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Kengan Speed CRT: To bullet time or to not bullet time?

Yeah, but Bando was spamming it in the fight, and everyone minus the fighters and a few special people could see what was happening. Plus, it was said that only a handful of the fighters could see it at that.
 
Also true, not disagreeing with that. Though I think any R1 or higher fighter was able to see it? It was impressively fast though. Maybe faster than regular Adam.
 
By the way everyone, I'm pretty sure some of the top tier characters in Kengan have the ability of 0.5 second. The attacking before the enemy can attack is definitely fitting that "Hitting the enemy just as they feel the instinct to attack" and such
 
Ciruno Fortes said:
Considering Raian's playstyle of literally going through anything with raw power and not use any techniques, I doubt he'd be the dodging type to be honest. He literally took all of Ohma's strikes and refused to use any techniques
Click to expand...
Raian at this point in the story was actively trying to use technique , and was also dodging attacks , literally the page after he fails to react to the crossbow he dodges an attack.

The rest of this is just nonsense:

Niko Stuff

This has been immensely bothering me all thread, even ignoring the narration blatantly states Niko cannot do anything after a bullet is fired, Niko literally scales to no one, the only interaction Niko has with anybody in the main KAT is young Ohma and by association young Kiryu and he trounces Ohma without much of a fight.

Even if Niko were a bullet timer, or hypersonic, this is really just desperately clinging to whatever scrap of evidence you have here that even just one person in Kengan might be bullet timing, the rest of Kengan doesn't scale to Niko clearly at all.

Baki and OPM

Who actually cares about either of those verses in the context of this discussion, this analogy barely makes sense anyway and what limitations or rules those verses follow has nothing on Kengan or Sandrovich's work.

"Meanwhile the other Literal Supersonic feat that exists in the author's works, is not really inconsistent.

Bar those inconsistencies with that, the side of supersonic feats are the ones that win out in terms of higher sconcret existence"

What does literally any of this even mean

Rei Scaling

Rei is literally the fastest fighter in the tournament, who, prior to the amp he got when he fought Kuroki, was caught by Raian quite casually, the same Raian who we've established fails to properly dodge crossbow bolts when actually trying, so already we're not off to a great start.

In any case, no, Kuroki does not "a semblance of Rei's speed", we literally do not know fast Kuroki is moving, because they state in huge bolded text that the entire point of Kuroki's fighting style is centered around the concept of "MOVE BEFORE HE MOVES".

These aren't supersonic booms, it could easily just be circle effects, you have zero proof of this claim. And "his speed is described as lightning fast" end me dude.

Let's all be aware Himuro's striking speed of 15 m/s was said to be exceptional, Akoya one of the fastest people in the tourney throws four jabs in 76 milliseconds was treated as extremely fast, and Gaolang, the fastest striker in the tournament , throws out 13 jabs in the span of a breath, I shouldn't have to say there is literally zero way to make that "supersonic" and no the weight of the glove literally would not affect it by the several orders of magnitude it'd need to be for it to be supersonic.

Kengan is not fast, stop
 
The Niko stuff is merely to show that the statements are bullshit. He would also scale to Kuroki, as he knew Niko well enough to tell Ohma had surpassed him in Redirection Kata and noted he was strong. I keep wondering why the statement matters when we ignore statements that contradict feats.

All the time.

Literally so much is ridiculous.

The Rei stuff you bring up is irrelevant. The fighters could already see a FTE attack clearly, Bando's ,and in the Kuroki fight he was so fast that he became invisible to the fighters, which would put him above that by a big margin too. Despite this, the link above has Kuroki moving after Rei starts rushing him and has already gotten close. I am not gonna say he scales to this, but this again puts the intent of the author and what we are shown into doubt.

You can keep up with the "reaction speed numbers" stuff all you want. The fact they can see and Hatsumi can react to a FTE attack already tells us enough about how reliable that statement is.
 
Let me start off by pointing out how suspicious it is that a new account suddenly dropped a comment here out of the blue, that strikes me as.. well something else.


Raian at this point in the story was actively trying to use technique , and was also dodging attacks , literally the page after he fails to react to the crossbow he dodges an attack.


Raian for one, is a static fighter, Raian is the most reckless out of the entire Kure Clan and would rather tank attacks as opposed to dodging them. Him dodging a morning star like weapon is due to that weapon packing a lot more power than a Crossbow would, and even then Raian didn't have to perform any crazy dodging maneuvers, just a simple tilt of his head. This argument your using in particular doesn't make much sense.


This has been immensely bothering me all thread, even ignoring the narration blatantly states Niko cannot do anything after a bullet is fired, Niko literally scales to no one, the only interaction Niko has with anybody in the main KAT is young Ohma and by association young Kiryu and he trounces Ohma without much of a fight.


Said statement is contradicted within the same chapter as Niko successfully deflected all of them after they've been fired. And what the **** are you on mate? Niko was literally killed by another Niko, this claim makes no sense and is blatantly false. I'm not gonna bother replying to your next tid bid of Niko's stuff either as you provided no real counter arguments other than accusing users of clinging desperately.


Rei is literally the fastest fighter in the tournament, who, prior to the amp he got when he fought Kuroki, was caught by Raian quite casually, the same Raian who we've established fails to properly dodge crossbow bolts when actually trying, so already we're not off to a great start.


Context matters a lot here, for starters that was far from Rei actually trying to fight Raian. Raian caught the hand of a restricted Rei who wasn't even putting effort in like he does with his Kengan Fights. Again, this argument hold up either. Next


In any case, no, Kuroki does not "a semblance of Rei's speed", we literally do not know fast Kuroki is moving, because they state in huge bolded text that the entire point of Kuroki's fighting style is centered around the concept of "MOVE BEFORE HE MOVES".


Blatant misinformation, Kaiwan Style isn't centered around the concept of moving before the opponent moves, it just offers the ability to use foresight if trained enough, and nobody aside from Agito can use Foresight to the extent that Kuroki can. And even with Precognition based abilities it doesn't allow you to react to attacks that are much faster than you, Rei was explicitly stated to be going FTE and Kuroki still reacted properly. He'd need to be comparable to Rei's speed to an extent in order to react and counter even when taking Motionless into account.


These aren't supersonic booms, it could easily just be circle effects, you have zero proof of this claim. And "his speed is described as lightning fast" end me dude


Alright, this one is downright pathetic and laughable at best. Those are most certainly sonic booms, it isn't just a circle effect. Why the **** would we assume that it's just circle effects when we're talking about a speedster who's also moving FTE? Makes no sense and "lightning speed" is a hyperbole which nobody argued for being legit. Talk about grasping straws.


Funnily enough you've completely ignored Bando's whips, The Guardian's Whips, Rei going FTE in the same scan with Raian you used as an anti feat and so on and so forth.
 
Yeah I was noticing how many times the upvotes were given by that new poster and it doesn't look like they're new around here... Not gonna accuse anyone, that's just silly but it is suspicious. Edited and not pointing fingers at Xulrev

Anyway Prince of Counters pretty much said everything

Also even I didn't believe the lightning thing read my context my suspicious dude. And the supersonic booms and the circle of effect are both assumptious on their own. It just happens that supersonic has backings
 
Mostly staying in the 'For' category. Kengan already had plenty of feats to back up their speed being Supersonic+ at minimum. And Prince of Counters lived up to his name alongside Fortes on some of what I would've said anyway


P.S - Kuroki is clearly tier 0. So this thread was pointless from the start
 
Let me start off by pointing out how suspicious it is that a new account suddenly dropped a comment here out of the blue, that strikes me as.. well something else.

Really? I get your points and understand why you disagree with Xul here, but heavily implying that he made a new account for the sole point of arguing things he was already going to argue seems paranoid at best. They're new, so what? Are new people not allowed to make detailed comments or something?

Also @Ciruno Fortes mind replacing your ******** links? They're 403'ed as of now.
 
Don't misconstrue what I said, I never implied that Xul made a sock, as a friend of his I know for a fact he wouldn't make a sock. Hence why I didn't say the sock was made by Xul. I'm also pretty sure Xul himself knows I wasn't saying he created a sock.
 
@Qawsed, apologies. Do you have any particular manga you use?

I made sure to put in the chapters and pages there just in case the links aren't working.

Also yeah I'm apologizing in advance if I came off as accusatory
 
@Prince

You're factually incorrect on A LOT, sorry to disagree with you.

> Raian for one, is a static fighter, Raian is the most reckless out of the entire Kure Clan and would rather tank attacks as opposed to dodging them. Him dodging a morning star like weapon is due to that weapon packing a lot more power than a Crossbow would, and even then Raian didn't have to perform any crazy dodging maneuvers, just a simple tilt of his head. This argument your using in particular doesn't make much sense.

This doesn't engage the factual scans of him dodging every attack every opportunity he has in the Guardians vs Raian fight. You're trying to argue he wouldn't dodge an attack when he...literally tries to dodge every single attack and JUST SO HAPPENS to not dodge this single instance? You're stretching credulity to the extent of non-existence.

> And what the **** are you on mate? Niko was literally killed by another Niko, this claim makes no sense and is blatantly false. I'm not gonna bother replying to your next tid bid of Niko's stuff either as you provided no real counter arguments other than accusing users of clinging desperately.

Incorrect. Niko was killed after a series of successive fights when he was heavily wounded . Niko had to restrain Ohma in berserk Advance, THEN fought the other Niko and KILLED THE OTHER NIKO, and THEN Taira Genzan challenged Niko under unknown circumstances and was slain from cumulative fatigue and injuries. We literally cannot scale Niko to anyone in the series since he was taking damage from Ohma due to holding back, then fought another Niko offscreen and killed that Niko, and then died to someone after two successive back-to-back battles. You're objectively wrong and misremembering the manga here, do NOT accuse others of lying when you yourself are in the wrong please.

> Context matters a lot here, for starters that was far from Rei actually trying to fight Raian. Raian caught the hand of a restricted Rei who wasn't even putting effort in like he does with his Kengan Fights. Again, this argument hold up either. Next

Weird how Rei said he was going to break his vow to not kill right before assaulting Raian, guess you forgot that context too, eh? Sure seems like effort to me when he outright says he's going to break his only promise he's made to the love of his life?

> And even with Precognition based abilities it doesn't allow you to react to attacks that are much faster than you, Rei was explicitly stated to be going FTE and Kuroki still reacted properly. He'd need to be comparable to Rei's speed to an extent in order to react and counter even when taking Motionless into account.

Very untrue. Kuroki explicitly timed Rei's lightning flashes so that he could pre-move them, even whilst watching him fight another fighter. It's why Kuroki.....explicitly moves before his opponent. I don't think you're grasping the base point here, of course he's not as fast....because he moves, BEFORE, Rei moves. There's no reaction here.

> Alright, this one is downright pathetic and laughable at best. Those are most certainly sonic booms, it isn't just a circle effect. Why the **** would we assume that it's just circle effects when we're talking about a speedster who's also moving FTE? Makes no sense and "lightning speed" is a hyperbole which nobody argued for being legit. Talk about grasping straws.

Funny how if they're supposed to be sonic booms, no boom is commented upon, hell at least for Bando you have have Jerry Tyson comment on a roar before the concrete explodes. So if there were a sonic boom, Jerry would have commentated it since we have previous evidence showing us he will commentate upon extraneous noises.

TL;DR I think you might refresh yourself on Kengan before carrying on conversation in this thread, and I say that as a friend because you were factually mistaken on at least two points, and arguably mistaken on all others.
 
So with all that said and done:

The fastest fighter in-series scales to being unable to time crossbow bolts. That's about where we are at, and nothing can take away this objective fact.

The rest is misinformation or mistaken context, as I've proven time and time again.

I think this is simply objectively in my argument's favor
 
If it isn't clear that I'm still supporting Xul's stance on this matter, I am.

As a quick reminder, this is not the place to be throwing around accusations of sockpuppeting. If you seriously think a user is breaking the rules in such a way report it on our Rules Violations Reports thread.
 
I'd suggest toning down the snarky attitude there.

And @Dargoo

Prince never had the intention and just noted surprise. I'm the one who commented on it and IMMEDIATELY took it back
 
What's the new revisions? I'm working on a message right now.


Fun part. It can come off as a surprise to certain enemies if their combatant just suddenly stopped dodging leaving them usually vulnerable for an attack. This happened before. In fact, the enemy was visibly surprised that Raian took the hit and considering the fact that he needed two hands to snap someone's neck, I'd say the surprise of Raian taking the hit worked well. Yes, Raian was indeed dodging all those attacks. I was wrong to say he's not the dodgy type. Then again anyone would have the brain cells to dodge those more 'damaging' attacks that leaves you bleeding. But in comparison, taking a hit from a crossbolt is less lethal than a sickle or giant hammer if you're hit on the right spot. Not to mention that the first page shows him seemingly getting hit on the head, but revealing Raian took it on the shoulder instead

EDIT Actually yeah. Looking back at said page, the angle for the arrow should not have looked like that. The impact should've hit him straight on yet the 'impact marker' is a bit higher than the arrow. So Raian literally reacted to the attack by shifting his shoulder.

Kengan Ashura - C180 (On ********) Not linking the pages

Niko part I won't comment since I don't think this is relevant to speed.

Raian reacting to Rei on his base form is a scaling chain. Considering how he's able to react to base Ohma just fine who dealt with that supersonic whip, this isn't necessarily an anti-feat. If anything his reckless nature (By this I mean he's willing to take a hit to take advantage of an enemy) is still what led to him being hit by that crossbow. By the way the cross bow was pulled midway as he was dashing through.


The precognition move and idea is true. Everything is true yes. But this is Heavily contradicted by numerous onscreen effects of characters moving AFTER the opponent has already moved. Even if the author has a different meaning to them, feats happen. Death of the Author exists for a reason.


A narrator doesn't need to tell every feat performed by everyone. Onscreen effects exist for a reason. That said I'd like for us to not use this one so much. In the first place, those are numerous speed multipliers for Rei that I'm sure would easily put him at several times above his regular speed.


I get what you're going for Xul, and many of your points are consistent. But then the existence of the contradictions from the author's statement of precognition (on both the bullet dodging feats by Niko and Gensai, and the statement of Rei) are big. It's also important that Gensai himself in the past conveys that predicting the path of a bullet and still blocking it before it can reach him with heavy pots (A speed feat by itself and not just precog) and it's also used as a comparison of Rei and a bullet. The existence of a supersonic feat by a mook. Many of those contradicts several Speed Ceilings for the characters.

The milisecond issue and limits by Akoya and Doctor Hanafusa being the fastest in reflex is confusing when you have the likes of Rei performing multiple speed multipliers and Gensai himself being shocked at how fast Rei is.

The fight he had, is a heavy implication that Rei moves faster than a bullet prior to using more of his multipliers.
 
Death of the Author exists for a reason.

Death of the Author does not apply in this case. DoA applies when the author, out of story, makes a contradicting statement like SoL Harry Potter or the Luther Strode author saying the characters are only 50% better than IRL human athletes. The narration occurs in the story itself, so DoA has no basis to be used.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
Let me start off by pointing out how suspicious it is that a new account suddenly dropped a comment here out of the blue, that strikes me as.. well something else.
Click to expand...
I saw this thread, decided to make an account, and agree with Xulrev, Qaws, and similar people here and wished to debate points, is that actually wrong??? That you need to preface your argument with an attack on character is something else, man.

Anyway Xulrev made most of the points I probably would have, but just to add on further to his points while refuting yours:

Niko Scaling

"Niko was killed by another Niko"

Who, also, was not in the Kengan Annihilation Tournament, please engage with my actual point, please.

"He scales to someone else who scales to literally no one" is not a meaningful counter versus "he scales to nobody we're trying to attribute the 'Hypersonic' to". Again, Niko could be supersonic or bullet timing or whatever, he's still massively faster and stronger than young Ohma, and we have zero idea of how he compares to the KAT at large.

Sonic Booms

I was too tired last night to find them, but there's several instances in the manga where we see similar effects, from people who are not giga amped Rei, who also literally aren't even that fast period.

Is post coma Ohma hitting Kiryu with a random supersonic punch here?

Is Nikaido Ren hitting at supersonic speeds?

Is the aforementioned Gaolang who literally does not hit at supersonic speeds and is blatantly the fastest striker in the tourney hitting at supersonic speeds?

So, yes, the fact that you genuinely have provided zero proof for it being a sonic boom, and the fact nobody in-universe comments on it or has their ears destroyed from it, probably means, hey, it's probably not a ****** sonic boom.

What I ignored

I was purely engaging with the facets of the response I was, you know, responding to. I think there's been more than enough tangible evidence provided elsewhere in this very thread to show Bando's whip is slow or no one meaningfully scales to it or whatever, I was only focusing on that singular response. A Guardian using a whip also does not mean they punch at supersonic speeds, that's utterly ridiculous, I guess my dad is hypersonic because he's a big gun guy.

And "Rei is going full FTE" lol. Then it's a slow FTE, quite slower than crossbows, it's not like FTE has some number associated with it inherently.
 
Ultimately I agree with Xul after having a discussion with him but there are several things wrong with the comment above.


Who, also, was not in the Kengan Annihilation Tournament, please engage with my actual point, please.


Because he was killed? By another character? And Ohma has literally surprised Niko when it comes to the Redirection Kata, the same Kata Niko used to deflect said bullets. While i agree that it can't be used, claiming Niko can't be scaled to others is asinine.

"He scales to someone else who scales to literally no one" is not a meaningful counter versus "he scales to nobody we're trying to attribute the 'Hypersonic' to". Again, Niko could be supersonic or bullet timing or whatever, he's still massively faster and stronger than young Ohma, and we have zero idea of how he compares to the KAT at large.


False, Niko Tokita is a scalable character. Nobody is suggesting that Young Ohma is >>> Niko but he's better than Niko in regards to the Redirection Kata, I.E he scales to that feat.


I was purely engaging with the facets of the response I was, you know, responding to. I think there's been more than enough tangible evidence provided elsewhere in this very thread to show Bando's whip is slow or no one meaningfully scales to it or whatever, I was only focusing on that singular response. A Guardian using a whip also does not mean they punch at supersonic speeds, that's utterly ridiculous, I guess my dad is hypersonic because he's a big gun guy.


Bando's whips aren't slow, not even in the slightest. That's blatant downplay considering Hatsumi of all people could barely react to it. The last part of your argument doesn't make sense either and is a complete and total straw man Fallacy. First of all, dodging a whip going at such speeds would be comparable to the speed of the whip. Your dad isn't hypersonic unless he can dodge said bullets, don't misconstrue arguments to your own benefit.
 
@Qawsed

I see, my mistake on that. The use of it in Baki confused me. Thanks for clarifying. Though I'm gonna say my other points reside, I was just using the wrong term.

@Poly

Fair on that first part, apologied on my take on that too.

Though really the sonic booms are more supported by the whole Younger Gensai thinks a bullet is slow, when Current much more experienced Gensai is shocked at being 'temporarily' blitzed by Rei. Which is a way of well... Saying that Rei's speed is really that much faster.

In any case the crossbow feat is adressed above, I'm not touching Bando since I actually think it's impossible to get a good speed rating on that.


Also, welcome to VSB, I hope you enjoy your stay. You won't usually get moments like that since new users would typically make mistakes lol. No one usually starts off with good points and arugments so a good debater is always welcome here.
 
@Prince

I probably won't continue further on our discussion since it seems we're roughly on the same page.

@Ciruno

Sonic Booms

Kuroki didn't perceive the bullet man, I don't know how else to tell you . He also literally couldn't perceive Rei's fastest Flash. And again we see that "circle" effect other times in the manga, even though Rei with his Rino amp was stated to be the fastest fighter, and we also see the circle effect for people who demonstrably aren't supersonic.

Crossbow

The speed of a hand crossbow like that varies quite a bit, but to my understanding usually average out at around 250 feet per second.

From the Akoya calc posted at the top of the thread, we're assuming Raian is comparable to or maybe slightly slower than people who are reacting in less than a millisecond, and who are moving over five times the speed of sound. That scaling makes sense, Cosmo beats and keeps up with Akoya, Ohma fights Cosmo, Ohma and Raian are pretty equal though Raian is stronger.

So, just for simple maths, a crossbow bolt travels a whopping 7 centimeters in the timeframe it takes for Raian to react once, and Raian can move his body 22 times faster than the bolt. For reference, Raian could literally swing his body in and out of the path of the bolt multiple times before it reached him. Even if we bumped these numbers down to something more conservative, say, Raian reacts in 5 ms and moves his body at supersonic speeds, that's still utterly ridiculous.

You and other people have already seen the multitude of scans that show Raian was actively trying to dodge attacks; I won't bother reposting them. Raian 'reacting to the bolt and shifting his shoulder' is not the action of a man who's moving around at supersonic or hypersonic speeds and reacting over 40 times faster than the average human. He'd literally be on top of the man firing the bolt before it even was a foot away from the bow.

Bando

At least we agree on this.

Thanks for the rest.
 
@Sonic Booms

He didn't perceive it, yet still moved enough distance to cover the same ground for both situation. The statement "Slower than I thought" is definitely said and definitely holds value here I'm afraid. No matter what, onscreen feats show them moving AFTER the bullet/Rei has moved


I did, and you are also aware that doesn't mean Raian is not always the dodging type against attacks that can't harm him or can barely do damage him. In this case, the crossbolt that is less lethal than say a giant sickle or giant ball of iron.

And issue of movement speed. The White Guard clearly aimed for the central mass of Raian and Raian was already heading for him. Yet he moved his body enough to react to it. If Raian dodged by moving his body to the side and then moving again, that merely goes back to the cycle of him repeatedly dodging attacks in a disadvantegous 2v1 scenario. Him taking the hit surprised the enemy, and left him more open to said neck breaker.

It's not an action of a man who carefully fights. It's a man who takes advantage of scenarios at the cost of damage.

Also there's still the supersonic whip thing. I'm not talking about the Bando whip. I'm talking about a mook performing a supersonic feat which is still yet to be talked about much.


Gtg now though, I'll let the others take over
 
Death of the Author is an extremely overused logical tactic in battleboarding, and it should be a lot harder to prove than simply 'gotcha!'-ing a few details that the author possibly missed and claiming further comments from them are bunk as a result. You need to prove consistent unreliability for author statements to even bring it up, and even then I'd be skeptical about being presumtuous enough to declare that the guy or gal writing the story has less of an idea about what they're writing than a group of fans online.

Writing isn't a perfect or consistent art by any means, and applying scrutiny to it should keep that in mind at all times.
 
@Ciruno

Kuroki

The "slower than I thought" statement does not apply to the bullet, we literally do not know what it applies to. You're comparing a vague statement from Kuroki to an entire page that diagrams out why Kuroki did not actually perceive the bullet and did not actually move after the bullet is fired, both of these are textual evidence, you're upholding something vague as gospel over a massive explanation in-universe.

"onscreen feats show them moving AFTER the bullet/Rei has moved"

No, they don't.

This album is all the visual data we have on the Kuroki bullet interception. Please show me where the man fires the gun, and we distinctly and provably see Kuroki move after it being fired, you literally cannot, and the one explanation we are given for this scene is that he used prediction to guess when the gun was going to fire, and moved the sand jar beforehand.

He does move after Rei initiates his flash here , but we do not know how fast this flash was other than 'vaguely faster than slower than a crossbow bolt', and he still couldn't actually perceive it.

Also, honestly...taking Kengan art literally in 100% of situations is kind of a large oof, my dude.

Raia

Your characterization of Raian is nonsense, and falls apart on itself, you're saying simultaneously Raian willingly takes damage to gain the advantage in scenarios, but also dodges attacks he thinks could hurt? Superhumanly strong men can barely dig into Raian with bladed weapons, but he also actively dodges blades? Raian specifically tries to counter attacks from numerous fighters at once would you like to show me where he willingly takes attacks to counter them here?

The rest of this is actually just headcanon:

"If Raian dodged by moving his body to the side and then moving again, that merely goes back to the cycle of him repeatedly dodging attacks in a disadvantegous 2v1 scenario"

You're literally just inventing this scenario and its showing, Raian is fast enough to blitz this man in general, he's also massively fast enough to dodge crossbows, and in this particular arc, literally everytime outside of this one instance, he dodges attacks, why did he not dodge the crossbow and blitz the man? Do you not get the staggering difference in speed between a hypersonic Raian and a crossbow bolt? Raian does not need to 'take necessary damage to surprise the man' crossbow bolts are going to look frozen to someone as fast as our purported hypersonic Raian.

If you have to make up stuff not in the scene to try and justify Raian as hypersonic, while also simultaneously saying Raian did in fact dodge the crossbow (???????) then this just sort of shows how shoddy the train of evidence bullet timing Kengan is on as a whole.

I don't quite know about the supersonic mook, but as has been said many times elsewhere in this thread, dodging a whip does not automatically make you supersonic or a bullet timer, a whip has one slow wind up and one extremely fast timeframe of its strike, proving someone reacts and moves in that time frame is massively hard, you can't even prove that of Ohma whip feat and I severly doubt it's true for the mook.
 
Kengan also has many statements of exact speeds or timeframes in which attacks occur or characters react, which remain generally consistent and far from the claimed supersonic speeds, just the ones I can outright remember:



And then again for posterity:

 
Honestly Kirbin seems to have hammered in the nail on this thread. The sheer wealth of evidence contradicting a few questionable calculations makes me fail to see the arguments against what the series clearly outlines to its readers. I'm noticing that a large number of talking points are being recycled on this thread, so if there's more debate to be had I'd greatly perfer if it's concise, easy-to-follow, supported by concrete evidence, and most importantly, new, please.
 
Just to add on a few examples to Kirbin's numbers:

The numbers all line up with each other, the intent is clear, the feats are all explained and categorized in such a way to line up with the notion that the series is not bullet timing.

People have argued the feats do not actually visually show this but not have presented any real proof, there is a constant misunderstanding over basic things like how whips work, headcanon characterizations of characters to try and waive away antifeats, and more.

All in all I really don't know what more needs to be done to prove the series is not hypersonic.
 
So yeah I think we seen all the evidence we needed to prove that Kengan isn't hypersonic. Suck to see it that, but hey you got to point out shit that doesn't really make sense.
 
Polychromatic012012 said:
Ciruno Fortes said:
Considering Raian's playstyle of literally going through anything with raw power and not use any techniques, I doubt he'd be the dodging type to be honest. He literally took all of Ohma's strikes and refused to use any techniques
Click to expand...
Niko Stuff
This has been immensely bothering me all thread, even ignoring the narration blatantly states Niko cannot do anything after a bullet is fired, Niko literally scales to no one, the only interaction Niko has with anybody in the main KAT is young Ohma and by association young Kiryu and he trounces Ohma without much of a fight.

Even if Niko were a bullet timer, or hypersonic, this is really just desperately clinging to whatever scrap of evidence you have here that even just one person in Kengan might be bullet timing, the rest of Kengan doesn't scale to Niko clearly at all.
Click to expand...
Niko scales to no one?!
except Setsuna's master already fought against Niko, according to story killed him (even as Niko was weakened) and then same Master got killed by Setsuna

and Young Ohma reacted to Niko and greatly damaged him [1]

and later Advanced Young Ohma seriously damaged Niko [2]

..............

also even fodder featless beings in verse have bullet level feats. according to story army of japan got defeated by Gurkhas [3]

and army of china got overwhelmed by wolves of heaven [4]

unless you are telling me entire of armies got defeated by people who are slower than bullets
 
What are the summarised conclusions here?
 
Infera28 said:
Niko scales to no one?!
Click to expand...
This is, again, another crucial failure to understand context on the part of the "for" group, to the point where I'm genuinely questioning if anybody in the "for" group even read the story.

"except Setsuna's master already fought against Niko"

Who was weakened and injured. The links you've provided in your own response show this, do not be dishonest.

"and Young Ohma reacted to Niko and greatly damaged him"

Who, prior to this, was blitzing the **** out of Ohma, and, despite wearing an 80 kg vest was capable of dodging Ohma's attacks for ten days' straight.

I'm sure there's a valid comparison of speed there.

"and later Advanced Young Ohma seriously damaged Niko"

Because he was trying to use a specific technique to get Ohma out of the Advance , they literally explain this on the panel you linked as well.

"unless you are telling me entire of armies got defeated by people who are slower than bullets"

Yes, I'm sure posting offscreen examples, that we literally cannot gauge in any visual capacity whatsoever because we don't know what happened in either scenario, is going to contradict the very clear textual examples posted over and over in this very thread about how the strongest and fastest people in this verse are not reacting to bullets. You also do not need to be faster than a bullet to dodge them.

It's so tiring to rehash the same points over and over. Dargoo has already stepped in and seemed to approve of the absolutely overwhelming train of evidence against, and the fact that the only thing the "for" side can bring up is shoddy offscreen examples says a lot.

I think the consensus is clear.
 
Poly, Inferna, chill out


Anyway I'm conceding

That said I do want to address your point Poly. Every artist has had questionable situations before. Using a single instance of a confusing panel doesn't mean everything else is 100% questionable. And even with that in mind that picture you linked regarding the art is at least interpretable that "He was hit" yet tilted to the side.


Don't put bullshit in my words friend. In the first place, it's a 2v1 scenario. Secondly, the Elite Mooks of the White Guards are alreadly labelled to be able to go toe to toe with the top tier fighters of Kengan. They still lose, but still able to keep up. I don't have to invent headcanons when it's easy to see what's going on.

It's really simple as Character 1A dodges Character 2A. 2B attacks. Character 1A dodge, Character 2B attacks, rinse and repeat. It's not an invented scenario, it's basic logic.


Kirbin's points however are the most credible here. Even though I disagree with some, the rest are just facts.


Anyway I don't think there's anymore resistance against this downgrade. This should be safe to add. It should be safe to finish up with this

@Antvasima
 
@Ant

Summarised, it has turned out that even those who were initially against the removing of bullet-timing as a possibility for the Kenganverse are now conceding the point/in support of it.

The easiest result here is simply a Discussion Rule precluding the creation of any calcs that would yield speed such that the verse is....well, bullet-timing, since any such calcs would objectively be based in flawed presumptions.

I'll be looking at how the verse's speed ratings should look within a day or two, so it might be best to leave this open for now to discuss
 
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