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I just added it to both profiles.
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Knuckles vs Buzzwole
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 7,971
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Then this can be closed.
Cal?
Cal?
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>But that still isn't skill, dodging attacks from someone thousands of times slower than you isn't skill
It is when the said being is someone whos been in combat for years, facing the most experienced trained pokemon, and gets fodderized very easily.
Even then, facing the Tapu is a better experience feat anyway.
>10 to 20 seconds, and it's plenty enough of time
Assuming that it will hit. Will get to this more below.
>and you can't just make up what Buzzwole can do, even with fewer appereances you still use what's in character
Im not making up anything here. Im using very valid justifications to say Buzzwole will use one of its benefical moves immediately when not only are its benefical moves the only moves it has, it's naturally a fighting type. So the chances of it using a non-fighting move first are close to 0 if not that.
And no, thats not how in-character works here. We dont give a characterization to someone who uses tactics to stomp fodder instead of beings actually on their level. If Goku went up to a human and used a small ki attack to hold back against them, you wouldnt say that he would start out like that against Frieza or any actual enemy thats a threat would you? Of course not. How Buzzwole sees a Pikachu is different than how he would see an Ultra Beast, therefore you cannot assume that Buzzwole will treat any opponent in general like how he treats fodder.
>I could just say the same and say that Knuckles will imediately use Power Flash and Indigo asteiroid with this logic of making stuff up for what they can do in character since Knuckles hasn't fought much in the modern era .
False equivalancy on a very huge level. Knuckles and Buzzwole are not in the same situations in the slightest and im seriously hoping I dont need to explain this difference.
>They never fought Zygard, for all we know he could stomp them, so we can't say that they are comparable, and it works on Chaos 6 and Perfect Chaos and Dark Gaia if you use them.
And for all we know, he cant. So using a 50/50 chance speculation argument doesnt help your point here.
Even then, the UBs being => Perfect Zygarde is what is currently accepted here on this site. You dont like it? Make a CRT for it, otherwise its irrelevant.
>I was wrong, it's imunity, the ice attacks don't harm Knuckles.
And your wrong once again. Its not immunity, its resistance. Immunity is a No Limits Fallacy.
>It isn't ridiculous when Knuckles know all of his own moves and when to use them
....and again, so does Buzzwole.
And your still acting like Knuckles will know Buzzwoles weaknesses the moment this fight starts to know "when" to use them when he doesnt.
>hey aren't slot machines that keep changing moves until the one it works, you need to prove that he will use them,
And neither one is idiotic enough to re-use a move that wont help them as thats blatantly ignoring common sense, so yes, they will continue using moves until they find the one that will work to their advantage, which helps Buzzwole even more since the only moves in his arsenal are ones that will help him.
>and making strategies will know when to use his moves
This requires Knuckles to already know Buzzwole's weaknesses. Which he doesnt have.
>also Knuckles has way more moves that are effective on Buzzwole
And this is exactly why you cant claim Knuckles will immediately go for the right one immediately. Its because he has too much of them that it will take him longer to narrow down what will best suit him before Buzzwole does so. For example, if I had a 1000 different kind of moves in my arsenal, and only 10 of them would actually be effective, I would have to think through 950 other powers to figure out which 10 would actually be effective here. Meanwhile, my opponent only has 500 different kinds of powers but 450 of them are useful against me.
Whos going to be the one who gets off the right move first? My opponent. And this is the same case with Knuckles and Buzzwole.
>Knuckles will know when to use his moves depending on the situation thanks to he's greater skill, inteligence and ability to make better strategies on the times he was the commander of the resistance
And this is all completely irrelevant since Knuckles will not know what Buzzwole is weak to when this fight starts. Being great at strategy =/= being able to know ones natural weaknesses.
>if he's being drained he can use Power Flash to stun him
Stunning Buzzwole wouldnt stop the life draining, especially if Buzzwole is using its stingers.
>if he's being countered he can use the wisps and Thunder Arrow and if he's using stat boosts he can use Power Flash or the wisps
None of this will, again, actually stop the powers from being used. They arent actual counters.
>or if he heals he can just use Violet Void and Indigo Asteiroid to make sure he doesn't again, Knuckles greater arsenal just means that he has more responses to what Buzzwole can do, and Knuckles is used to dealing with many choices since he lead a army
You keep mixing "He can do x" with "He will do x". Stop doing this. What Knuckles can do and what he will actually do, right away, are 2 very different things. Yes, he has a greater arsenal and more options, but that only worsens him when he now has to choose between which option will help. Meanwhile, all of Buzzwoles options are smaller than Knuckles and they will all help him, so it doesnt matter what option he chooses to start with.
This is yet again another disadvantage that the Knuckles side chooses to ignore acting like it doesnt matter when it definitely does.
>Thunder arrow is undodgeble and Buzzwole can't counter while he's stunned by Power Flash
"Undodgeable" is also another No Limits Fallacy the way your making this sound. So no.
Especially since Buzzwole is ludicriously faster than Knuckles without speed being equalized.
>Zygard coming to fight them is still vague, he could just think that nobody in Alola can defeat them and come to help save the pokemon before they cause some trouble
The Ultra Beasts on numerous occasions are regarded as beings who are threats to all Pokemon, so this rebuttal right here is already most-definitely wrong.
It is when the said being is someone whos been in combat for years, facing the most experienced trained pokemon, and gets fodderized very easily.
Even then, facing the Tapu is a better experience feat anyway.
>10 to 20 seconds, and it's plenty enough of time
Assuming that it will hit. Will get to this more below.
>and you can't just make up what Buzzwole can do, even with fewer appereances you still use what's in character
Im not making up anything here. Im using very valid justifications to say Buzzwole will use one of its benefical moves immediately when not only are its benefical moves the only moves it has, it's naturally a fighting type. So the chances of it using a non-fighting move first are close to 0 if not that.
And no, thats not how in-character works here. We dont give a characterization to someone who uses tactics to stomp fodder instead of beings actually on their level. If Goku went up to a human and used a small ki attack to hold back against them, you wouldnt say that he would start out like that against Frieza or any actual enemy thats a threat would you? Of course not. How Buzzwole sees a Pikachu is different than how he would see an Ultra Beast, therefore you cannot assume that Buzzwole will treat any opponent in general like how he treats fodder.
>I could just say the same and say that Knuckles will imediately use Power Flash and Indigo asteiroid with this logic of making stuff up for what they can do in character since Knuckles hasn't fought much in the modern era .
False equivalancy on a very huge level. Knuckles and Buzzwole are not in the same situations in the slightest and im seriously hoping I dont need to explain this difference.
>They never fought Zygard, for all we know he could stomp them, so we can't say that they are comparable, and it works on Chaos 6 and Perfect Chaos and Dark Gaia if you use them.
And for all we know, he cant. So using a 50/50 chance speculation argument doesnt help your point here.
Even then, the UBs being => Perfect Zygarde is what is currently accepted here on this site. You dont like it? Make a CRT for it, otherwise its irrelevant.
>I was wrong, it's imunity, the ice attacks don't harm Knuckles.
And your wrong once again. Its not immunity, its resistance. Immunity is a No Limits Fallacy.
>It isn't ridiculous when Knuckles know all of his own moves and when to use them
....and again, so does Buzzwole.
And your still acting like Knuckles will know Buzzwoles weaknesses the moment this fight starts to know "when" to use them when he doesnt.
>hey aren't slot machines that keep changing moves until the one it works, you need to prove that he will use them,
And neither one is idiotic enough to re-use a move that wont help them as thats blatantly ignoring common sense, so yes, they will continue using moves until they find the one that will work to their advantage, which helps Buzzwole even more since the only moves in his arsenal are ones that will help him.
>and making strategies will know when to use his moves
This requires Knuckles to already know Buzzwole's weaknesses. Which he doesnt have.
>also Knuckles has way more moves that are effective on Buzzwole
And this is exactly why you cant claim Knuckles will immediately go for the right one immediately. Its because he has too much of them that it will take him longer to narrow down what will best suit him before Buzzwole does so. For example, if I had a 1000 different kind of moves in my arsenal, and only 10 of them would actually be effective, I would have to think through 950 other powers to figure out which 10 would actually be effective here. Meanwhile, my opponent only has 500 different kinds of powers but 450 of them are useful against me.
Whos going to be the one who gets off the right move first? My opponent. And this is the same case with Knuckles and Buzzwole.
>Knuckles will know when to use his moves depending on the situation thanks to he's greater skill, inteligence and ability to make better strategies on the times he was the commander of the resistance
And this is all completely irrelevant since Knuckles will not know what Buzzwole is weak to when this fight starts. Being great at strategy =/= being able to know ones natural weaknesses.
>if he's being drained he can use Power Flash to stun him
Stunning Buzzwole wouldnt stop the life draining, especially if Buzzwole is using its stingers.
>if he's being countered he can use the wisps and Thunder Arrow and if he's using stat boosts he can use Power Flash or the wisps
None of this will, again, actually stop the powers from being used. They arent actual counters.
>or if he heals he can just use Violet Void and Indigo Asteiroid to make sure he doesn't again, Knuckles greater arsenal just means that he has more responses to what Buzzwole can do, and Knuckles is used to dealing with many choices since he lead a army
You keep mixing "He can do x" with "He will do x". Stop doing this. What Knuckles can do and what he will actually do, right away, are 2 very different things. Yes, he has a greater arsenal and more options, but that only worsens him when he now has to choose between which option will help. Meanwhile, all of Buzzwoles options are smaller than Knuckles and they will all help him, so it doesnt matter what option he chooses to start with.
This is yet again another disadvantage that the Knuckles side chooses to ignore acting like it doesnt matter when it definitely does.
>Thunder arrow is undodgeble and Buzzwole can't counter while he's stunned by Power Flash
"Undodgeable" is also another No Limits Fallacy the way your making this sound. So no.
Especially since Buzzwole is ludicriously faster than Knuckles without speed being equalized.
>Zygard coming to fight them is still vague, he could just think that nobody in Alola can defeat them and come to help save the pokemon before they cause some trouble
The Ultra Beasts on numerous occasions are regarded as beings who are threats to all Pokemon, so this rebuttal right here is already most-definitely wrong.
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Dude, it was already added, give it up.
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>Knuckles will not get easily hit because he has more variety, more techniques, more abilities, much smarter, and more versatile.
This has absolutely nothing to do with being able to dodge an attack, so this is just nonsense. No offense.
>Really? Let's say Buzzwole uses any one of his abilities right? Knuckles could formulate a strategy where he could trick him with an after image, dig into the ground, and use "uppercut" to bypass his durability. Invisibility will give Knuckles an edge yes, that'll make things even more easier so none of these points are "useless" lmao.
"Could formulate" is not the same as "will formulate" for one. Two, I blatantly said Invisibility would help, but it wont if Knuckles wont actually use it early enough. Three, your assuming that Knuckles will do this fast enough before Buzzwole either dodges or just uses Counter to reflect Uppercut right back at Knuckles.
>The only person that's been able to outsmart Knuckles was Eggman and Eggman has an IQ of 300 lol
Cute. Alakazam is a pokemon who has an IQ of 5000 with infinitely expanding brain-cells. And he's a non-legendary Pokemon at that.
Eggman needing to outsmart Knuckles really doesnt help here. Like at all.
>No, they are both planet level. That's assuming "Power Up Punch" will even land on Knuckles to begin with.
"Both planet level" doesnt matter. Buzzwole is at a higher end of Planet level than Knuckles is. Same tier, but not to the same extent. Also, Power Up Punch doesnt need to land on Knuckles to increase Buzzwole's AP. Even if Knuckles just blocks the hit, Buzzwole making a hit period will increase his power.
'>'Violet Void. Knuckles will make use of whatever is in his arsenal to overcome his opponents
Not if its not in character for him to do that. Again, stop ignoring this.
>The "Leech Life" drains the users blood as stated on Buzzwoles profile and in the Pokemon games itself.
And I already countered this a while ago. Leech Life is able to drain energy too, as the anime shows, and it draining only blood still doesnt matter. The same result will happen: Buzzwole healing itself.
> Knuckles's Nocturnal Blade is much better because it can literally drain the actual life energy of the user and add it to his own. So, in order for Buzzwole to leech Knuckle's life away he'd have to actually sting him, drain his blood, and add it to his own. Knuckles could use the Power Flash to stop time for 10 seconds and could use the Nocturnal Blade to drain his life or the Violet Void to bypass his durability and kill him.
Nocturnal Blade is optional equipment, which Cal strictly said is not being allowed in this fight. So this already doesnt matter.
>And he will. If Buzzwole is going to use his full power and utilize all his skills? It'll only make sense for Knuckles to reciprocate by using the best counters against the abilities that'll be used against him.
And he wont. Because unlike Buzzwole, Knuckles has too many abilities to sort through to quickly figure out which specific ones will benefit him the most. It's like I said above. Someone who has 1000 type of powers but can only make use of 10 in a fight will not find out which 10 will be useful compared to someone who has 500 type of powers but has 450 of them that are useful.
> Knuckles by default has a greater chance of winning BECAUSE he's got more abilities than Buzzwole
See above. Having more abilities doesnt automatically increase your chances. In this situation it lowers your chances because you have to figure out which specific moves in your arsenal will get the job down.
Buzzwole has like 15 powers that make up his whole arsenal and they will all help him while Knuckles has like at least 40+ amount of powers in his whole arsenal where only a few will be useful against Buzzwole. Buzzwole will be the one to figure out which moves will do good against Knuckle faster than Knuckles can determine what can be good against Buzzwole.
>Since you admit that Buzzwole is inferior in intelligence. That means, Knuckles has the edge in this battle. Knuckles is smarter, therefore he'll be more adept at situations, developing strategies
By like...a bit. Not exactly an advantage. And this was before I remembered Alakazam being a thing.
>In Pokemon when a characters takes damage from a type they are weak against? They are finished. Knuckles has fire manipulation. Knuckles also has his maximum heat attack which attacks the person as he's gliding, so this should also be Buzzwole's weakness as he's susceptible to flying type attacks.
Type advantage only works against a mon when the opponent has = or more power than them. Knuckles is starting out this match already weaker than Buzzwole, who has multiple methods of increasing its stats. And to top that off, ways of healing himself.
So Knuckles using super effective moves will not be as effective as your making them out to be.
The arguments for Knuckles have been dismantled and im still keeping my vote with Buzzwole.
This has absolutely nothing to do with being able to dodge an attack, so this is just nonsense. No offense.
>Really? Let's say Buzzwole uses any one of his abilities right? Knuckles could formulate a strategy where he could trick him with an after image, dig into the ground, and use "uppercut" to bypass his durability. Invisibility will give Knuckles an edge yes, that'll make things even more easier so none of these points are "useless" lmao.
"Could formulate" is not the same as "will formulate" for one. Two, I blatantly said Invisibility would help, but it wont if Knuckles wont actually use it early enough. Three, your assuming that Knuckles will do this fast enough before Buzzwole either dodges or just uses Counter to reflect Uppercut right back at Knuckles.
>The only person that's been able to outsmart Knuckles was Eggman and Eggman has an IQ of 300 lol
Cute. Alakazam is a pokemon who has an IQ of 5000 with infinitely expanding brain-cells. And he's a non-legendary Pokemon at that.
Eggman needing to outsmart Knuckles really doesnt help here. Like at all.
>No, they are both planet level. That's assuming "Power Up Punch" will even land on Knuckles to begin with.
"Both planet level" doesnt matter. Buzzwole is at a higher end of Planet level than Knuckles is. Same tier, but not to the same extent. Also, Power Up Punch doesnt need to land on Knuckles to increase Buzzwole's AP. Even if Knuckles just blocks the hit, Buzzwole making a hit period will increase his power.
'>'Violet Void. Knuckles will make use of whatever is in his arsenal to overcome his opponents
Not if its not in character for him to do that. Again, stop ignoring this.
>The "Leech Life" drains the users blood as stated on Buzzwoles profile and in the Pokemon games itself.
And I already countered this a while ago. Leech Life is able to drain energy too, as the anime shows, and it draining only blood still doesnt matter. The same result will happen: Buzzwole healing itself.
> Knuckles's Nocturnal Blade is much better because it can literally drain the actual life energy of the user and add it to his own. So, in order for Buzzwole to leech Knuckle's life away he'd have to actually sting him, drain his blood, and add it to his own. Knuckles could use the Power Flash to stop time for 10 seconds and could use the Nocturnal Blade to drain his life or the Violet Void to bypass his durability and kill him.
Nocturnal Blade is optional equipment, which Cal strictly said is not being allowed in this fight. So this already doesnt matter.
>And he will. If Buzzwole is going to use his full power and utilize all his skills? It'll only make sense for Knuckles to reciprocate by using the best counters against the abilities that'll be used against him.
And he wont. Because unlike Buzzwole, Knuckles has too many abilities to sort through to quickly figure out which specific ones will benefit him the most. It's like I said above. Someone who has 1000 type of powers but can only make use of 10 in a fight will not find out which 10 will be useful compared to someone who has 500 type of powers but has 450 of them that are useful.
> Knuckles by default has a greater chance of winning BECAUSE he's got more abilities than Buzzwole
See above. Having more abilities doesnt automatically increase your chances. In this situation it lowers your chances because you have to figure out which specific moves in your arsenal will get the job down.
Buzzwole has like 15 powers that make up his whole arsenal and they will all help him while Knuckles has like at least 40+ amount of powers in his whole arsenal where only a few will be useful against Buzzwole. Buzzwole will be the one to figure out which moves will do good against Knuckle faster than Knuckles can determine what can be good against Buzzwole.
>Since you admit that Buzzwole is inferior in intelligence. That means, Knuckles has the edge in this battle. Knuckles is smarter, therefore he'll be more adept at situations, developing strategies
By like...a bit. Not exactly an advantage. And this was before I remembered Alakazam being a thing.
>In Pokemon when a characters takes damage from a type they are weak against? They are finished. Knuckles has fire manipulation. Knuckles also has his maximum heat attack which attacks the person as he's gliding, so this should also be Buzzwole's weakness as he's susceptible to flying type attacks.
Type advantage only works against a mon when the opponent has = or more power than them. Knuckles is starting out this match already weaker than Buzzwole, who has multiple methods of increasing its stats. And to top that off, ways of healing himself.
So Knuckles using super effective moves will not be as effective as your making them out to be.
The arguments for Knuckles have been dismantled and im still keeping my vote with Buzzwole.
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.Theuser789 said:
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I was typing before I saw Cal and others agree to it being added as an Incon.Theuser789 said:
So nvm.
