Kratos 4-A

[ByAsura]

Before we get into this, I'm not advocating for the removal of 4-A, claiming that the stars are illusions, or saying that this feat shouldn't scale to The Furies/Kratos, I'm simply arguing that the feat lacks proof (as in absolute concrete proof, not just shreds of evidence) for it to receive anything more than a possibly/likely rating.

Basically, The Furies used their reality warping to create numerous dimensions during their battle with Kratos, including a replication of at least some of Sparta with a visible moon and some stars in the background, and a horizion-spanning stormy hellhole with tons of isles and volcanoes.

But, the problem is that there's nothing to concretely suggest that the stars, sun and moon are celestial bodies on the same scale as their real (as in real in-universe, not the actual real world we live in) counterparts. And I truly do mean nothing, since we never interact with them, get any statements, or even any kind of implication. Sure, The Furies probably do have intimate knowledge with cosmological phenomena considering their origins, but that's not enough to assume that they can replicate stars 1:1, just that they could if they had the power to, and we don't know if they do due to the lack of proof.

Also, while it can be said that there's nothing against this level of creation power for their reality warping, there's also nothing to prove it from them (or comparable characters, like Kratos) either. In fact, even claiming the city and background isles/volcanoes is 1:1 with the God of War planet somewhat of a stretch, let alone the stars.

In conclusion, the feat literally has no tangible support or any real proof/backing behind it (but that's not to say there's absolutely none), so it should be regulated to a possibly/likely.

If this would somehow change standards for other pocket dimension feats (it wouldn't, from what I've seen), that's a good thing, imo, and we should discuss it here.

On another note, if anyone has any gripes with The Furies' illusion powers and such, take it somewhere else or preferably not at all. This isn't the thread for that, and I'll be deleting such comments.

 

[Planck69]

I'll just give my response to this;

- The Furies were born during a war in which the entire universe and countless stars and galaxies were being spawned from the Primordials so they'd be well aware of what stars are and their scale.

- All of their illusions affect reality and have tangible effects on the characters and themselves. Confirmed by both the game and its developers.

- They warp reality and create their illusions via a yellow-blue magical energy that they use for attacks and said illusions dissipate into that energy when they are stunned or killed.

- Magic is the fundamental energy of every supernatural being in the setting and all of them draw their powers from a variation of this power. It underpines even dimensions and planes of existence and all weapons and beings wield this.

- All of the illusions they've made thus far have been 1:1 physical matches, up to and including the Sun and moon. They have not yet been shown to make optical illusions (heh) with their abilities to trick opponents as opposed to making the objects outright. These illusions work even on Primordial beings like Aeageon, who'd be well aware of what those celestial bodies are, seeing as they were created right before them.

That's my stance on it. To avoid clutter, you can just showcase agreement or disagreement via voting. I am welcome to questions for clarification and I'm sure @ByAsura is too. Personally, I'm just laying out the situation on our end and trying not to argue further.

 

[KLOL506]

These illusions work even on Primordial beings like Aeageon, who'd be well aware of what those celestial bodies are, seeing as they were created right before them.

Aegaeon was born after the Primordial War, locked in Tartarus for most of his life until the end of the Titan War.

 

[Planck69]

Aegaeon was born after the Primordial War, locked in Tartarus for most of his life until the end of the Titan War.

Ah, I see. My mistake there.

 

[ByAsura]

- The Furies were born during a war in which the entire universe and countless stars and galaxies were being spawned from the Primordials so they'd be well aware of what stars are and their scale.

Addressed this in the OP.

- All of their illusions affect reality and have tangible effects on the characters and themselves. Confirmed by both the game and its developers.

Not trying to claim they don't.

- They warp reality and create their illusions via a yellow-blue magical energy that they use for attacks and said illusions dissipate into that energy when they are stunned or killed.

Again, not trying to claim they don't.

- Magic is the fundamental energy of every supernatural being in the setting and all of them draw their powers from a variation of this power. It underpines even dimensions and planes of existence and all weapons and beings wield this.

I don't see why this matters.

- All of the illusions they've made thus far have been 1:1 physical matches, up to and including the Sun and moon.

That isn't shown. All we know is that they made some of Sparta with a shown moon and some stars, as well as a land with volcanoes and storms.

They have not yet been shown to make optical illusions (heh) with their abilities to trick opponents as opposed to making the objects outright. These illusions work even on Primordial beings like Aeageon, who'd be well aware of what those celestial bodies are, seeing as they were created right before them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't all of the Hecatoncheires created after Gaia was a thing.

Even then, the fact that they know what stars are doesn't mean anything. I know what a dodge charger is, but I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if you made a replica of a dodge charger that's based on one from light-years away.

 

[Planck69]

Almost forgot;

@Maverick_Zero_X @DemonGodMitchAubin @Theglassman12 @Migue79 @Elizhaa

Feel free to tag anyone else needed.

 

[Planck69]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't all of the Hecatoncheires created after Gaia was a thing.

Yeah, my mistake here.

Even then, the fact that they know what stars are doesn't mean anything. I know what a dodge charger is, but I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if you made a replica of a dodge charger that's based on one from light-years away.

At the same time, this person has never actually made a fake item replica so far.

But again, I'm just laying it out. You're not like nuking 4-A so I really don't have the energy to argue this as much lol.

 

[ByAsura]

I found the source for that. It was the comics.

I guess we can just agree to disagree there, then. I think even that would still count as a possibly. If anything, it might be the reason why this feat isn't axed altogether.

 

[KLOL506]

Given Planck's response, I'll post my own disagreement.

-It'd require a boatload of headcanon to assume they'd make an exception by excluding their starry sky shenanigans to not be the same stuff. They haven't done this for any of their other smaller range illusions that also involve making mountainous landscapes of Sparta based on using up the far background behind Aegaeon.

-Interactibility would not matter either as all the illusions stem from the same energy type, and again, absolutely no reason exists for the Furies to make exceptions for them either.

-They have no reason to skimp out on the Sun and Moon because they know where it is and just how close it is in vicinity to them, and given their prior experiences in the Primordial War, especially considering that the storm was fully interactible and they purposefully dragged Kratos into the storm dimension to **** with him and kill him there, which terrifically failed. And of course, before you argue the size discrepancy, know that they use the same energy type for all of their shit which would automatically make them touchable and representative of the real thing, which is why the energy source matters to begin with.

So yeah, there you go.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I will give opinion in few hrs.

 

[Planck69]

@Emirp sumitpo @LordTracer @Therefir @Dereck03

You guys feel free to evaluate this too.

 

[KLOL506]

@Emirp sumitpo @LordTracer @Therefir @DemonGodMitchAubin @Dereck03 @Lacku @Dienomite22 @Mister6ame6 @ATalentedMaid @BEASTHEART880 @Diamentus Your input would be appreciated here

 

[ByAsura]

-It'd require a boatload of headcanon to assume they'd make an exception by excluding their starry sky shenanigans to not be the same stuff.

Again, it's really based on the sheer lack of evidence that these even are stars to begin with. We can't know that and aren't given any indication other than visuals, so a possibly suffices.

They haven't done this for any of their other smaller range illusions that also involve making mountainous landscapes of Sparta based on using up the far background behind Aegaeon.

Firstly, smaller range illusions =/= entire star systems.

Secondly, when do we even see mountainous backgrounds in Sparta?

-Interactibility would not matter either as all the illusions stem from the same energy type, and again, absolutely no reason exists for the Furies to make exceptions for them either.

That doesn't really explain the actual argument I was trying to make. I'm not claiming that they're fake because Kratos didn't interact with them, I'm claiming we don't know that they're genuine because we never get any kind of interaction or suggestion.

It may not seem like it, but that's a pretty big difference.

-They have no reason to skimp out on the Sun and Moon because they know where it is and just how close it is in vicinity to them,

Unless they can't make objects of that magnitude.

especially considering that the storm was fully interactible and they purposefully dragged Kratos into the storm dimension to **** with him and kill him there

That would inherently be a different case, since the storm was created for the purpose of wrecking Kratos' shit.

Did the moon ever do something like that? No.

Also, I'm fairly sure that the purpose of illusions that look similar and trick the mind is kind of The Furies' whole purpose. So, even if there's no utility in having a star, creating a decently accurate fakeout would suffice.

And of course, before you argue the size discrepancy, know that they use the same energy type for all of their shit which would automatically make them touchable and representative of the real thing, which is why the energy source matters to begin with.

That still doesn't mean they can make objects of this magnitude, so it doesn't really address the argument.

I'm not claiming that the stars are fake and can't be touched, I'm claiming that evidence of them being genuine isn't fully there yet.

 

[KLOL506]

Again, it's really based on the sheer lack of evidence that these even are stars to begin with. We can't know that and aren't given any indication other than visuals, so a possibly suffices.

Primordial Stuff and the Hecatonchires stuff you posted go against it, so saying there is a lack of evidence isn't exactly correct.

Firstly, smaller range illusions =/= entire star systems.

How is this relevant? Nothing in the entire game shows them to have any sort of cap to what their illusions can achieve. You need better argumentations than that.

Secondly, when do we even see mountainous backgrounds in Sparta?

When he Sparta kicks Tisiphone just as her illusion of the Spartan King gifts Kratos a dagger after mentioning his brother.

That doesn't really explain the actual argument I was trying to make. I'm not claiming that they're fake because Kratos didn't interact with them, I'm claiming we don't know that they're genuine because we never get any kind of interaction or suggestion.

We don't need any, the energy source used to make the illusions is more than enough.

Unless they can't make objects of that magnitude.

Your claim, not mine. You've yet to provide actual proof that there is a hard cap to their powers when everything they've demonstrated so far is utterly casual and non-exhaustive.

That would inherently be a different case, since the storm was created for the purpose of wrecking Kratos' shit.

Did the moon ever do something like that? No.

I was making a case for the storm being 1:1, but in any case, the Moon part is handled by it being powered by the same exact energy source, one that has never been shown to strain in making such large and elaborate illusions. Effort put into the feat is also very important.

That still doesn't mean they can make objects of this magnitude, so it doesn't really address the argument.

Except we literally see them make it so on screen. Thus your only argument now is whether they are 1:1.

 

[Diamentus]

@Emirp sumitpo @LordTracer @Therefir @DemonGodMitchAubin @Dereck03 @Lacku @Dienomite22 @Mister6ame6 @ATalentedMaid @BEASTHEART880 @Diamentus Your input would be appreciated here

Personally, I don't have any input right now. Mainly trying to see who has better points, and going off of there.

Though, I generally have a light favouring towards keeping 4-A Kratos.

 

[Planck69]

Personally, I don't have any input right now. Mainly trying to see who has better points, and going off of there.

Though, I generally have a light favouring towards keeping 4-A Kratos.

Kratos is staying 4-A. This thread is to determine whether he stays outright or it becomes "At least 7-B, possibly 4-A".

 

[Diamentus]

Kratos is staying 4-A. This thread is to determine whether he stays outright or it becomes "At least 7-B, possibly 4-A".

Yeah, I meant I generally favour it staying outright.

 

[ByAsura]

Primordial Stuff and the Hecatonchires stuff you posted go against it, so saying there is a lack of evidence isn't exactly correct.

Not really. All it suggests is that they know about stars, nothing about it suggests they can manufacture entire stars.

So, it's probably sufficient evidence for a possibly rating.

How is this relevant? Nothing in the entire game shows them to have any sort of cap to what their illusions can achieve. You need better argumentations than that.

How is this not relevant? There's literally nothing supporting that they can do this kind of stuff, including the scale of in-game feats. That is literally the point.

When he Sparta kicks Tisiphone just as her illusion of the Spartan King gifts Kratos a dagger after mentioning his brother.

I'll have to check.

We don't need any, the energy source used to make the illusions is more than enough.

That's just not an argument. Yes, I know their illusions come from an energy source, the thing is that coming from the same energy source that made somewhat intricate cities and mountains is just not proof.

Your claim, not mine. You've yet to provide actual proof that there is a hard cap to their powers when everything they've demonstrated so far is utterly casual and non-exhaustive.

There's literally no cap given in-game, though, or any reason to believe that the stars are genuine. Also, making the stars would fall under utterly casual and non-exhaustive, so that's hardly an argument.

Also, your argument that they have no reason to fake stars is a claim in and of itself. Who says they have no reason not to manufacture entire stars? We're literally given nothing here.

I was making a case for the storm being 1:1,

Yes, cool. I was saying that the moon and the storm is a different case.

but in any case, the Moon part is handled by it being powered by the same exact energy source, one that has never been shown to strain in making such large and elaborate illusions. Effort put into the feat is also very important.

Once again, not even evidence. Just because something's made by the same energies, that doesn't mean it's on the same scale as the outside world. They can make objects of different sizes and shapes. By this logic, they couldn't even make an orrery.

Except we literally see them make it so on screen.

Except that's still not evidence. I'm not saying they didn't make it, I'm saying evidence for it being on the same scale is lacking.

Personally, I don't have any input right now. Mainly trying to see who has better points, and going off of there.

Though, I generally have a light favouring towards keeping 4-A Kratos.

My guy, we are keeping 4-A Kratos, just as a possibly rating.

Edit: Nvm.

 

[ByAsura]

I will give the most objective sentence you can say about this feat right here.

The Furies replicated visible night sky stars with reality warping.

What size? What distance? Are they even made of hydrogen? I don't ******* know because the game never answers. There.

 

[ByAsura]

I'll have to check.

Yep. They replicated part of Sparta and hill/mountainsides.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I will give the most objective sentence you can say about this feat right here.

The Furies replicated visible night sky stars with reality warping.

What size? What distance? Are they even made of hydrogen? I don't ******* know because the game never answers. There.

That's....... every starry sky feat in fiction ever.

Hell that's in real life too, it's only because science came so far that we know stars are.... well big ass balls of hydrogen.
No piece of fiction is going to go out of its way describe stars like that when it's so obvious.
No dev or author feels need to do that.

You are using perspective and cosmic distance between camera and stars to you unfair advantage and putting reverse burden of proof on us. Occam's Razor is in our favour, not yours.

 

[ByAsura]

That's....... every starry sky feat in fiction ever.

Hell that's in real life too, it's only because science came so far that we know stars are.... well big ass balls of hydrogen.
No piece of fiction is going to go out of its way describe stars like that when it's so obvious.
No dev or author feels need to do that.

You are downplaying my arguments here.

I'm saying we literally have no proof in the form of interaction, statements, implication, suggestion, or scale feat-wise to suggest that's the case. I'm not claiming that it has to be stated to be made of hydrogen in order for it to be accepted, it was a single example you cherry picked.

Also, if it does apply to every starry sky feat in fiction, then, as I said in the OP, something should be done about that.

You are using perspective and cosmic distance between camera and stars to you unfair advantage and putting reverse burden of proof on us. Occam's Razor is in our favour, not yours.

Occam's Razor literally provides ******* nothing here because even saying these are genuine stars is an assumption.

 

[KLOL506]

Not really. All it suggests is that they know about stars, nothing about it suggests they can manufacture entire stars.

So, it's probably sufficient evidence for a possibly rating.

We'll agree to disagree on that front.

How is this not relevant? There's literally nothing supporting that they can do this kind of stuff, including the scale of in-game feats. That is literally the point.

Except they literally did. At this point the main argument should be whether they're 1:1 or not, because that's all it boils down to now.

That's just not an argument. Yes, I know their illusions come from an energy source, the thing is that coming from the same energy source that made somewhat intricate cities and mountains is just not proof.

Guess we'll agree to disagree on this front too.

There's literally no cap given in-game, though, or any reason to believe that the stars are genuine.

cough Primordial War cough

Also, making the stars would fall under utterly casual and non-exhaustive, so that's hardly an argument.

Energy and stamina expenditure is now a key component in proving the legitimacy and scaling of feats like this.

Also, your argument that they have no reason to fake stars is a claim in and of itself. Who says they have no reason not to manufacture entire stars? We're literally given nothing here.

Like I said, their handling of illusions and their knowledge of the cosmos is in and of itself proof, but I guess we'll agree to disagree on this front as well.

Yes, cool. I was saying that the moon and the storm is a different case.

The only difference here is that the storm was used to screw with Kratos, but otherwise they're the exact same kind of energy constructs in terms of scale and interactibility even if Kratos didn't interact with the moon in the game.

Once again, not even evidence. Just because something's made by the same energies, that doesn't mean it's on the same scale as the outside world.

It does given the current context, so I'll have to disagree with you there as well.

They can make objects of different sizes and shapes. By this logic, they couldn't even make an orrery.

What? What kind of weird logic is this where they can't make an orrery?

Except that's still not evidence. I'm not saying they didn't make it, I'm saying evidence for it being on the same scale is lacking.

So just say it's a matter of scale and not a matter of if the feat even happened to begin with or not.

And nah, like I've already spammed the Primordial and Hecatonchires part, that's evidence plenty for me. Maybe not you, but I guess being too nitpicky has its flaws.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

I think KLOL and Gilver make sense.

I agree with keeping straight up 4-A.

 

[ByAsura]

Except they literally did.

What we saw them to is make shit that looked like celestial bodies. That's the point. We don't actually know that they're true stars.

cough Primordial War cough

cough they're not ******* Primordials cough

Energy and stamina expenditure is now a key component in proving the legitimacy and scaling of feats like this.

I really don't see how in this situation. I get it for other feats like this, but certainly not this context and situation. So can you actually explain yourself here? All you've really done is tell me that stablization and shit exists (which I already knew).

Like I said, their handling of illusions and their knowledge of the cosmos is in and of itself proof, but I guess we'll agree to disagree on this front as well.

Like I said, simply knowing about something doesn't mean they have the power, they're not Primordials, and we don't really even have that much evidence that all their other illusions are exclusively 1:1.

Also, that's not proof, at best that's some level (a weak level, mind you) of evidence. Proof would be an actual demonstration that these are stars.

The only difference here is that the storm was used to screw with Kratos, but otherwise they're the exact same kind of energy constructs in terms of scale and interactibility even if Kratos didn't interact with the moon in the game.

You keep harking on this point about the same kind of energy, but it's still just as meaningless and has no evidence behind it. Where is it stated that simply because they use the same kind of energy that objects Kratos can't possibly even reach are as big as something like the moon?

This is like saying an illusory realm can't have borders because it was made by the same energy as the parts that don't have borders.

It does given the current context, so I'll have to disagree with you there as well.

Your current context wouldn't get anything more than a possibly rating because it doesn't even prove that these were stars, it proves that they could potentially make stars given their knowledge.

What? What kind of weird logic is this where they can't make an orrery?

My point is that you seem to suggest they can't possibly just make smaller scale versions.

So just say it's a matter of scale and not a matter of if the feat even happened to begin with or not.

Literally what I've been saying the whole time.

And nah, like I've already spammed the Primordial and Hecatonchires part, that's evidence plenty for me. Maybe not you, but I guess being too nitpicky has its flaws.

Because it's not evidence, my man. It's not nitpicky, it's 'we don't even know these are ******* stars.' Bruh.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

cough they're not ******* Primordials cough

They are the children of the primordials. If that counts for anything

 

[ByAsura]

Children that this wiki and KLOL regard as infinitely inferior.

Also, the Gods in both myths spawned man and animals, so I don't see that as counting for anything.

 

[KLOL506]

What we saw them to is make shit that looked like celestial bodies. That's the point.

Okay and? We're arguing the scale at this point then?

cough they're not ******* Primordials cough

cough they're the children of the Primordials and while inferior, they still saw the shitshow from the Primordial War cough

I really don't see how in this situation. I get it for other feats like this, but certainly not this context and situation. So can you actually explain yourself here? All you've really done is tell me that stablization and shit exists (which I already knew).

That aspect is just one part of proving the legitimacy of a typical pocket dimension feat alongside the others you see before you.

Like I said, simply knowing about something doesn't mean they have the power, they're not Primordials, and we don't really even have that much evidence that all their other illusions are exclusively 1:1.

We do, their illusions basically override the already existing backgrounds with their own version, and it returns to normal when they're stunned or killed.

Also, that's not proof, at best that's some level (a weak level, mind you) of evidence. Proof would be an actual demonstration that these are stars.

Look above.

You keep harking on this point about the same kind of energy, but it's still just as meaningless and has no evidence behind it. Where is it stated that simply because they use the same kind of energy that objects Kratos can't possibly even reach are as big as something like the moon?

Now you're just being too nitpicky for the sake of being too nitpicky.

Your current context wouldn't get anything more than a possibly rating because it doesn't even prove that these were stars, it proves that they could potentially make stars.

You say "potentially" when they literally just override the blue sky behind them to make the stars on them and give it its own moon even.

My point is that you seem to suggest they can't possibly just make smaller scale versions.

They can, but they don't have a logical reason to. That's my argument.

Because it's not evidence, my man. It's not nitpicky, it's 'we don't even know these are ******* stars.' Bruh.

We don't know these are ******* stars

Literally creates a night-sky full of 'em by overriding the already-present blue sky

Bruh momento

 

[ByAsura]

Okay and? We're arguing the scale at this point then?

Yes. I literally just told you that. Is this some attempt to backtrack or something?

cough they're the children of the Primordials and while inferior, they still saw the shitshow from the Primordial War cough

Ok, then, the inferior by 2 orders of infinity children of Primordials. I should've been more specific.

Why does it matter if they saw it? Again, the fact that they have some knowledge is meaningless, especially since we see the creation of the universe occur chronologically before the creation of the oceans, let alone The Furries (that wasn't a typo).

That aspect is just one part of proving the legitimacy of a typical pocket dimension feat alongside the others you see before you.

K, do you actually care to fully explain why this time?

Also, if you're saying they did all this with 0 effort and are saying that effort is a way of proving this, how does that support your argument at all?

Look above.

Same shit, different day.

Now you're just being too nitpicky for the sake of being too nitpicky.

Yes, because a minimum difference of ~1.2807672e+46 to 4.6173158e+36x between what we can prove via facts and what we're really just assuming at this point is nitpicky.

You say "potentially" when they literally just override the blue sky behind them to make the stars on them and give it its own moon even.

It's not like they can just make it appear like there's a moon in the sky, hmm? And that wouldn't require incalculably less effort, would it?

As for overriding being proof of 1:1 scale, that doesn't matter because it'd still be based on a limited viewpoint where the moon is fake. Although I do admit that the parts of Sparta we can see, isles and volcanoes are fine, in that case.

They can, but they don't have a logical reason to. That's my argument.

And once again, that's not stated in game. It's a claim that can't possibly be proven or disproven, and relies on their ability to make actual stars in the first place, not the other way round.

This is just going in circles.

Bruh momento

Bruh, I meant stars millions of miles wide and light-years away. Don't try this tomfoolery.

 

[ByAsura]

Anyway, I'm getting a headahce and I've got other stuff to do.

I'm ducking out for the moment (maybe until early saturday or mid sunday, with it being late friday where I live), and I might use that time to find an actual solid piece of proof/strong evidence that The Furies' stars are genuinely cosmic scale.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes. I literally just told you that. Is this some attempt to backtrack or something?

Nah.

Why does it matter if they saw it? Again, the fact that they have some knowledge is meaningless, especially since we see the creation of the universe occur chronologically before the creation of the oceans, let alone The Furries (that wasn't a typo).

They'd have further knowledge of the stars they're creating.

K, do you actually care to fully explain why this time?

Also, if you're saying they did all this with 0 effort and are saying that effort is a way of proving this, how does that support your argument at all?

I said "little to no energy"

Yes, because a minimum difference of ~1.2807672e+46 to 4.6173158e+36x between what we can prove via facts and what we're really just assuming at this point is nitpicky.

It's not like they can just make it appear like there's a moon in the sky, hmm? And that wouldn't require incalculably less effort, would it?

They don't have a reason to. They can just go summon the real thing instead without screwing around.

As for overriding being proof of 1:1 scale, that doesn't matter because it'd still be based on a limited viewpoint where the moon is fake. Although I do admit that the parts of Sparta we can see, isles and volcanoes are fine, in that case.

Disagree, this is an arbitrary limit being placed for no reason.

And once again, that's not stated in game. It's a claim that can't possibly be proven or disproven, and relies on their ability to make actual stars in the first place, not the other way round.

Already told you why it can be proven but oh well.

Bruh, I meant stars millions of miles wide and light-years away. Don't try this tomfoolery.

Same exact thing, I don't see any difference here.

 

[Planck69]

Semi-related but is there a way to calc the creation of the mountains and volcanoes from the Furies in case this goes through?

 

[ByAsura]

huh, no offence, but I thought there'd be more to respond to. I guess I'll actually respond to this and just mostly wait for staff input.

They'd have further knowledge of the stars they're creating.

yeah, we've been over this. they know about stars =/= they can use that knowledge to make genuine stars. it'd rely on the fact that they can make stars on this scale in the first place, which is actually what I'm arguing about.

also, they were likely born after stars existed anyway, as i just showed.

I said "little to no energy"

Can you explain the particular difference, in this case, or even show where we see it taking more or less effort?

They don't have a reason to. They can just go summon the real thing instead without screwing around.

Once again, this isn't something that has any backing to it. You'd need to prove that they can even make stars on this scale in the first place rather than not screwing around being the proof that they can make stars on this scale.

It borders on circular reasoning.

Disagree, this is an arbitrary limit being placed for no reason.

A) it's not at all a limit because we're literally giving them a possibly rating, my guy, B) somehow less arbitrary than assuming they made true stars when there's not even much implication (and don't call the existence of the Primordial War implication, because that wouldn't actually fall under implication) of such a thing.

Already told you why it can be proven but oh well.

And I told you why it can't, but oh well.

Same exact thing, I don't see any difference here.

Then you need your glasses checked, because we're looking at orders so large that they rival or far exceed the number of every atoms in every human being on this planet.

 

[chosen]

Following
Imma give my opinion after a few more responses

 

[Theglassman12]

I don’t really see why we’re assuming the stars are fake when everything else in the realms the furies made aren’t. That requires evidence in your end that the stars aren’t real to begin with, plus if we’re really pushing for this being too vague this has to apply to every single pocket dimension feat ever that just has the visuals of stars and nebulas existing.

 

[ByAsura]

No, the creation feats page has multiple guidelines for this. The first is that the realm has to be well detailed and not simply a an illusion, but the 2nd says there should be some reason that it's not a decoration of sorts.

• There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location.
• There should be some reason to consider the backgrounds stars, not just painted decorations within a throne room or museum.

This blatantly doesn't fulfil that criteria.

Cool, then that should apply to every pocket dimension feat, as I already said in the OP. It's absolute horseshit to do this kind of stuff with this level of substantiation. Like imagine rating someone as Galaxy level with no possibly/likely rating because they make a realm with a city and and a night sky that looks similar to the milky way that only appears for 10 seconds, isn't illusory, and gets no explanation otherwise. At the very minimum, the characters themselves should at least have some support or some kind of cosmic scale.

Also, we aren't assuming they're fake, we're regulating it to a possibly rating because we literally have not even the most miniscule amount of semi-concrete proof that they're real, but there's still tiny amounts of evidence.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Also, we aren't assuming they're fake, we're regulating it to a possibly rating because we literally have not even the most miniscule amount of semi-concrete proof that they're real.

But that's applying the assumption that they "could" be fake due to lack of evidence, no?

 

[ByAsura]

Yes, but how is 'could be real' is also not an assumption since there's literally no evidence for either except for distant visuals that aren't proof of anything?

Kratos' own feats should take precedence in this situation, with this being regulated to a possibly.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Yes, but how is could be real is also not an assumption since there's literally no evidence for either except for distant visuals that aren't proof of anything?

Do there Illusionis have an actual effect on reality? Because if said illusion can interact with reality and such, it would be weird if the general area the made is physically intractable but the rest is half assed illusion that doesn't have an impact.

Kratos' own feats should take precedence in this situation, with this being regulated to a possibly.

I can somewhat agree with this, DP verse has a starry sky feat that was accepted and legit but we only rate the characters as possibly 4-A and use their feats for scaling. However, I don't have that much knowledge on God of War so I can't really compare the situation.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm kind of thinking of temporarily closing this or something. I've completely and unexpectedly run out of time for too much other shit, and it seems like everyone loves pocket dimension feats for other verses too much for this to go through anyway.

Do there Illusionis have an actual effect on reality? Because if said illusion can interact with reality and such,

It does.

it would be weird if the general area the made is physically intractable but the rest is half assed illusion that doesn't have an impact.

People keep saying this, but I really just have to ask how? Not only is this what practically every open world video game does, but the characters wouldn't even be concerned with impact when Kratos can't fly to the stars or affect them in any capacity.