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Knuckles vs Buzzwole

>You're assuming Knuckles would get easily hit by all these different abilities and techiques from Buzzwole.

No more than you assuming Buzzwole would easily get hit by Knuckles techniques as well.

> Knuckles could forumlate strategies like creating after images, digging into the ground to avoid attacks, or become invisbile via Jade Ghost.

The first 2 points are just completely useless. Invisibility would be the only thing that would be useful and this is assuming Knuckles will use this early enough before Buzzwole can gain an edge.

>Knuckles could dig into the ground and could attack with "uppercut" which negates durability. Knuckles could also punch the ground hard enough to create a shock wave that disorientates, dizzies opponents, or causes a small volcanic eruption.

All of this is useless too. Buzzwole has flight so all of this "digging into the grounds" strategies are not gonna be useful here in the slightest.

> Knuckles's attack I think is more effective since he can use the shockwave to disorientate Buzzwhole and one shot him with "uppercut"

Not only is this useless, but Buzzwole has the AP advantage from the start and has more ways of buffing its stats than Knuckles does. One of which, Power Up Punch, will constantly increase Buzzwoles AP for every hit. He isnt one-shotting.

>Use one of the Color Powers to kill him completely. He could also use his Nocturnal Blade to use his own Life-Absorption abilities on Buzzwole.

Which power? And how likely is it that Knuckles will use the one specific one that would actually give him an advantage? And as for Nocturnal Blade, this was already brought up and I countered it with Buzzwole having its own life-absorbing abilities.

>I'm sorry, but I don't see how Buzzwole can win when Knuckles has so many abilities to choose from and more variety in his techiques.

Knuckles is more versatile yes, but it comes down to whether or not Knuckles will decide to use the right abilities early on.

>Knuckles is also smarter, since he's a martial arts master and fought many skilled combatants like Sonic. Buzzwole seems to be about average or not very smart, unless you could prove otherwise.

I already addressed this too. Buzzwole is a fighting type so its already naturally adept at the martial arts combat variety. Buzzwole has also not only made quick short work of well trained experienced pokemon like Ash's Pikachu, it's also comparable to the likes of the Tapu guardians who are very experienced in themselves for being able to train other pokemon and even fight the legendary mon Solgaleo and Lunala in a long drawn out battle. Buzzwole may be inferior in intelligence (which I can accept) but definitely not as much as people are making it out to be. It's not some mindless creature that can be toyed with easily.

Still keeping my vote with Buzzwole as before.
 
Didn't I say no optional equipment? Why's the Nocturne Blade being brought up still?
 
The wisps are something that Knuckles will use in character though, he used them plenty in Runners and was the one that gave wispons to the Oc.

Knuckles was also a war general as well, so he definaly has a inteligence advantage, you still have to explain if Buzzlord actualy outskilled Pikachu or if him simply speedblitized and overpowered him, you yourself said that was a diference between that

Buzzlord barely has a AP advantage, meanwhile Knuckles is unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons, Buzzlord is not as strong as you think in this matchup, what does he start in character? Because you are assuming that he will use the right moves to beat Knuckles even though he has no experience on fighting a being like Knuckles

Every time that he's using a wisp power-up he's invulnarable, there's also the invencinbility monitor as well, and the fire shield and thunder shield can negate Buzzlord elemental attacks as well, and as show in Mania ice is inefective, Knuckles is resistant to extreme cold

And Knuckles resists poison and chemical products, so Buzzwole toxic or lech life are useless against Knuckles

And godhand is right that uppercut will work, that move negates durability so it can definaly one-shoot:Durability Negation (With Uppercut)

Anyways I still vote for Knuckles, most of Buzzwole reasons are that he will use the exact moves that will beat Knuckles with nothing indicating that he will use them in character especialy since he doesn't have prior knowledge, meanwhile Knuckles has more experience and skill to use the right moves to finish the fight, especialy since he's used to making strategies due to being the leader of the resistance, and Knuckles resists most of Buzzwole efective moves plus he can hit him with his weakeness to fire and wind, as well as the wisps to close the gap or give him invulnerability, power flash to stun him for 10 seconds and the shields to give him imunity to Buzzwole elemental attacks and uppercut to one-shoot since that move negates durability, also thunder arrow to hit him out of the sky

The only win-con is he using moves to stat boost him and counter, and if he uses this Knuckles simply can use either power flash or thunder arrow and the wisps, but nothing implies that Buzzwole is going to use that strategy against a unknow enemy, especialy since Knuckles is more versatile, is smarter, is skilled, and makes more strategies on the fly like show in Forces, most of the resons for Buzzwole are wrong or invalid

Kunckles can also just heal himself with Knuckles heal or use the wisps and the invencinbility monitor to counter his life draining moves, also nothing indicates that Buzzwole is going to use them as effectively as you imply, even if he uses those moves Knuckles simply can retreate and use the wisps, thunder arrow or power flash.

The Tapus are nowhere as skilled as Knuckles, he fought beings with thousands of years of experience and is a martial arts master and has lead a army which requeries making plenty of strategies, none that Buzzwole has

Also Jade Ghost makes Knuckles non-corporeal as well as invisible, and Buzzwole doesn't have non-physical interaction, so Knuckles could simply use it when Buzzwole starts to stat amp himself, use counter or his life-draining moves, Knuckles has a answer to almost every move of Buzzwole, plus his skill and inteligence advantage gives him the win
 
7-10 for Buzzwole, it's grace. I would like if people read my posts explaining that Buzzwole win-con are way smaller than Knuckles and also more unlikely to happen, Knuckles has a answer to everything Buzzwole can do

8-10 now.

9-10 now
 
If there's only a difference of three or less, then it ends up as inconclusive rather than a win/loss. That said, Knuckles FRA.

While Knuckles is an absolute dunce and kind of a moron, he's proven himself as a capable fighter and leader/strategist. While it was a losing battle, he lead the resistance for months on end and has at least some decent tactical capacity. He isn't a mindless brute who will tank everything because he can, he's going play it "smart" (if you can call it that, ha). He was capable of fighting toe-to-toe with Sonic for a reason.

Also, Knuckles isn't a sitting duck on the ground. If this is NYC by SBA and Knuckles can't even land a good hit in, he isn't gonna just sit there. Gliding is his thing, so of course he's gonna try and adapt by getting into a position where he ca glide. Especially when his opponent is flying above him and out of reach like a mosquito (No offense to Buzzwole lol).
 
ShakeResounding said:
If there's only a difference of three or less, then it ends up as inconclusive rather than a win/loss. That said, Knuckles FRA.
While Knuckles is an absolute dunce and kind of a moron, he's proven himself as a capable fighter and leader/strategist. While it was a losing battle, he lead the resistance for months on end and has at least some decent tactical capacity. He isn't a mindless brute who will tank everything because he can, he's going play it "smart" (if you can call it that, ha). He was capable of fighting toe-to-toe with Sonic for a reason.

Also, Knuckles isn't a sitting duck on the ground. If this is NYC by SBA and Knuckles can't even land a good hit in, he isn't gonna just sit there. Gliding is his thing, so of course he's gonna try and adapt by getting into a position where he ca glide. Especially when his opponent is flying above him and out of reach like a mosquito (No offense to Buzzwole lol).
Click to expand...
You underestimate mosquito, regular mosquito beat One punch man making him tier -1

Seriosly though, how is he going to hit the bug when he spams double team? Gods have trouble with hitting anything with double team and swagger makes things worse.
 
I mean, once he gets hit by Power Flash once he's gonna use Taunt and goodbye to that.
 
But he will be frozen for 10 seconds before he can use any move, he would taunt only after those 10 seconds where Knuckles can hit him freely, he could just beat him in those, especialy since uppercut negates durability
 
>Knuckles was also a war general as well, so he definaly has a inteligence advantage, you still have to explain if Buzzlord actualy outskilled Pikachu or if him simply speedblitized and overpowered him, you yourself said that was a diference between that

While this is good, this is not exactly impressive in terms of being in combat yourself. Being a war general is no different than being a pokemon trainer, your just shouting directions. Shouting directions and then using those strategies for yourself while your battling mid combat are 2 different things. Thats like saying Ash is a combat expert since he can plan and give strategies to the ones who can actually perform them, his pokemon.

And yes, Buzzwole outskilled Pikachu. Every attack Pikachu made against Buzzwole, Buzzwole simply dodged and smacked him away. He didnt just overpower and one shot from the start.

>Buzzlord barely has a AP advantage, meanwhile Knuckles is unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons, Buzzlord is not as strong as you think in this matchup, what does he start in character? Because you are assuming that he will use the right moves to beat Knuckles even though he has no experience on fighting a being like Knuckles

For one, Buzzwole doesnt have an in-character mindset since he only has, like, one actual appearance. Two, Buzzwoles arsenal is far smaller than Knuckles so this isnt the same thing. Buzzwole will be more likely to use the moves that would benefit it due to having limited versatility. And three, its not just about having an AP advantage but also having multiple ways to keep having the AP advantage. Buzzwole has multiple ways of buffing stats, one which can do it constantly, while Knuckles only has 1 method and thats from an attack.

>Every time that he's using a wisp power-up he's invulnarable, there's also the invencinbility monitor as well, and the fire shield and thunder shield can negate Buzzlord elemental attacks as well, and as show in Mania ice is inefective, Knuckles is resistant to extreme cold

Against a being stronger than him? Yeah im calling NLF on that invulnerability. The fire and thunder shields wont work since not only does Buzzwole not have a fire move, but Buzzwole's elemental attacks are physical ones. Even if the elemental aspect is negated, the punch isnt. And with higher AP, Buzzwole will simply smash through them with sheer force. Also, resistance to extreme cold =/= being resistant to freezing, which Ice Punch can induce as a status.

Not to mention Paralysis from Thunder Punch too, which will be extremely bad if Knuckles gets paralyzed here.

>And Knuckles resists poison and chemical products, so Buzzwole toxic or lech life are useless against Knuckles.

Buzzwole doesnt have Toxic as a move and his life draining abilities are not poison or chemical based, so this is just completely irrelevant.

>And godhand is right that uppercut will work, that move negates durability so it can definaly one-shoot:Durability Negation (With Uppercut)

Except he isnt right since that move is done by Knuckles first digging into the ground to use it. Buzzwole flies, so that move will be completely useless. Also, Uppercut means that its a physical move, which Buzzwole can again reflect right back at Knuckles using Counter. So even if Knuckles was able to somehow hit Buzzwole with it, it wont do anything.

>Anyways I still vote for Knuckles, most of Buzzwole reasons are that he will use the exact moves that will beat Knuckles with nothing indicating that he will use them in character especialy since he doesn't have prior knowledge, meanwhile Knuckles has more experience and skill to use the right moves to finish the fight.

See above. Also, its absolutely false that you think Knuckles will use the moves that will benefit him before Buzzwole does. He mas a much bigger arsenal in versatility, so that means the likelyhood of using those abilities early on is much lower. Its like looking in a pile of junk for one thing that you like, especially since Knuckles also doesnt have prior knowledge of Buzzwole.

>especialy since he's used to making strategies due to being the leader of the resistance, and Knuckles resists most of Buzzwole efective moves plus he can hit him with his weakeness to fire and wind, as well as the wisps to close the gap or give him invulnerability, power flash to stun him for 10 seconds and the shields to give him imunity to Buzzwole elemental attacks and uppercut to one-shoot since that move negates durability, also thunder arrow to hit him out of the sky

Already addressed all of this, so see above for this too.

>The Tapus are nowhere as skilled as Knuckles, he fought beings with thousands of years of experience and is a martial arts master and has lead a army which requeries making plenty of strategies, none that Buzzwole has

And so are the Tapu, whove also existed for thousands of years since Alola first came to be and ever since, have branded the Alola region with people Z-rings and Z-moves who are worthy and skilled enough to have them. They have also trained other skilled pokemon like Tapu Koko training Ash's Pikachu in multiple encounters. Adding to that, the Tapu have still battled against Solgaleo and Lunala (not to mention Necrozma as well), beings from other universes like all the UBs are.

Being a martial arts master, again, is irrelevant against someone whos naturally a master at that via its typing. Buzzwole may be inferior in intelligence, but only by a bit. He's not getting easily outsmarted as you make it out to be.

>Also Jade Ghost makes Knuckles non-corporeal as well as invisible, and Buzzwole doesn't have non-physical Interaction

Wrong, all Pokemon in the verse in general have non-physical interaction via interacting with ghost types. This has been accepted for quite a while now, just hasnt been updated to all the pages.

Also, Knuckles doesnt have Non-Corporeality on his page either, so this doesnt matter.

Still voting for Buzzwole.
 
Knuckles fought with his army, unlike Ash, so that's a bad comparassion. Dodging attacks is not outskilling someone, he just used his massive speed advantage, then his Ap advantage, that's not outskilling someone.

Then you can't say that Buzzwole will use the right moves, use what he did in his mindset when he fought, he still fought one time use that don't expect him to know the right moves or strategies, you need to prove that he will use them agaisnt a unknow enemy.

Buzzwole doesn't have that much of a AP advantage, it's only at best 1.2 times and Knuckles can't die when using a wisp, it's not a NLF when he's barely stronger when it becomes negible. Knuckles can break of ice in one second as proven in the Heavy Shinobi fight, and being frozen doesn't hurt him as proven in Mania, the elemental attacks will still be inefective and Buzzwole is barely stronger, and the Thunder Shield negates all eletrick tipe attacks which will include paralisys.

Knuckles is smatter, he will realise whichoves are better due to his experience in fighting, especialy since you implied that Buzzwole only fought once, Knuckles can just choose the better option, you haven't proved that Buzzwole will do the same, you can't just make assumptions that he will choose the right strategy because of his smaller arsenal.

Has Buzzwole fought and outskilled the Tapus so that you can scale them? You need proof not just assumptions

Because the efects of Jade Ghost hadn't been update on the profiles, but they indeed are non-corporeal
 
>Knuckles fought with his army, unlike Ash, so that's a bad comparassion.

As in Knuckles fighting alongside them mid-combat and not standing in the back shouting directions and what to do? Because thats not what a General does.

>Dodging attacks is not outskilling someone, he just used his massive speed advantage, then his Ap advantage, that's not outskilling someone.

It very much is so when the one whos getting fodderized, Pikachu, is unable to do a single thing to him despite the years of experience it has from all the Regions Ash has visited.

>Then you can't say that Buzzwole will use the right moves, use what he did in his mindset when he fought, he still fought one time use that don't expect him to know the right moves or strategies, you need to prove that he will use them agaisnt a unknow enemy.

Thats not how in-character works and it would be very unfair to do so. Buzzwole's only real shown appearance in battle is him easily beating fodder to the point where he doesnt even need to use any actual attacks to beat them. Your point would be more solid if he was fighting against someone whos actually on his level of stats.

That said, Buzzwole in the same episode was shown to spam it's stingers life absorbing hax to absorb other mon's life energy, so this would be a start if nothing else would be in-character. That, or his stat buffs since they are all fighting-type moves, which is Buzzwole's natural typing.

>Buzzwole doesn't have that much of a AP advantage, it's only at best 1.2 times and Knuckles can't die when using a wisp, it's not a NLF when he's barely stronger when it becomes negible.

If there's no evidence of the Invulnerability lasting against stronger beings then yes its an NLF no matter whether the gap is big or small. Buzzwole at the end of the day is still starting this match out stronger than Knuckles. Simple as that.

>Knuckles can break of ice in one second as proven in the Heavy Shinobi fight, and being frozen doesn't hurt him as proven in Mania

This is only the case if the ice is comparable to Buzzwoles. An ice inducement from a 5-B is pretty much going to be very much harder to deal with.

>the elemental attacks will still be inefective and Buzzwole is barely stronger, and the Thunder Shield negates all eletrick tipe attacks which will include paralisys.

But the punches wont be. So Buzzwole smashes through the shield with a punch, even if the elemental aspects are negated.

>Knuckles is smatter, he will realise whichoves are better due to his experience in fighting, especialy since you implied that Buzzwole only fought once

He didnt fight "only once", but was only shown to fight only once on screen. There's a difference.

>you can't just make assumptions that he will choose the right strategy because of his smaller arsenal.

But I most definitely can say that Buzzwole will use the moves that it will benefit it much sooner than Knuckles will. Because of having a smaller arsenal, Buzzwoles options are limited so there's only so much for it to choose from and actually do. He wont beat around the bush but get right to the punch. Knuckles on the other hand has so many more things in versalilty, its like finding a needle in a hay stack when it comes to choosing a move to use. He has many more options, which will make him less likely to choose the specific abilities that will benefit him the most right away. Buzzwole's arsenal is simple and straight forward, while Knuckles arsenal is not.

>Has Buzzwole fought and outskilled the Tapus so that you can scale them? You need proof not just assumptions

Yes. While it was off-screen, Buzzwole takes on the Tapu's in the game. When Buzzwole and other Ultra Beasts come to Alola, the Tapu's immediately come to Alola's defense to battle them.

Besides, an Ultra Beast in general are regarded as threats to all Pokemon, so that would make them pretty hard to deal with in combat right there.

>Because the efects of Jade Ghost hadn't been update on the profiles, but they indeed are non-corporeal

Fair here i'll say.
 
Yes, Knuckles did fight with them mid-combat plenty of times.

Pikachu can't do anything because Buzzwole is literaly thousands of times faster than him, that's gotta nothing to do with skill, he simply overpowered and speedblitized here.

Life-hax is counterd by Power Flash and the wisps. And it isn't unfair, you need to prove that he will use those right attacks, not just make assumptions.

The invunerability does work on stronger beings, and Buzzwole might not even have a AP advantage because Knuckles is already unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons.

Knuckles could tank those attacks from a low-6-B when he also was that tier, since he got stronger so did his ice imunity.

Having a smaller arsenal doesn't mean that he will choose the right strategy or moves, that assumes that he's going to use a diferent move everytime he attacks until he finds the right one, you need to prove that in Buzz character to keep using diferent moves until one works, and Knuckles knows what moves he has and what they do, he knows which moves are better for each situation, the size of a arsenal is literaly irrelevant when Knuckles knows which moves he has and can use, the characters don't act like slot machines until they use the right move, they will use what they do in character first, and from what you said is physical attacks and life draining attacks, and Uppercut will work since Knuckles can hit him out of the sky with thunder arrow and power flash, and then use that move

Being a threat to all pokemon is a increlible vague statment that can mean many things, it does not mean anything about skill.

And Knuckles will use the better moves due to his skill, inteligence, and strategy advantage that Buzzwole doesn't have, they aren't gonna to pick moves until they find the right ones, that's not how it works at all, what determines that is the ability to make strategies, to know which moves are better for each situation, in which Knuckles is better
 
Just in case anyone forgot, the Planet level feat Pokemon has was done by Xerneas at near death, so they're also unquantifiable above it as well.
 
"Having a smaller arsenal doesn't mean that he will choose the right strategy or moves, that assumes that he's going to use a diferent move everytime he attacks until he finds the right one, you need to prove that in Buzz character to keep using diferent moves until one works, and Knuckles knows what moves he has and what they do, he knows which moves are better for each situation, the size of a arsenal is literaly irrelevant when Knuckles knows which moves he has and can use, the characters don't act like slot machines until they use the right move, they will use what they do in character first, and from what you said is physical attacks and life draining attacks, and Uppercut will work since Knuckles can hit him out of the sky with thunder arrow and power flash, and then use that move"

Well, if a move dosn't do anything, he just uses something different. Its common sense that you don't just do the samething over and over again to something that resists it. While he will start with life draining and punching moves, he can just switch to things like ice puch, or thunder punch, wich are still punches. As for the electricity, when fly is used, thunder, thunderbolt, etc all miss when used despite being shown to come out of the sky.

"Being a threat to all pokemon is a increlible vague statment that can mean many things, it does not mean anything about skill."

It means that it has enough either sheer power or skill to pose a threat to all pokemon. It can be interprited either way.
 
Except that they will work, Knuckles doesn't resist draining, it's just that Knuckles can counter that, and Knuckles resists ice as I explained and the eletric shield negates eletrecity, and this isn't a pokemon battle, thunder arrow can attack fying opponents. He isn't going to switch until he finds the perfect strategy especialy since Knuckles is smarter. My argument is that Buzzwole won't use the right moves with the right strategies to beat Knuckles when he doesn't know him, meanwhile Knuckles can because of his greater inteligence and experience in making startegies in Forces

That statment has nothing to do with skill, being MFTL and 5-B is already a threat to all pokemon when most aren't 5-B and below the speed of light
 
>Pikachu can't do anything because Buzzwole is literaly thousands of times faster than him, that's gotta nothing to do with skill, he simply overpowered and speedblitized here.

And if Buzzwole immediately blitzed and one shotted Pikachu instead of easily keeping up with, avoiding and smacking away Pikachus and its attacks, i'd be more inclined to agree with you. But that's not what happened.

>Life-hax is counterd by Power Flash and the wisps. And it isn't unfair, you need to prove that he will use those right attacks, not just make assumptions

Power Flash only paralyzes for 10 seconds, it doesnt stop life hax. And the wisps are something Knuckles will not immediately go for as already pointed out.

And yes, using the only on-screen battle appearance of Buzzwole battling where its facing and stomping beings who are fodder to it casually as a means of in-character status is very unfair because its not a real depiction of Buzzwole's battling capabilities. Had he been fighting another Ultra Beast and did the same thing, i'd agree with you. But against a regular pokemon? I dont think so.

>The invunerability does work on stronger beings, and Buzzwole might not even have a AP advantage because Knuckles is already unquantifiable above 614 Zettatons.

Evidence of it working on stronger beings? And what? Unquantifiably being above 614 Z is vs someone whos comparable to mon that are comparable to mon who are => Perfect Zygarde, whos much stronger than Yveltal and Xerneas, the latter who did a 717 Z feat while dying isnt showing a clear AP advantage?

>Knuckles could tank those attacks from a low-6-B when he also was that tier, since he got stronger so did his ice imunity.

Resistance, not immunity. And im pretty sure thats not how resistance works but I could be wrong about how ice resistance is treated here.

>Having a smaller arsenal doesn't mean that he will choose the right strategy or moves, that assumes that he's going to use a diferent move everytime he attacks until he finds the right one

For one, most of the moves that will help Buzzwole here are fighting type ones, which is its natural typing. So the likelyhood of it not choosing those moves is extremely unlikely.

Two, having a smaller arsenal does mean that Buzzwole will go for those moves. Buzzwole will clearly not use the same move more than once if its not going to work the first time, as thats common sense. Again, Buzzwole does not have as many options to choose from as Knuckles does in terms of move selection, so there's 0 reason why Buzzwole will not go for a benefical move. At least not before Knuckles does. One has a straight forward arsenal while the other has one thats much more complicated and diverse. Saying Knuckles will immediately go for one of the few moves that can gain an edge over Buzzwole is ridculous while in Buzzwoles case the moves that will help against Knuckles are pretty much the only moves it has.

>and Knuckles knows what moves he has and what they do, he knows which moves are better for each situation, the size of a arsenal is literaly irrelevant when Knuckles knows which moves he has and can use


And you act like Buzzwole doesnt know what moves it has or can use too. Neither one has any info on each other before this match, so there's no way that either one will know what will do best against the other immediately.

But the factor that comes down to this is the options to choose from. Buzzwole has much fewer options than Knuckles and most of its arsenal will help against Knuckles since its mostly stat buffing, punching moves and physical attack reflection. Thats the gist of what Buzzwole can do, so Buzzwole is much more likely to use those moves before Knuckles can use his. Knuckles may have moves that will work, but he has too big of an arsenal to narrow down whats going to work the best and immediately use it.

>and Uppercut will work since Knuckles can hit him out of the sky with thunder arrow and power flash, and then use that move

And again, your still acting like Buzzwole wont just dodge those attacks or even worse just reflect Uppercut back at Knuckles using Counter.

>"Being a threat to all pokemon is a increlible vague statment that can mean many things, it does not mean anything about skill."

Someone already addressed this but even so, the UBs were a big enough threat to where the strongest of the non-Ultra Beast 5-B mon, Perfect Zygarde, had to leave Kalos and come to Alola, a foreign region. Plus, legendaries in themselves are very skilled and experienced pokemon so being a threat to them would be saying something about the skills of the threatener. I'll be back later to address any more rebuttals.
 
But that still isn't skill, dodging attacks from someone thousands of times slower than you isn't skill

10 to 20 seconds, and it's plenty enough of time, and you can't just make up what Buzzwole can do, even with fewer appereances you still use what's in character, I could just say the same and say that Knuckles will imediately use Power Flash and Indigo asteiroid with this logic of making stuff up for what they can do in character since Knuckles hasn't fought much in the modern era .

They never fought Zygard, for all we know he could stomp them, so we can't say that they are comparable, and it works on Chaos 6 and Perfect Chaos and Dark Gaia if you use them.

I was wrong, it's imunity, the ice attacks don't harm Knuckles.

It isn't ridiculous when Knuckles know all of his own moves and when to use them, they aren't slot machines that keep changing moves until the one it works, you need to prove that he will use them, meanwhile Knuckles greater inteligence and making strategies will know when to use his moves, also Knuckles has way more moves that are effective on Buzzwole.

Knuckles will know when to use his moves depending on the situation thanks to he's greater skill, inteligence and ability to make better strategies on the times he was the commander of the resistance,if he's being drained he can use Power Flash to stun him, if he's being countered he can use the wisps and Thunder Arrow and if he's using stat boosts he can use Power Flash or the wisps, or if he heals he can just use Violet Void and Indigo Asteiroid to make sure he doesn't again, Knuckles greater arsenal just means that he has more responses to what Buzzwole can do, and Knuckles is used to dealing with many choices since he lead a army

Thunder arrow is undodgeble and Buzzwole can't counter while he's stunned by Power Flash

Zygard coming to fight them is still vague, he could just think that nobody in Alola can defeat them and come to help save the pokemon before they cause some trouble, as I said Zygard could in the future one-shoot them, that statment is too vague and has nothing on skill since being he's already a threat via being faster and stronger than most pokemon
 
Thunder arrow is undodgeble and Buzzwole can't counter while he's stunned by Power Flash

Thunder arrow is undodgeble

(See the falacy?)

Buzwole has dodged undogable attacks like smart strike using moves like fly. This should be no different.

It isn't ridiculous when Knuckles know all of his own moves and when to use them, they aren't slot machines that keep changing moves until the one it works, you need to prove that he will use them, meanwhile Knuckles greater inteligence and making strategies will know when to use his moves, also Knuckles has way more moves that are effective on Buzzwole.

Wait, they do use moves that are more effective, battling them makes them use the move that is best against you, or the one that has the most effect.
 
This isn't a pokemon battle, thunder arrow can hit flying oponents, it has done so multiple times, those moves aren't undodgeble since they can't hit flying oponents, unlike thunder arrow

That's you choosing those moves in the game, not the pokemon by itself, again this isn't a pokemon battle, you would need to prove it that he would do that in character, I can say the same that Knuckles will use Power Flash and then imediately use Violet Void since it's the most efective
 
The next time someone says, "No optional equipment" the OP NEEDS to specify "no optional equipment" because all I see is "Knuckles vs Buzzwole. Speed Equalized" in the OP. Nothing says that the characters can't use "optional equpiment" lol.

Either way, it doesn't matter now. Knuckles has access to every ability in his arsenal, I still can't see Buzzwole winning this. Let's get back to some of these responses.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
>You're assuming Knuckles would get easily hit by all these different abilities and techiques from Buzzwole.

No more than you assuming Buzzwole would easily get hit by Knuckles techniques as well.

> Knuckles could forumlate strategies like creating after images, digging into the ground to avoid attacks, or become invisbile via Jade Ghost.

The first 2 points are just completely useless. Invisibility would be the only thing that would be useful and this is assuming Knuckles will use this early enough before Buzzwole can gain an edge.

>Knuckles could dig into the ground and could attack with "uppercut" which negates durability. Knuckles could also punch the ground hard enough to create a shock wave that disorientates, dizzies opponents, or causes a small volcanic eruption.

All of this is useless too. Buzzwole has flight so all of this "digging into the grounds" strategies are not gonna be useful here in the slightest.

> Knuckles's attack I think is more effective since he can use the shockwave to disorientate Buzzwhole and one shot him with "uppercut"

Not only is this useless, but Buzzwole has the AP advantage from the start and has more ways of buffing its stats than Knuckles does. One of which, Power Up Punch, will constantly increase Buzzwoles AP for every hit. He isnt one-shotting.

>Use one of the Color Powers to kill him completely. He could also use his Nocturnal Blade to use his own Life-Absorption abilities on Buzzwole.

Which power? And how likely is it that Knuckles will use the one specific one that would actually give him an advantage? And as for Nocturnal Blade, this was already brought up and I countered it with Buzzwole having its own life-absorbing abilities.

>I'm sorry, but I don't see how Buzzwole can win when Knuckles has so many abilities to choose from and more variety in his techiques.

Knuckles is more versatile yes, but it comes down to whether or not Knuckles will decide to use the right abilities early on.

>Knuckles is also smarter, since he's a martial arts master and fought many skilled combatants like Sonic. Buzzwole seems to be about average or not very smart, unless you could prove otherwise.

I already addressed this too. Buzzwole is a fighting type so its already naturally adept at the martial arts combat variety. Buzzwole has also not only made quick short work of well trained experienced pokemon like Ash's Pikachu, it's also comparable to the likes of the Tapu guardians who are very experienced in themselves for being able to train other pokemon and even fight the legendary mon Solgaleo and Lunala in a long drawn out battle. Buzzwole may be inferior in intelligence (which I can accept) but definitely not as much as people are making it out to be. It's not some mindless creature that can be toyed with easily.

Still keeping my vote with Buzzwole as before.
Click to expand...
>No more than you assuming Buzzwole would easily get hit by Knuckles techniques as well.

Knuckles will not get easily hit because he has more variety, more techniques, more abilities, much smarter, and more versatile.

>The first 2 points are just completely useless. Invisibility would be the only thing that would be useful and this is assuming Knuckles will use this early enough before Buzzwole can gain an edge.

Really? Let's say Buzzwole uses any one of his abilities right? Knuckles could formulate a strategy where he could trick him with an after image, dig into the ground, and use "uppercut" to bypass his durability. Invisibility will give Knuckles an edge yes, that'll make things even more easier so none of these points are "useless" lmao.

>All of this is useless too. Buzzwole has flight so all of this "digging into the grounds" strategies are not gonna be useful here in the slightest.

It depends on whether or not Knuckles could do the strategy in time to take him out. I know Buzzwole can fly, but Knuckles legit could trick him. Knuckles is undoubtedly smarter than Buzzwole. Knuckles has thought up schemes to stop both Sonic and Tails in their path back in Sonic 3 and Knuckles. The only person that's been able to outsmart Knuckles was Eggman and Eggman has an IQ of 300 lol.

>Not only is this useless, but Buzzwole has the AP advantage from the start and has more ways of buffing its stats than Knuckles does. One of which, Power Up Punch, will constantly increase Buzzwoles AP for every hit. He isnt one-shotting.

No, they are both planet level. That's assuming "Power Up Punch" will even land on Knuckles to begin with. What if Knuckles evades? Digs into the ground? If Buzzwole flies, Knuckles already can maneuver in the air by gliding. I know he may not one shot, but Buzzwole suffers from having no variety in his attacks and skills compared to Knuckles.

>Which power? And how likely is it that Knuckles will use the one specific one that would actually give him an advantage? And as for Nocturnal Blade, this was already brought up and I countered it with Buzzwole having its own life-absorbing abilities.

Violet Void. Knuckles will make use of whatever is in his arsenal to overcome his opponents. The "Leech Life" drains the users blood as stated on Buzzwoles profile and in the Pokemon games itself. Knuckles's Nocturnal Blade is much better because it can literally drain the actual life energy of the user and add it to his own. So, in order for Buzzwole to leech Knuckle's life away he'd have to actually sting him, drain his blood, and add it to his own. Knuckles could use the Power Flash to stop time for 10 seconds and could use the Nocturnal Blade to drain his life or the Violet Void to bypass his durability and kill him.

>Knuckles is more versatile yes, but it comes down to whether or not Knuckles will decide to use the right abilities early on.

And he will. If Buzzwole is going to use his full power and utilize all his skills? It'll only make sense for Knuckles to reciprocate by using the best counters against the abilities that'll be used against him. Knuckles by default has a greater chance of winning BECAUSE he's got more abilities than Buzzwole.

>already addressed this too. Buzzwole is a fighting type so its already naturally adept at the martial arts combat variety. Buzzwole has also not only made quick short work of well trained experienced pokemon like Ash's Pikachu, it's also comparable to the likes of the Tapu guardians who are very experienced in themselves for being able to train other pokemon and even fight the legendary mon Solgaleo and Lunala in a long drawn out battle. Buzzwole may be inferior in intelligence (which I can accept) but definitely not as much as people are making it out to be. It's not some mindless creature that can be toyed with easily.

Still keeping my vote with Buzzwole as before.

Since you admit that Buzzwole is inferior in intelligence. That means, Knuckles has the edge in this battle. Knuckles is smarter, therefore he'll be more adept at situations, developing strategies, and because he has a bigger skill set and more abilities he's got everything he needs to counter Buzzwoles abilities which are miniscule in comparison. BTW, Knuckles has fire manipulation via the spiral upper and he's also got elemental manipulation of the ice, wind, fire, and earth varieties. This is also listed on his profile. In Pokemon when a characters takes damage from a type they are weak against? They are finished. Knuckles has fire manipulation. Knuckles also has his maximum heat attack which attacks the person as he's gliding, so this should also be Buzzwole's weakness as he's susceptible to flying type attacks.

Buzzwole should get an L here. Knuckles has too many abilities, powers, defenses, and is also a much smarter combatant.
 
No they havent and im going to make counters for the both of your arguments today (my bad, been kind of busy but i'll get to this.).
 
Yes they have been tied, count them, it has been 9-9 votes

Making counters is useless when the votes have been tied for at least 2 days, that's enough for a inconclusive
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Knuckles: 9 (Theuser789, ShadowWarrior1999, Hiryu-Z, HenryWong122, GlaceonGamez471, VioletVoid100, Godhand1999, ShakeResounding, Blueblur24)

Buzzwole: 9 (ProfessorKukui4Life, Dragonboi9191, TheArsenal1212, ChosenOrDeath, TriforcePower1, Abstractions, UltimateFlare, RotofBots, Everything12)
Click to expand...
 
And I responded to your counters, what you say isn't a 100% correct, nobody is a 100% correct

I already requested the matchup to be added, and using this logic I could say that your votes have been debunked for over a day so grace is over for Knuckles, so let's not go down that path
 
Counter vs counter, which leads to more countering from that, is definitely an Inconclusive when the votes are essentially tied. It's been two days of essentially nothing but that, and I don't think anybody is interested in two more lol.

This can probably be added as Inconclusive and closed tbh
 
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