Koichi seeing RHCP

[Nehz_XZX]

One of the justifications of the speed rating from the blog https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Defending_JoJo_FTL_feats is Koichi supposedly seeing Red Hot Chilli Pepper and determining that it is moving at the speed of light. This is in my opinion wrong. It's more likely that Koichi simply knew the speed of electricity in electronic devices than that he mentally calculated RHCP's speed and memorised the speed of light. You can look the speed of electricity up on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity. This justification should simply be removed from the blog.

 

[Chariot190]

Koichi literally says in a long ass exposition that he saw RHCP move though. And we even get it from his POV, he manages to see it move, quite clearly even, albeit he has trouble determining where it'll show up next, he's still able to see it travel at that speed. (Not to mention from his pov the time between attacks was like a second to half seconds despite the thing only moving like a meter or two at lightspeed).

It still checks out.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I have made an effort to look at the manga for this. In the translation I have found Koichi says that RHCP moves through the wires at basically the speed of light. He doesn't say how fast it is outside the wires and unless he can see through the ground and into the wires he cannot actually see the speed of it's movements in there either. I don't know where you have the timeframe from but if it is from the anime, then the rules regarding Cinematic Timing apply to that. If you want to check for yourself, here is the link: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nmK46qa1..._uFvsVFPCNiK9q7gJfx3ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/014.jpg.

 

[Chariot190]

RHCP moves at the speed while connected through the wires (given it's literally made from electricity and at all points in that sequence of events it was connected to the wiring, even if he cant move that fast outside the wires (he can move even faster, just not in movement), the initial bursting out would still be lightspeed, especially the thiord time we see it happen as we see him half in the wiring only to retreat back in, in which Koichi could visually see him retreat while in the wire), to go from Point A to Point B regardless of the time is at least lightspeed. Koichi is capable of seeing that, just a few pages prior to that he says clearly he saw RHCP move through the wires, come out, move Josuke and go back in and piss off. How fast it is outside doesnt matter, given it retreats back into the wires at lightspeed as well, in which Koichi can see.

The timeframe is from the anime but no, that isn't cinematic timing, it'd only be cinematic timing if it wasn't from a character's perspective. It's from Koichi's perspective, ergo it's Koichi's timing. Much like Neo and the Matrix, the bullet timing isnt cinematic timing, it's Neo's timing.

And it wouldnt matter anyway, RHCP is faster outside of the wires than he is inside the wires, at least his punches are.

But lastly, Koichi was able to see the the tar bubble up while RHCP was in the wires moving at lightspeed about to emerge, not outside (so the point is moot) but when it was still inside about to come out and attack. What's that mean? It means Koichi was able to see where it was gonna come out, register it, warn Josuke and for Crazy Diamond to get into position and throw a punch, all before RHCP could move his own body length and exit the wire, while moving at lightspeed.

Koichi can definitly see him move at lightspeed for that reason alone, the fact he could perceive all that while RHCP was in the middle of exiting is kinda insane.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually going frame by frame on its retreat and converting that into reactions/rps ends up at like 4c reactions.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Being connected to a wire doean't make him as fast as he is in the wire and him being faster outside of it has nothing to do with Koichi determining his speed simply by observing him. RHCP consisting out of electricity doesn't automatically give him a certain speed. Lightning is also electricity and moves much slower than light.

How fast it pops in and out is also not connected to the lightspeed statement since everything that Koichi can see from his perspective happens outside the wire. Technically he doesn't even need to see RHCP popping in and out in order to know that it is doing that since simply seeing it constantly appear and disappear would be enough to deduce it.

Unless the tar bubble was lightspeed it definitely doesn't actually support your point.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Unless we know the actual timeframes of RHCP being outside of the wire we cannot actually calculate his speed in these moments.

 

[Chariot190]

Missed the point competely, to the point I feel like you're purposely being ignorant of the subject now. RHCP retreating into the wire is lightspeed, why? Because at every point that happens we can see clearly he's still halfway inside the wire. Ergo him deciding to retreat, at all points, is lightspeed as well because in every instance he is inside the wire, he never leaves fully, he's always partially inside it still, as such his retreats back into it full are lightspeed as well given the part that's moving in order to retreat is still within and thus still lightspeed. Koichi can percieve it.

>Unless the tar bubble was lightspeed it definitely doesn't actually support your point.

Ok so you missed the point completely, no offense but strawmanning isnt gonna help you either, the tar bubble isnt lightspeed, but RHCP is, RHCP nearing the exit of the wire caused the tar to get shocked and thus bubble, Koichi was able to see that, pick up on it and warn Josuke (in which Josuke gets Crazy Diamond to turn around and throw a punch). The tar bubbling up only happens at the exact moment RHCP is about to exit the wire, thus Koichi was able to pick up on all that before he could exit despite literally being at the end of the wire about to exit (but hasnt exited yet, meaning all of this was happening while RHCP was moving at lightspeed) but before he could actually come out. What's that mean? It means Koichi could pick up on RHCP's lightspeed movements and warn Josuke before the thing could even cross half it's body length.

>Unless we know the actual timeframes of RHCP being outside of the wire we cannot actually calculate his speed in these moments.

We dont need a timeframe, we just need to know the speed of RHCP and how much time passed from Koichi's perspective. Of which we have both.

 

[Chariot190]

Hell thinking on it, it aint even the first time Koichi could react and do shit while RHCP was moving at lightspeed through wiring. It's like the third. Shit's happened before, the whole Koichi having a meltdown before RHCP could move even 50 meters away while moving at lightspeed is something.

Not only that but looking at the scene as well, Josuke's restoration is at least equal, if not faster than RHCP's speed as he could bring Okuyasu back before RHCP hit a tower or pole, meaning Okuasu at minimum crossed the same distance RHCP moved before RHCP could move significantly further. May as well tack that onto FTL support as well.

Edit: Actually that may be calc'able. I'm gonna look into that.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'm genuinely sorry if I really made you feel like that but I genuinely don't understand your point. Are you sure that you brought your point across as clear as you apparantly believe you have done? Based on what I know I'm thinking and what you are writing in your replies it definitely isn't the case.

I'd also like you to not accuse me of strawmanning when I didn't even know what strawmanning is to the point where I had to actually look it up. Here is the link of the website I looked it up on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_ma. Don't simply assume the worst of me when you probably don't even know me that well. If I missed your point, just tell me and elaborate why. I'm currently more worked up about that then I probably should be.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The feats that you mentioned do sound interesting to me I'd like to see those calculations.

 

[Chariot190]

The point is to put it as simplified as humanly possible. '

Koichi could visibly see RHCP retreat into the wires, while he isnt confirmed to move at lightspeed out of the wires, his retreats are indeed lightspeed. Koichi could perceive him visibly moving while being sucked back into the wiring. And it wasnt even the first time either. Ergo, he can see lightspeed RHCP because he literally had even if we exclude him outside of the wiring.

And as for the tar thing, I explained exactly what Koichi reacting to that meant above.

Plus looking into it Josuke's restoration is at least equal with RHCP's speed while in wiring, so there's that.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Your first argument doesn't really work in my opinion since RHCP is only "halfway" in the wire. The statement is that it travels through the wire at basically lightspeed but that doesn't mean it retreats back into the wire at lightspeed. There is also the fact that it is basically lightspeed and not just lightspeed or exactly lightspeed and the speed of electricity that the Wikipedia page states is 50%-99% of the speed of light.

In order for the tar bubble in your scenario to be capable of giving Koichi an effective warning sign it would need to move a significant amount before RHCP comes out at lightspeed. The electricity that trigerred the reaction from the tar did presumably come from the electricity RHCP is made of after all. The speed the tar bubble would need for that would probably be in the range of relativistic and faster than light if I'm not wrong.

RHCP's speed outside of the wires is one of the things being questioned here so that argument with knowing it's speed and Koichi's perspective only really counts if there is enough evidence and statements for the speed outside of the wire.

 

[Chariot190]

>Your first argument doesn't really work in my opinion since RHCP is only "halfway" in the wire. The statement is that it travels through the wire at basically lightspeed but that doesn't mean it retreats back into the wire at lightspeed. There is also the fact that it is basically lightspeed and not just lightspeed or exactly lightspeed and the speed of electricity that the Wikipedia page states is 50%-99% of the speed of light.

Yeah, it travels through the wire at light speed, guess what it's doing while it's retreating? Moving through the wire at lightspeed (hell it even visibly converts into the form it takes while moving through the wiring upon retreating, given we see exactly what he looks like while doing it when he's like wtf when Okuyasu got saved). Literally half of it is, at all times, in the wire, that part of it is moving at lightspeed, Koichi can perceive that, this really isnt difficult to understand dude. Unless you're trying to say that arbitrarily the part of him that's in the wire loses it's lightspeed properties when only like 30% of him is peeking out of the wire. (And thinking on it, the fact RHCP can move through the wires at that speed, control where it comes out, stop, turn around, react, drop and let go of his targets at specific locations, etc all while moving through wires at that speed is lightspeed reactions as well (technicaly it'd be FTL reactions given the proximity and time he'd have to do those things), should probably add that to the blog).

Based on at least one source, the velocity factor for a piece of copper wire is about 0.951. Therefore, the speed of electricity i a 12-gauge copper wire is 299,792,458 meters per second x 0.951 or 285,102,627 meters per second.

Given we see the exact type of wiring RHCP is traveling through, being copper based. yeah no, he's at minimum 0.950999998138712c, so over 95% of the speed of light. A maximum 5% difference isnt enough to detract from it being lightspeed reactions.

>n order for the tar bubble in your scenario to be capable of giving Koichi an effective warning sign it would need to move a significant amount before RHCP comes out at lightspeed. The electricity that trigerred the reaction from tar did presumably come from the electricity RHCP is made of after all. The speed the tar bubble would need for that would probably be in the range of relativistic and faster than light if I'm not wrong.

Yes, the tar itself was technically moving at rel-lightspeeds. Doesnt change the fact that Koichi picked up on the the shock from RHCP moving through the wire and nearing the exit, warned Josuke and could perceive it all, before RHCP could actually exit the wire, ergo throughout that entire exchange, RHCP was moving at lightspeed while trying to exit the wire but failed to actually exit before Koichi and Josuke reacted to it, with the distance RHCP needing to move only having to be it's body length (which isnt much given how short he is).

 

[Nehz_XZX]

When 30% of him is outside the wire then that 30% certainly doesn't have the properties of electricity traveling through copper wires. I don't think that it is arbitrary to state that since the statement refers to the speed inside the wire and that part simply isn't in the wire. Being partially in the wire doesn't change anything for me in that case. I don't even understand why that would make the part outside the wire apparently automatically basically lightspeed.

Knowing the specific kind of wire we are talking about together with the speed electricity travels through it in this case is actually pretty nice to know. Thanks for that, it's always great to learn something new.

Your third argument is pretty good in my opinion. The only part that is missing from it for me is a solid reason for it exiting the wire at lightspeed that I'm actually understanding.

 

[Chariot190]

>When 30% of him is outside the wire then that 30% certainly doesn't have the properties of electricity traveling through copper wires. I don't think that it is arbitrary to state that since the statement refers to the speed inside the wire and that part simply isn't in the wire. Being partially in the wire doesn't change anything for me in that case. I don't even understand why that would make the part outside the wire apparantly automatically basically lightspeed.

Nobody is saying the part outside the wire is lightspeed, only the part inside the wire, the part he keeps inside the wire for the sole purpose of being able to make a quick retreat. His retreats are lightspeed because he's half in the wire, the part that's moving, is moving at lightspeed due to being in the wire, Koichi can perceive that bit. I'm completely disregarding any movements the part of him outside the wire is doing (his upper half), you misunderstand that, I'm talking about the part of him that is i the wire, his bottom half basically, it can move at that speed and it's why he keeps it in the wire, so he can retreat at an incredible speed he otherwise couldnt if he was out of the wire fully. To put simply, when RHCP gets metaphorically sucked into the wire, it's the same speed as he's moving while in the wire (pretty sure the okuyasu thing confirms that as well).

>Your third argument is pretty good in my opinion. The only part that is missing from it for me is a solid reason for it exiting the wire at lightspeed that I'm actually understanding.

I'm not saying he exited the wire at lightspeed, the entire point is that he didn't exit the wire, Koichi noticed him as he was about to exit the wire, which the shocks let him know he was nearing the exit of the wire, Koichi then proceeded to warn Josuke, the RHCP exited the wire. Koichi managed to react to and perceive that all while RHCP was fully inside the wire moving at a guranteed 95%+ lightspeed and he did it all before RHCP could reach the exit of the wire. Put simply between RHCP getting near the wire exit but before he actually came out Koichi reacted to and warned Josuke and Crazy Diamond began throwing his punch.

 

[Chariot190]

Also because I missed it, yeah, we get a closeup view of the wiring when Okuyasu cuts it and when Crazy Diamond punches the ground. It's extremely heavy duty insulated copper wiring.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Okay, but if only the part in the wire is moving at lightspeed how does keeping a part in there enable him a quick retreat? The part outside of it doesn't become faster because of that, right?

Your second argument convinces me. That should definitely be in the blog.

 

[Chariot190]

The part that's out just gets dragged along with the bottom half that's in the wiring, we actually see that like twice, the bottom half that's ine the wire starts to move and the top gets pulled with it, it's why he appears to be sucked in. The bottom half started moving and the top gets whipped backward as the bottom part started moving away.

The blog should also mention Wham's rel feat, Weather Report's possible rel-lightspeed feat, Kars secod lightspeed feat (I think, I'll have to check, could be wrong on that one, also think Esidisi reacts to the aja laser too), Chariot's first ftl feat (calcing that right now actually), the fact RHCP would have FTL reactions for being able to precisely control itself while moving through the wiring, the fact Star Platinum at its peak is the fastest Stand in history and thus faster than RHCP and the Hanged Man (of which are both stated to mve at almost and exactly lightspeed), and a few other things. Hel pretty sure JoJoveller has a few supporting statements as well.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Okay, the upper half is just getting dragged along and isn't moving as fast as the lower half. That should make seeing that far less impressive than seeing the tar bubble. I think I actually understand it now. Thanks for explaining.

There seem to be a lot of things that should be clarified or added in the blog. Should there be a new thread for that?

 

[Chariot190]

I'd liken it to seeing a dude riding a car. Yeah the dude riding a car isnt moving as fast, but because he's attached to the thing moving the fast, he is as well as long as he's riding it, That only applies to when he retreats into the wiring though, his movements while outside of it arent reliant on the part that's in the wiring but when he's getting sucked in the outside part is temporarily moving at comparable speeds backward into the wire.


I was gonna make a blog anyway even before this thread was made. No point making that blog though right now if feats needs to be calc'd, would be best to do it when everything is done, gonna calc those first then make the blog.

Was also gonna make a blog showing cases of Stand's intangibility because there's a shit ton of examples that never get brought up, like Star Platinum phasing through a jewelry case, Chariot phasig through a bed, Kakyoin confirming HG can phase if he wanted, Whitesnake phasing through metal bars, Soft & Wet phasing through a wall, etc.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

They already have selective Intangibility though. Do you simply want to add supporting feats?

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, most think it's only a thing because of Jotaro phasing his hand into his hest to stop his heart, when there's like at least ten other obvious example.

Like as said above Whitesnake flying through metal bars, jewelry, bed, etc.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I never knew of people believing that. I always thought that it was something obvious with a lot of evidence that everyone who follows the series knows to some degree. If this is true, I was obviously wrong about that.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Do you happen to know feats and statements in Part 5 - 8 that put the characters at ftl or even mftl? I don't like how everything seems to get scaled from Polnareff's one feat in Part 3 and I'd like there to be other calculations outside of Part 3 supporting that.

 

[Chariot190]

Chariot has like four FTL+-MFTl feats, it's not just one. Although it isnt really scaling of SP, it's scaling off Star Platinum, who's >>> Chariot. Scaling of Joseph is a thing to given he has two lightspeed feats.

For Part 5 and 6? Idk, I know there's Weather reacting to MIH while time is so accelerated that weeks if not months pass by in less than a second.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Are all of these feats calced? I only know of one calced speed feat from Polnareff that is actually used for scaling and the verse page doesn't even have that one.

 

[Chariot190]

Five are, the important one is the Hanged Man feat, a few others are indeed calc'd though.

1.

2.

3.

The hanged Man feat and I cant find the other.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I already knew the feats from Joseph and Kars but seeing them again is still nice. Having a calculation for the feat with The Sun is also nice. You said that Polnareff has four feats though. So far I only know of two.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'd really like to know the other two feats Silver Chariot has done.

 

[Chariot190]

He cuts Hanged Man twice, not just the main one. There's the Sun and the main Hanged Man feat.

I forget the 4th feat, it's probably Chariot moving back to Pol's side after slashing the door before the light could extend fully (at least in the manga) or Pol reacting to Sethan extending out. Actually speaking of shadow timing, pretty sure there's a natural sunlight reaction feat in Black Sabbath, gonna go check that out.