza but don't they accept kai as canon here too and Frieza recent feat with him destroying planet vegeta was in Dragon Ball Super and it was calculated to be small star level in his first form.

2) That was my mistake, i remembered a scan with some of the z fighters training with king kai.
 
@Jeune Fou: Before anything, let me say that you are correct, and that, indeed, that scene is non-canon, and also, that Kienzan's specialty is to hurt opponents far more powerful than the user.

The HOW of it is where I disagree. Allow me to present my point:

Kienzan does not ignore durability. Attacks that ignore durability are ones that: Attack the atoms directly (For physical entities in 3-D.), Attack the soul directly, Attack the target's concept of "them" directly, Slice or break space-time (only relevant for 3-dimensional entities.), Attacks with properties of selective intangibilty (Again, only for 3-D entities.), blah blah some other really hax abilities.

The reason why Kienzan can injure entities far more powerful than the user is due to Ki concentration.

It's pretty much a fact that in DB, concentrating Ki in one point can produce miraculous results. Case in point: Goku concentrating his Ki in his index finger made it durable enough to whistand a barrage from Trunks who curbstomped Mecha Frieza, Mecha Frieza > Final Form Frieza. Had Goku not concentrated his Ki into that finger it would have been shredded into microscopic bits. Why? That's because DBZ characters have a case of split durability. Their resistance to piercing and cutting Attacks is far inferior to their resistance towards blunt force and energy attacks. Case in point: SSGSS being pierced by a laser from a mook's laser gun (Even if he had his guard down, Goku is AT LEAST Planet-Level at BASE, even if Beerus stated that his Base < FF Frieza.), fodder Yajirobe cutting off SS Vegeta's tail, among other instances.

So yeah. Ki concentration. Kienzan is an attack where the user concentrates their Ki into a flat disc. If it ignored durability then we would have Krillin one-shotting God Saints, which we know would never happen.
 
SpecN said:
They don't have to agree, Faisal.
Click to expand...
Usually they don't, because it probably doesn't exist at all...
 
SpecN said:
@Jeune Fou: Before anything, let me say that you are correct, and that, indeed, that scene is non-canon, and also, that Kienzan's specialty is to hurt opponents far more powerful than the user.
The HOW of it is where I disagree. Allow me to present my point:

Kienzan does not ignore durability. Attacks that ignore durability are ones that: Attack the atoms directly (For physical entities in 3-D.), Attack the soul directly, Attack the target's concept of "them" directly, Slice or break space-time (only relevant for 3-dimensional entities.), Attacks with properties of selective intangibilty (Again, only for 3-D entities.), blah blah some other really hax abilities.

The reason why Kienzan can injure entities far more powerful than the user is due to Ki concentration.

It's pretty much a fact that in DB, concentrating Ki in one point can produce miraculous results. Case in point: Goku concentrating his Ki in his index finger made it durable enough to whistand a barrage from Trunks who curbstomped Mecha Frieza, Mecha Frieza > Final Form Frieza. Had Goku not concentrated his Ki into that finger it would have been shredded into microscopic bits. Why? That's because DBZ characters have a case of split durability. Their resistance to piercing and cutting Attacks is far inferior to their resistance towards blunt force and energy attacks. Case in point: SSGSS being pierced by a laser from a mook's laser gun (Even if he had his guard down, Goku is AT LEAST Planet-Level at BASE, even if Beerus stated that his Base < FF Frieza.), fodder Yajirobe cutting off SS Vegeta's tail, among other instances.

So yeah. Ki concentration. Kienzan is an attack where the user concentrates their Ki into a flat disc. If it ignored durability then we would have Krillin one-shotting God Saints, which we would never happen.
Click to expand...
For the concentration to increase defense it was indeed already in the db manga for example Yajirobe who cutted Vegeta's tail. But even more flagrant with Vegeta lowering his defense on purpose (during the battle against Frieza) to allow Krillin to severely injure him (Vegeta wanted a zenkai boost).

Krillin admitted he could never hurt Vegeta otherwise.

Anyway about the lazer thing I hope (I haven't watched fukkatsu no F arc) they'll explain that with something like "Frieza charged one of his ki attacks in Sorbet's weapon". Because it's really ridiculous.

Anyway one thing is certain about Krillin's dd: it allows him to hurt opponents who are way stronger than him, maybe not against everyone but it's effective against most of characters (however, a way stronger opponent can dodge it because his speed will be superior). It could have worked against Nappa and it worked against Frieza (however, we indeed don't know if it all really ignore durability)

About the "base Goku < ff Frieza", I think it's a strategy (Beerus wanted to provoke Goku).

Because when you think about it. Piccolo fused with Kami is way stronger than a SSJ in the beginning of the android saga (because his level is = to android 17). And SSJ are stronger than Namek Frieza. Also, even after he trained in the hyperbolic time chamber before the cell game and even after 7 years of training before buu (unlike Gohan, Piccolo most likely continued to train), Piccolo was still affraid of supreme Kai and said SK was a lot stronger than himself. But SK is a lot weaker than any SSJ in buu saga. Also SK said he could "kill Frieza with one punch". So for me it's hard to believe Base Goku < ff frieza, when you know Goku SSJ could easily win against someone who can one shot frieza with a single punch.
 
Eh, I suppose it was just yet another inconsistent statement, Dragonball is infamous for those. Or maybe Goku was lowering his PL in base.

Otherwise, we're clearly on the same page here.
 
SpecN, you just contradicted yourself bro, If DB characters have "split" durability then Goku's finger would be in 1000 pieces, and don't give me that he focused all his energy in his finger because it was never stated that they can consentrate their Ki into a single spot to avoid damage from focused attacks.
 
If the destructo disk ignores durability then how it ''phased'' through Cell's neck when he first reached his perfect form? DD has its limits on what it can and cannot cut through.
 
MeruemNYC22 said:
If the destructo disk ignores durability then how it phased through Cell's neck when he first reached his perfect form? DD has its limits on what it can and cannot cut through.
Click to expand...
No, it definitely cut through him. However, unlike Frieza, Cell has near immediate Regenerationn, and a thin slice through his body could be healed like nothing.
 
EDIT: Read my post below.

Now that the topic at hand has been settled, I'd like to briefly discuss something, although, I'm not quite fond of being crucified, so please be patient with me and no snarkiness, as this is a genuine question.

Why is Saiyan Saga Vegeta Planet-Level? Statements made by oneself in shounen manga are usually not that reliable, if they weren't, Boros would have been accepted as Planet-Level long ago.

So let's look at power-levels. We know that power-levels were only legit up to Namek Saga. Here's a list of the official power-levels: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_power_levels

Raditz' power-level is 1200. SS Vegeta's power-level is 24000 when using Galick Gun by virtue of matching Kaioken x3 Goku. 24000/1200 = 20

Raditz is generally accepted as Moon-Level. Here, he is listed as Moon-Level+ with a calc, but that calc is outdated by nearly 4 years and the pages it links to, which are the basis of the calc, are invalid except for one that talks about the mass of the moon and a projectile motion calculator.

As per the attack potency chart here, if you're low-end Moon-Level, you need to be 4000 times stronger in order to be low-end Planet-Level, but since the attack potency chart is being redone, I'll use the values provided by the OBD wiki.

http://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/wiki-rules/13-general-obd-terms/80-destructive-capacity

Moon-Level = 29 exatons.

Planet-level = 57.3 zettatons.

57.3/0.029 = 1976

So you need to destroy our moon 1976 over in order to be Planet-Level.

So in order for SS Vegeta to be Planet-Level, Raditz would have to be Small Planet-Level.

So there's two paths here.

Either someone does a calc for Piccolo's Beam that would put Raditz at Small Planet-Level, OR, we have something to go by that would make Vegeta's statement legit.
 
Actually I just figured that power-levels have always been bullshit, right from the start. The Farmer with a shotgun had a power-level of 5, so by that logic, comparing his power-level to Raditz' power-level of 1200, the Farmer is like continent-level.

So either power-levels are complete bullshit, OR, there's a formula we don't know of that would make the difference between power-levels exponential.

So you know what? ignore my comparison to Raditz. Is there anything that would make Vegeta's statement legit? I mean, the difference between Moon-Level and Planet-Level is still massive.
 
power levels are numbers, the higher number = more power

in order to make a relation, it will be a complex funtion, or a relation made of different funtions on different intervals, so mathematcal clculation of power based on power levels is useless
 
power levels are bullshit, they don't follow any real mathematical function. it was random numbers made by toriyama for frieza's army only. Toriyama himself scrapped those nonsensical numbers after namek saga.
 
@Azathoth So, again, is there something that supports Vegeta's statement? Because scaling from Raditz isn't enough, due to the size of the gap between Moon-Level and Planet-level.
 
SpecN said:
@Azathoth So, again, is there something that supports Vegeta's statement? Because scaling from Raditz isn't enough, due to the size of the gap between Moon-Level and Planet-level.
Click to expand...
I don't know? Do you know how long it's been since I watched/read the Saiyan Saga? I wasn't arguing in favor of it, so you should probably ask someone else for more info.
 
Yeah Moon level saiyan saga Vegeta confirmed...:v.

what's next Sub-Human level Ultimate Gohan because he couldn't catch the Portara earing?
 
You forgot Pebble-Level SSJ Goku. Besides, why IS SS Vegeta Planet-level? You have to destroy around 2000 Moons in order to be Planet-Level, so you can't scale him off Raditz, and statements made by one-self in shounen manga, especially by the big bad of the arc, are usually not reliable. Case in point: Boros. So unless there's something that legitimizes Vegeta's statement, I can't see him as Planet-Level in Saiyan Saga.
 
^Boros statement is invalid since nobody is OPM has even busted a moon. A weaker Roshi and Piccolo busted the moon in DB before Vegeta gave his statement about busting earth. OPM is very few actual feats, kindly use another example
 
Like i said, next thing on this wiki will be Sub human speed for DB's top tiers, and Moon level Saiyan saga characters, core busting frieza 100%, and half planet level beerus :v
 
@Faisal Roshi's feat has been debunked as an outlier time and time again for like 7 years now, you can't use it.

Even if I don't use Boros as an example, how many villains in manga claim that they can detsroy the world but never actually do so? Yeah. If all SS Vegeta has going for him is that one statement with nothing to support it (Remember, Destruction of 1976 Moons = Planet-Level.) then he really should be downgraded.
 
That is really the stupidest thing i ever heard, Then Piccolo should be Moon level in the 23rd budokai too since they didn't gain much power as stated by Goku who didn't train much between the 23rd and BOZ so yeah small gain powerlevel means a big gain in Attack potency.
 
Roshi's feat being an outlier is the stupidest thing you've ever heard? Alright. Go and make a thread about it on this board right now, because Roshi is not Moon-level on this wiki.
 
Roshi's feat is considered an outlier because not too long after, he was casually murdered by a guy who was city level.

I think the real debating that should take place about planet level SS Vegeta is if he can simultaneously kill approximately 2000 Raditzes.
 
You should try and read my comment before replying, The stupidest thing i've ever heard was Vegeta being downgraded to moon level because his power level is not 1976 times bigger than Piccolos, well then 23rd budokai piccolo should be moon level too since both Him and Goku didn't gain much power since the tournament as stated by Goku, but Piccolo spent all that time learning th special beam canon so...

yeah you're simply wrong, Vegeta is Planet level Because it was Made Clear by toriyama that if Goku tries to avoid the Galick Gun then the earth will be destroyed.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Roshi's feat is considered an outlier because not too long after, he was casually murdered by a guy who was city level.
I think the real debating that should take place about planet level SS Vegeta is if he can simultaneously kill approximately 2000 Raditzes.
Click to expand...
Raditz is above moon level and Piccolo too since his blast produced 83 zettatons of tnt which is small planet level bro.
 
Maybe you too should try reading my post. When did I ever say that Vegeta should be moon-level? I simply said he should be downgraded, to maybe like, I don't know, Small Planet-Level? Also, they clearly gained a lot of power, that was just yet another inconsistent statement by a Dragonball character.

Oh so we're talking subjective interpretation instead of cold hard evidence? Yeah, with all due respect, I'm not going to argue this any further as interpretation discussions never end.
 
Just because a calc is there doesn't mean it's accurate. It's been more than 3 years since that calc has been done, and the link of the blog it bases itself off of is invalid: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=15186

Since I'm not big on calcs myself, I'd like for our calc group to review that calc and maybe trace its basis, or, all the better, someone on here does a calc for Piccolo's feat then have the calc group review it to settle their stats.
 
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