Kamen Rider Gaim Minor Revision

[Omazio2019]

With the new standard of Beyond-Dimensional Existence, BDE Type 2 is now qualify for Low 1-A to 1-A so I'm proposed giving Saver some extensions to his current tier and those involved.
Here is the last accepted revision: https://vsbattles.com/threads/gaim-simple-revision.150389/
Here are additional explainations of his BDE following the new standard.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence

The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, They walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen.H.P Lovecraft, The Dunwich Horror Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless. That is to say: A "beyond-dimensional" character does not take up any volume whatsoever, nor does it occupy a position in spacetime, nor does its continued existence trace a path through it.

Kugai Kudo after being died in Sengoku experiment, had lost his physical body and evolved in a higher plane of existence like Woman of the Beginning.

Spoiler

He — Kugai — had asked a question, but the man did not answer it. Instead, he pointed at Kugai’s waist.

「The power of Helheim, the power you used in the initial Sengoku Driver experiment…you call them Lockseeds, correct? Ryouma Sengoku attempted to use them to simulate the Golden Fruit. As a result, you lost your life as a human being, and now your existence has reached that of a higher plane, like that of the ‘Woman of the Beginning’. Fascinating, isn’t it? For the time being, as far as humanity is concerned, you’ve become much like Kougane」~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Intermission~

「Ryouma Sengoku initially attempted to create an Apple Lockseed by using a system that produced false Golden Fruits. The experiment was a failure, and he decided to abandon that approach. But he built off of the data from the reconstructed Apple Lockseeds to complete the Sengoku Driver…」

Saver kept talking as Zangetsu Shin continued to barrage him with attacks.

「No. It was not a failure. As the test subject, I lost my physical body, but my very being evolved into a higher plane. Ryouma Sengoku was a fool to have abandoned his initial theory!」

「Higher plane? What are you even talking about!? Who even are you?!」~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 3~

Whose existence isn't constrained by space and time.

『We’ll start by cutting straight to the chase. Kugai Kudou is an Overlord』

Hearing the word “Overlord” put everyone at a loss for words. Ryouma continued from within the video.

『To be more accurate, he’s something resembling an Overlord. He lost his physical body in the initial Apple Lockseed experiment and became a pure energy being. He’s no longer constrained by this material world. For that reason, he can appear in unexpected places and return from death many times over』

As Mitsuzane listened to the explanation, he remembered Mai Takatsukasa.

Ryouma Sengoku had ended her life in his quest for the Golden Fruit. But after losing her body, she became『The woman of the Beginning』, the one who observed and confirmed the final direction of the Golden Fruit.

As『The woman of the Beginning』, she was no longer constrained by physical space, and was even able to travel through time. Did this mean Kugai was the same kind of being as her? ~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 4~

Having transcended space and time, freed from physical bounds, therefore he possesses no future (or cannot continue exist within the worldline), detach from multiverse and overview its worldlines. The only thing keeps him in material world is the Driver given to him by higher God, the snake of Helheim.

Spoiler

Such a man who had transcended life and death itself.
He had become a transcendent being freed from physical bounds, integrated with all of creations.
He had surpassed time, surpassed space — but because of that, such a man had no future. ~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 4~

□ Time - Space (Kodansha Character Bunko ー『Novel: Kamen Rider Gaim』)
※ Instead of disappearing, Kugai Kudo becomes a pseudo-Overlord.
Wandering through time and space, he witnesses various worldlines.
※ Kugai Kudo encounters Sagara, who grants him the power of Genesis, enabling his return to the present world. ~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Gaim Series Chronology~

Immortal shape-shifter

Kugai Kudo lost his physical body in a lockseed activation experiment and drifted between dimensions in a mental body, but was saved by an entity calling himself "The Serpent", an incarnation of the Hellheim Forest. The "Serpent" gave him a device similar to a genesecore and a blood orange lockseed, and through the medium of a Sengoku driver, Kugai was revived in this world. Kugai disappeared again when his driver was destroyed by Sengoku Ryoma, but his mental body was still alive, and it is confirmed that he continued his evil plans after that, such as giving Banana Lockseed to Shura of "Neo Baron" and turning him into Kamen Rider Black Baron. ~Kamen Rider Official Data FIle: Kamen Rider Saver~

However, while operating in higher world, such thing is no needed.

Spoiler

They had to stop Kugai Kudou, no matter what. Mitsuzane shifted his focus back to what Ryouma was saying in the video.
「But his presence is quite weak. Normally, he shouldn’t be able to interfere with the physical world. That’s right, Kugai Kudou is truly like a ghost. The only thing that lets him have any kind of physical presence is his Driver」~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 4~

They were together in Kugai Kudou’s world.
They were Kugai Kudou, and they were the world itself.
They had reached a place of so-called omniscience and omnipotence, and were drenched in unprecedented euphoria.
And then — their physical bodies disappeared. Their minds had become energy of a higher plane, dwelling within the Saver System.~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 3~

Ryugen rushed in with the Dandeliner to catch Zangetsu in midair.
Below them was Saver’s lotus flower, which had lost most of its petals and had been reduced to the calyx.
「We’re done here, right, Takatora…?」
「Yeah. We’ve completely destroyed his Driver, so this should have finished Kugai Kudou off for once」
「—— It is indeed the end, and also the beginning」
「…!?」
On top of the lotus flower that had been reduced to a calyx —The sight of him was dim and faint, as if he were covered in fog. But it was undoubtedly Kugai Kudou.
「That’s impossible! He shouldn’t be able to exist here without a Driver!」
「That is correct, Takatora Kureshima. That Driver was what kept me staying in this world. But…I no longer have need for it」
「…You don’t need…?」said Mitsuzane.
Kugai Kudou smiled back at him. It was terrifyingly calm — a very dreadful smile.
「Yes. Once humanity has evolved, we shall no longer need this world. Now, the time has come for humanity to break free of its physical restraints and escape the cycle of life…!」
「By evolution, you mean…!」
Takatora’s voice was shaking as he realized the true meaning of Kugai’s words. Kugai’s smile was now completely skewed across his face, like a torn pomegranate.
「All seven billion humans shall become like me. They shall transcend life and death itself — and become true Overlords」
Kugai’s distorted laughter was accompanied by a golden light surrounding him.The light was so blindingly dazzling that Zangetsu and Ryugen found themselves completely swallowed up in it.
「Humanity shall attain enlightenment under the Bodhi tree! The time of salvation has arrived! I, Kugai Kudou, am humanity’s savior!」~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 4~

Armored Rider Saver Darkness Arms.
「I have become the Golden Fruit, and am now one with the world. You have no way of destroying me…do you finally understand?」
It was exactly as Kugai had said. Before, he had needed a Sengoku Driver to remain in the real world. But now, he no longer needed anything of the sort. This was a world created by Kugai himself.
How could one do anything to an intangible spirit of malice that had merged itself with the world? ~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 4~

Portrayal-wise, they could also be shown viewing a lesser plane as fiction, thus ontologically transcending its dimensions, while still operating on a higher notion of dimensionality native to their greater reality.

With the ascend to higher plane, he overviews the lower planes as stories, perceives the eternal time as just a single moment.

The first, most immediate sensation was color.
He was being swallowed by every kind of color in existence.
After that was every other sensation. Sound. Scent. Touch. Visceral sensation — no, everything. Everything was engulfing him.
Everything, a mixture of everything, enveloping him into chaos and beating around him like a storm.
The same state, recurring eternally — and yet all still in a single moment.
The infinite colors eventually condensed into shapes. What had once been an explosion of color had now become a myriad of different scenes.
Taking all of it in, he understood what the flood of sensations was. He had come to understand everything.
Everything before his eyes — everything he could feel was “the world”. Every space and every time was unfolding in front of him.
But there was no joy to be found there.
As he desperately tried to hold his sense of self together, he was drifting away through all of creations.
The infinite plane of worlds, each shining with its own history.
Countless stories of countless worlds, and with them — countless amounts of malice and hostility.
There was something wicked that treated mass slaughter as a game. There was something that resembled an angel of God. There were those who used monsters to kill each other.
Those who had evolved in a different way from Helheim. Those who were beyond death. Evil spirits who devoured humans. Extraterrestrial beings who imitated humans. Demons who wished to alter history. Those who resembled vampires.
And there were more. Those with the memories of the Earth. Incarnations of desire. Those who exploited the energy of the universe. Illusory demons born from despair. One hundred and eight artificial life forms —
Countless stories of countless worlds unfolded in front of him, all tied together by a thread of malice and hostility, made up of one common idea.
“Conflict” — the one thing they all shared was “conflict”. ~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 4~

Transcend the cycle of Destruction and Creation the absolute fate and unchangeable law of cosmos that a cycle that imprisons beings in the lower realms.

Spoiler

The first, most immediate sensation was color.
He was being swallowed by every kind of color in existence.
After that was every other sensation. Sound. Scent. Touch. Visceral sensation — no, everything. Everything was engulfing him.
Everything, a mixture of everything, enveloping him into chaos and beating around him like a storm.
The same state, recurring eternally — and yet all still in a single moment.
The infinite colors eventually condensed into shapes. What had once been an explosion of color had now become a myriad of different scenes.
Taking all of it in, he understood what the flood of sensations was. He had come to understand everything.
Everything before his eyes — everything he could feel was “the world”. Every space and every time was unfolding in front of him.
He was engulfed in delight and ecstasy. Now, at this very moment, he was near omniscience. Having lost his vessel of flesh, his spirit was now soaring, and he had surpassed humanity.
The colors exploded yet again. Another violent rush of sensations. And then, silence. ~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Intermission~

「Life is a cycle of death and rebirth. The world itself is an endless cycle of destruction and recreation. It is nothing but endless hell. We are confined within an unbroken circle」
He could hear a voice.
The voice was like that of a saint, one who came to save those who were lost and guide them towards the truth.
「All love has been lost. We are trapped in hatred. We can no longer reach anything. There is only suffering — but I shall overcome it, all of us shall overcome it. Once we are released from our physical bindings, our spirits shall sublimate, and we shall become one with all creations. One in all. All in one. There shall no longer be any suffering. This is our ultimate evolution」~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 4~

They were together in Kugai Kudou’s world.
They were Kugai Kudou, and they were the world itself.
They had reached a place of so-called omniscience and omnipotence, and were drenched in unprecedented euphoria.
And then — their physical bodies disappeared. Their minds had become energy of a higher plane, dwelling within the Saver System. ~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 3~

Sagara
A mysterious man referred to as “the serpent” by the Overlords, and who refers to himself as the embodiment of Helheim itself. He appeared in front of the humans who were involved in the world’s destruction and recreation, including Kouta Kazuraba. ~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Character Introductions~

TDLR: I believe Saver still qualifies for new standards of BDE 2 and get Low 1-A, and the people (Zi-O, Gaim, Decade, etc) involved will be extended to said tier.

• Agree:
• Neutral:
• Disagree:

 

[EddisherSound]

Getting Low 1-A is a minor revision?

 

[Omazio2019]

Getting Low 1-A is a minor revision?

I'm practicing Euphemism, Lol

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Following.

I am still getting my head around the new Tier 1 stuff, so I could be mistaken, but I honestly believe this could be higher than Low 1-A given that Buddhism has a significant influence on Gaim's novels, as evidenced by these excerpts.

『To be more accurate, he’s something resembling an Overlord. He lost his physical body in the initial Apple Lockseed experiment and became a pure energy being. He’s no longer constrained by this material world. For that reason, he can appear in unexpected places and return from death many times over』
As Mitsuzane listened to the explanation, he remembered Mai Takatsukasa.
Ryouma Sengoku had ended her life in his quest for the Golden Fruit. But after losing her body, she became『The woman of the Beginning』, the one who observed and confirmed the final direction of the Golden Fruit.
As『The woman of the Beginning』, she was no longer constrained by physical space, and was even able to travel through time. Did this mean Kugai was the same kind of being as her?

「Yes. Once humanity has evolved, we shall no longer need this world. Now, the time has come for humanity to break free of its physical restraints and escape the cycle of life…!」
「By evolution, you mean…!」
Takatora’s voice was shaking as he realized the true meaning of Kugai’s words. Kugai’s smile was now completely skewed across his face, like a torn pomegranate.
「All seven billion humans shall become like me. They shall transcend life and death itself — and become true Overlords」
Kugai’s distorted laughter was accompanied by a golden light surrounding him.
The light was so blindingly dazzling that Zangetsu and Ryugen found themselves completely swallowed up in it.
「Humanity shall attain enlightenment under the Bodhi tree! The time of salvation has arrived! I, Kugai Kudou, am humanity’s savior!」

The believers gathered in the surge tank had their Pomegranate Lockseeds in their hands, which were now glowing a bright scarlet.
In that one moment, all of their thoughts and feelings were synchronized through the Pomegranate Lockseed.
They were together in Kugai Kudou’s world.
They were Kugai Kudou, and they were the world itself. They had reached a place of so-called omniscience and omnipotence, and were drenched in unprecedented euphoria.
And then — their physical bodies disappeared. Their minds had become energy of a higher plane, dwelling within the Saver System.

Everything before his eyes — everything he could feel was “the world”. Every space and every time was unfolding in front of him.
But there was no joy to be found there.
As he desperately tried to hold his sense of self together, he was drifting away through all of creations (Sanzen Sekai).
The infinite plane of worlds, each shining with its own history.
Countless stories of countless worlds, and with them — countless amounts of malice and hostility.

「Life is a cycle of death and rebirth. The world itself is an endless cycle of destruction and recreation. It is nothing but endless hell. We are confined within an unbroken circle」
---
「All love has been lost. We are trapped in hatred. We can no longer reach anything. There is only suffering — but I shall overcome it, all of us shall overcome it. Once we are released from our physical bindings, our spirits shall sublimate, and we shall become one with all creations. One in all. All in one. There shall no longer be any suffering. This is our ultimate evolution」

Such a man who had transcended life and death itself.
He had become a transcendent being freed from physical bounds, integrated with all of creations.
He had surpassed time, surpassed space — but because of that, such a man had no future.

“You should have melted into the world and become one with my will. How did you manage to maintain your ego?” ~Kamen Rider Gaim Novel: Chapter 4~

The novel defines "transcendence" and "enlightenment" as follows: it will not only liberate humanity from the physical plane, but it will also essentially eliminate each person's sense of self (ego) or individuality in order to achieve a state of oneness in which all become one and one is all. The cycle of life that once bound all creations no longer holds them together. They are Kugai Kudou, the world itself, and vice versa.

This shows that Kugai Kudou's transcendent nature goes beyond quantifiable levels of transcendence, being superior to the physical world, having attained a state of "omnipotence and omniscience" in which he is one with all of existence and vice versa. Basically, a qualitative level of superiority.

Anyway, this is just my personal thought, so take it with a grain of salt. For the time being, I am leaning towards neutral.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Since this thread concerns BDE and 1-A issues, you can ask for the help of a few knowledgeable members on the subject here.

 

[the_doctor]

I totally agree with this, although they are in a higher dimension/story but it has been separated or freed from all material and non-material compositions (ideons)

This solid enough to be 1A ( holy the all gods and goddes in gaim will be a Outerves al )

But let the other thinks about this.

Bump.

We can wait some mod or whatever is that to be here.

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

I’ll be neutral here despite really wanting this, but we need Ultima and such so…

 

[Gonzalo]

I agree

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Ok I could see this being Low 1-A.

I think further backing would come from the multiple statements of a void existing beyond space, time, and dimensions. So even if Saver doesn't scale to it, the cosmology would definitely be Low 1-A for everything below the Real World.

 

[the_doctor]

Ok I could see this being Low 1-A.

I think further backing would come from the multiple statements of a void existing beyond space, time, and dimensions. So even if Saver doesn't scale to it, the cosmology would definitely be Low 1-A for everything below the Real World.

Good, but what's your reason behind this for not making this 1A

 

[Omazio2019]

Bump

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Good, but what's your reason behind this for not making this 1A

As of now, that's not what OP is arguing for and I'd prefer to play it safe.

 

[the_doctor]

As of now, that's not what OP is arguing for and I'd prefer to play it safe.

Good, can you at least bring some moderator? Like tagging them.

 

[Omazio2019]

bump

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

As of now, that's not what OP is arguing for and I'd prefer to play it safe.

heavily agree with you ngl

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

I guess since Ovens feel like it may work, it may work!

 

[Sir_Ovens]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Duedate8898 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @GarrixianXD

The gist of it is, Saver/Kugai Kudou has reached a realm of transcendence that is beyond space and time. In addition he is beyond the concepts of creation and destruction, which govern all of reality. There are basically no anti-feats because only the strongest in the verse bar those who have literal R>F transcendence would scale.

To add to all this, we know that human technology can reach a level beyond dimensions. As such, Kugai Kudou's realm should be beyond it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Unsure about 1-A, but Low 1-A I could see merit.

 

[the_doctor]

I hope this thread doesn't blow up, it would be messed up if a lot of people came

 

[the_doctor]

Bump, waiting for some moderators to come

 

[GarrixianXD]

Low 1-A is solid, but I don't see an issue with 1-A either upon reading the OP. I see that Kugai Kudo transcended material and dimensional existence, hence the difference between his world and baseline reality is not defined quantitatively. Adding that Kugai Kudou’s world is a plane of omnipotence and omnipresence, as well as integration with the entirety of creation, implies superiority over the physical Universe. That's pretty strong basis for 1-A imo (if not including anti-feats). Though, since the OP is only proposing Low 1-A, I won't go into further detail.

 

[the_doctor]

Since I'm not very active on this site, how many moderators do we need, to approve?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Probably one more or two.

 

[the_doctor]

Probably one more or two.

It seems like this will go quickly and be approved right away. But all of this added to their profile right away or does there have to be a little evaluation first?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

We need to evaluate scaling after this I would think.

 

[the_doctor]

We need to evaluate scaling after this I would think.

Will this thread be closed or remain open in general when it's finished?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Closed and then we'll open another thread.

Let me call more mods.

@Firestorm808 @Propellus @Planck69

 

[the_doctor]

Grazie! I'm pleased with your positive response, sorry to ask again if this will include a big minor revision in the future? And is this forum discord server open to everyone?